B&Q Refusing Cash Tranactions

I told ya

Vic_08 wrote: »

Yes.

They can require any form of payment they like.

Cash cannot be refused. If you refuse to accept legal tender in certain cases the debt is deemed paid. That's why it's called legal tender. If people could refuse to accept cash then it would undermine the currency. It could also expose people to uncertainty and abuse.

There are limitations eg where you try to use a box of 1c coins to pay a €100 debt.

It's a very long time since I've studied this area but the above is the general position. The relevant legislation also sets out the limits for the use of coins, use of large notes, etc.

BeardySi

I told ya wrote: »

Cash cannot be refused. If you refuse to accept legal tender in certain cases the debt is deemed paid. That's why it's called legal tender. If people could refuse to accept cash then it would undermine the currency. It could also expose people to uncertainty and abuse.

There are limitations eg where you try to use a box of 1c coins to pay a €100 debt.

It's a very long time since I've studied this area but the above is the general position. The relevant legislation also sets out the limits for the use of coins, use of large notes, etc.

*facepalm*

There is no debt at the till.

Read the thread, it's been pointed out MANY times...

L1011

I told ya wrote: »

Cash cannot be refused. If you refuse to accept legal tender in certain cases the debt is deemed paid. That's why it's called legal tender. If people could refuse to accept cash then it would undermine the currency. It could also expose people to uncertainty and abuse.

There are limitations eg where you try to use a box of 1c coins to pay a €100 debt.

It's a very long time since I've studied this area but the above is the general position. The relevant legislation also sets out the limits for the use of coins, use of large notes, etc.

The major issue here is that no debt exists in this scenario; no matter how you try to argue it.

The state and ECB absolutely do not give a toss about acceptance of cash; those days are over - people feeling that the numbers in their bank account actually mean something and work is what is important. Both would be delighted to get away from issuing cash.

Vic_08

I told ya wrote: »

Cash cannot be refused. If you refuse to accept legal tender in certain cases the debt is deemed paid. That's why it's called legal tender. If people could refuse to accept cash then it would undermine the currency. It could also expose people to uncertainty and abuse.

There are limitations eg where you try to use a box of 1c coins to pay a €100 debt.

It's a very long time since I've studied this area but the above is the general position. The relevant legislation also sets out the limits for the use of coins, use of large notes, etc.

As countless other posters have already explained the only situation where "legal tender" has any relevance is in the settlement of a debt.

All other retail transactions are "Invitations to treat" where no debt has been taken, no contract has been formed and no obligation to trade is in force UNTIL goods and payment OF WHATEVER TYPE BOTH PARTIES AGREE ON have been exchanged.

The only exceptions are refusal to trade based on prescribed discriminatory basis, only posessing cash is not one of these.

Juwwi

This situation in general must be a nightmare for Bertie Ahern who doesn't have a bank account.

SPDUB

StackSteevens wrote: »

I'm not going to second guess what the OP did or didn't do, but I am astonished that it took him until day 84 of the Covid 19 crisis, to realise that some retailers weren't accepting cash.

I have used a card but all the shops I have been in during these 84 days have accepted Cash so not astonished that the OP might not have realised some places aren't .

swarlb

L1011 wrote: »

I go find a shop with working kit.

I haven't used cash since early March and not sure I ever will again.

There are entire countries where cash was basically dead a long time before this started - Sweden for instance.

I wish people would stop doing this... we are NOT Sweden, or any other country for that matter, we are who we are, Irish. And we have OUR ways of doing things, OUR way, not Sweden's.....
Some, if not plenty of people here use cash, and cards, and even cheques.

As an aside, I've never been to Sweden. Do they have no form of currency whatsoever apart from plastics cards ? Because if they do have a currency, then cash is not DEAD in Sweden, just like in Ireland, someone must use it.

L1011

swarlb wrote: »

I wish people would stop doing this... we are NOT Sweden, or any other country for that matter, we are who we are, Irish. And we have OUR ways of doing things, OUR way, not Sweden's.....
Some, if not plenty of people here use cash, and cards, and even cheques.

As an aside, I've never been to Sweden. Do they have no form of currency whatsoever apart from plastics cards ? Because if they do have a currency, then cash is not DEAD in Sweden, just like in Ireland, someone must use it.

And "OUR way" now appears to be near total use of cards with multiple shops completely refusing to accept cash.

Sweden has physical currency, but nobody uses it. Most shops don't take it, most banks don't have any, ATM networks are getting switched off. Some single banks here have more ATMs than are left on the main interbank network in Sweden. They were down to 13% of transactions (by number, 6% by value, further down the report) in 2018 and the decline since then has basically been terminal.


That some people appear to have an emotional connection to physical cash won't make it come back.

Rodney Bathgate

Juwwi wrote: »

This situation in general must be a nightmare for Bertie Ahern who doesn't have a bank account.

He might have Revolut now. Assuming he has a passport.

phormium

I prefer to use cash, I budget by taking out one cash lump sum per week from ATM however I have been using contactless with credit card as needed. Woodies where I am take cash and I have only come across one garage/convenience store that takes no cash at all. Local diys etc take cash no problem.

Shop can decide policy, once it's well communicated then that's their choice.

Nozebleed

Sonics2k wrote: »

B&Q is prioritizing the health and safety of it's staff. And I believe all the stores have quite a few signs up saying "Card payments/Contactless only", or at least the two stores I visited do.

I imagine the OP didn't bother to read the signs.

jaysis lads..sorry for breathing.

parttime

My drug dealer hates when I pay by card!

Nozebleed

micosoft wrote: »

Common misconception. They cannot refuse legal tender for a Debt.

They can of course refuse to sell you something before the debt is incurred.

Unless OP was buying on credit he can't force them to accept any means of payment. They can they only accept sea shells if they feel like it. Well within their rights.

technically!!! no bare with me...i had handed the items over to the cashier. they were scanned and processed...so!!! would it be fair to say im debt at that stage of the process!!?

L1011

Nozebleed wrote: »

technically!!! no bare with me...i had handed the items over to the cashier. they were scanned and processed...so!!! would it be fair to say im debt at that stage of the process!!?

Nope. Absolutely not. Store still owns the items til they are paid or otherwise handed over via means of a credit agreement.

28064212

Nozebleed wrote: »

technically!!! no bare with me...i had handed the items over to the cashier. they were scanned and processed...so!!! would it be fair to say im debt at that stage of the process!!?

No. The items are not yours until you have paid for them (unlike an eaten meal for example, where the food has already been consumed).

Nozebleed

well..thanks for the replie folks, hope you all prepare yourselves for the fees and maintenace charges that are coming down the line.

L1011

Nozebleed wrote: »

well..thanks for the replie folks, hope you all prepare yourselves for the fees and maintenace charges that are coming down the line.

Costs me 0c to use my credit card and its unlikely it ever will

Costs me something like 30c to take cash out...

Nozebleed

thats all gona change...aib postponed their charges just before the pandemic.

swarlb

L1011 wrote: »

And "OUR way" now appears to be near total use of cards with multiple shops completely refusing to accept cash.

Sweden has physical currency, but nobody uses it. Most shops don't take it, most banks don't have any, ATM networks are getting switched off. Some single banks here have more ATMs than are left on the main interbank network in Sweden. They were down to 13% of transactions (by number, 6% by value, further down the report) in 2018 and the decline since then has basically been terminal.


That some people appear to have an emotional connection to physical cash won't make it come back.

Till the point arises that cash/paper/coins completely vanish from use, and are no longer 'manufactured' for use, means that people will, and do use it, both here... and in Sweden.
Regardless of any 'emotional' attachment. The only time I get 'emotional' as regards money, is when I don't have any.

Getting back to the OP's point, I called over to B&Q near where I live on the day it re-opened, and I noticed the 'airport style' way they had of lining up queues, I also noticed the staff outside organising the queue, and the many signs they had indication 'payment by card only, no cash'.
As fond of cash as I am, I had my card ready the next time I called.

L1011

swarlb wrote: »

Till the point arises that cash/paper/coins completely vanish from use, and are no longer 'manufactured' for use, means that people will, and do use it, both here... and in Sweden.

People still used analogue mobile phones until the day the network was switched off. Didn't stop it being dead technology.

Most retailers that are not accepting cash now will never do so again. Once you've stopped dealing with cash handling costs etc you don't want to start it again.

thenightman

Queued for an hour to get into Halfords in Tallaght over the weekend and the security guy for the B&Q beside it told everyone who joined their queue that it was card only. You could see the type of person not listening to him (or the signs every 2m!) would be the same type to kick up a fuss about their entitlements when they eventually try to pay cash.

My mother recently received her pension and gets it paid into her credit union account, credit union has a debit card which she uses. Far safer than carrying or leaving cash in the house. I also got her a revolut card so she can pay on her phone for small amounts.

swarlb

L1011 wrote: »

People still used analogue mobile phones until the day the network was switched off. Didn't stop it being dead technology.

Most retailers that are not accepting cash now will never do so again. Once you've stopped dealing with cash handling costs etc you don't want to start it again.

I've been in business since the 70's, several of my transactions over the past weeks have been in cash, some via PayPal, some by card etc. I will continue to use all options till as such point as I cannot.
Funny you should mention 'analogue mobile phone' as I actually sold an old 'mars bar' Sony, complete with car kit, recently .... for cash !!
And I have an old Bakelite dial telephone hooked up in my home, and it works fine utilizing some 'modern tech' as the young people like to call it.

Cash is still very much alive, maybe you just move in different circles...

SPDUB

L1011 wrote: »

Costs me 0c to use my credit card and its unlikely it ever will

Only because the Government gets €30 every year

L1011

Pulse dialling will be disabled at some stage when openeir can be bothered doing it - you'd better get a convertor

Charles Babbage

Take the thing and leave. They can hardly call the Gardai or detain you in the shop when you are willing to pay for it.

tvjunki

B and Q are saving loads on handling cash, transaction fees, security vans for transporting cash. They also have lower insurance as less or no cash in the store.

Cash is still legal tender. I still use cash. I hate using cards it is hard to keep track of spending. I don’t log onto my phone to check my account like some people would.

Banks want you to use cards as they make money on this also. They pay less insurance In the cashless branches.

Guy:Incognito

dartboardio wrote: »

Yeah I know they can do what they like, just I think it's ridiculous.

Why though? If youre selling something, why should you be forced to accept anything other than what you want to accept?

You cant turn up to buy and car off someone and make them accept a cheque.

L1011

SPDUB wrote: »

Only because the Government gets €30 every year

Transaction fees on debit cards are the banks doing, over the 2.50 annual limit the state takes.

Cash out twice a week would have me at 30 quid anyway, rather ignoring the fact there's always been plenty of stuff you can't pay cash for anyway.

L1011

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Take the thing and leave. They can hardly call the Gardai or detain you in the shop when you are willing to pay for it.

They can, they will, and you'll be arrested.

Suggesting criminal activity is against very basic boards.ie rules

Guy:Incognito

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Take the thing and leave. They can hardly call the Gardai or detain you in the shop when you are willing to pay for it.

This is the sort of ridiculous rubbish that people in retail have to deal with. People who havnt a clue what they are talking about, dont know their rights, but are convinced they do.

1874

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Because there are a substantial minority of people who don't have bank accounts.

Some have credit union accounts, and some credit unions offer debit cards.

But there are still a good number of cashbook people.

They are why the supermarkets, at least, prefer cards but will take cash.

Also, there are some transactions where the retailer makes almost nothing if you pay by card, eg leap topup.

OP fyi, Woodies are doing the same.

Im all for keeping cash as one main option/means of payment, under current circumstances Im doing mainly card transactions.
However, how anyone can not operate a bank account?? is beyond me.
While I have a credit union and Id consider them large enough, I only think they offer debit cards, I just wouldnt need one from them, the Post office now offer a debit card, heard it advertised recently, but just wouldnt think it would suit me, but definitely sounds like an option for some.
I can see the cost rationalisation for some people thinking removing all their cash on one go might seem to make sense, and I think its better to withdraw cash in a largish amount rather than dribs and drabs, security might be an issue for some people by that method, would have thought a debit card with an post would make sense for anyone doing a transaction like pension etc anyway.

FluffPiece wrote: »

A lot of people tend to ignore signage on entry to shops. Chances are there was a sign on the way in. Most large chains that implement these policies to local stores, usually mandate signage be put up also for customer notification.

Recently at B&Q, I think there were signs up, what you couldnt miss was them announcing it to everyone in the queue, card transactions only.

lisasimpson wrote: »

For those who say cash is dead what will ye do when ye get to when yeget to a shop and card machine isnt working. Happened me in a chemist last sat. They asked me for cash. Also i was at a wedding a few years back and there was a nationwide system failure in the visa network. A lot of people got caught with no cash on them

I think its best to keep a few options available for this very reason, even different cards/card types.

Quackster

swarlb wrote: »

I wish people would stop doing this... we are NOT Sweden, or any other country for that matter, we are who we are, Irish. And we have OUR ways of doing things, OUR way, not Sweden's.....
Some, if not plenty of people here use cash, and cards, and even cheques.

As an aside, I've never been to Sweden. Do they have no form of currency whatsoever apart from plastics cards ? Because if they do have a currency, then cash is not DEAD in Sweden, just like in Ireland, someone must use it.

Was there in February, the first time in a few years. Had heard all the talk about how almost completely cashless it had become over that period but was still pretty taken aback to see how true that was in the flesh, so to speak.

Whilst there, I never had the slightest urge to use an ATM. Little did I know that just a few weeks later I'd find myself completely cutting out the use of cash in Ireland! :eek:

Rodney Bathgate

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Take the thing and leave. They can hardly call the Gardai or detain you in the shop when you are willing to pay for it.

Even if they call the Gardai, they can’t arrest you if they aren’t wearing their hats.

borderlinemeath

1874 wrote: »

Im all for keeping cash as one main option/means of payment, under current circumstances Im doing mainly card transactions.
However, how anyone can not operate a bank account?? is beyond me.

My neighbour is in his late 70's and has never had a bank account. During his working life he recalled how depending on his employer, he either got a cash envelope or a cheque that would go behind the bar in the local pub and he'd get the balance at the end of the Friday night!

If he ever needs to buy anything "on the internet" he gets his nephew to do it and gives him the cash. Prior to CoVid he would head to the post office on Friday for his pension and get it in cash. He wouldn't know what to do with a card at an ATM.

Bikerman2019

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Take the thing and leave. They can hardly call the Gardai or detain you in the shop when you are willing to pay for it.

What a stupid comment. Get the cuffs ready. The item is not yours until payment is ACCEPTED.

McDonalds in Tallaght is only accepting cards and the bill must be under 30 euro. They have completely minimised personal contact and for a bloody good reason.

Quackster

Nozebleed wrote: »

well..thanks for the replie folks, hope you all prepare yourselves for the fees and maintenace charges that are coming down the line.

And do you think there are no costs associated with using cash?

Several Irish banks have current accounts that are either free or have a fixed monthly charge. Then you have all the fintechs that have free offerings too.

And as has already been mentioned, credit cards are generally free of charges (apart from €30 yearly stamp duty) once paid off in full every month.

Duke of Url

That odd . My local b&q have large signs every few feet outside stating no cash.....Cards only.

Hoggy1983

People might actually have to start paying the right amount of tax on their earnings.

Quackster

L1011 wrote: »

Pulse dialling will be disabled at some stage when openeir can be bothered doing it - you'd better get a convertor

Pulse dialing on my exchange was disabled years ago! :eek:

(I only know because I held onto an old rotary phone for aesthetic reasons.)

L1011

Quackster wrote: »

Pulse dialing on my exchange was disabled years ago! :eek:

(I only know because I held onto an old rotary phone for aesthetic reasons.)

I've a feeling it goes if you get VDSL but should currently still work in most places on dedicated lines / old fashioned ADSL. The poster I know who'd know has been offline for a while! Could be even closer to dead than I thought though.

You can get adapters anyway, cheap.

1874

tvjunki wrote: »

B and Q are saving loads on handling cash, transaction fees, security vans for transporting cash. They also have lower insurance as less or no cash in the store.

Cash is still legal tender. I still use cash. I hate using cards it is hard to keep track of spending. I don’t log onto my phone to check my account like some people would.

Banks want you to use cards as they make money on this also. They pay less insurance In the cashless branches.

While I prefer having some cash, its easy to keep track of spending if you want in terms of the records being available, its just easy to go through a lot of money by just tap tap tapping, so I think you mean its more difficult to manage spending as you dont see it drain away.
B&Q and many places may save a fortune on cash use/handling costs but there is a certain consistency with reducing person to person contact in physical handling.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

My neighbour is in his late 70's and has never had a bank account. During his working life he recalled how depending on his employer, he either got a cash envelope or a cheque that would go behind the bar in the local pub and he'd get the balance at the end of the Friday night!

If he ever needs to buy anything "on the internet" he gets his nephew to do it and gives him the cash. Prior to CoVid he would head to the post office on Friday for his pension and get it in cash. He wouldn't know what to do with a card at an ATM.

ATMs have been in Ireland since 1980 ( I just looked it up), my recollection seeing them was definitely by 1985, thats 35 years ago, while it might have been possible for many to be in that situation then, there was still the possibility for someone then to get a bank account (likely with more ease then than now) and have become familiar with an ATM card, its not like cards just came out and he is too old to change now. I understand and Im all for retaining cash, only the cost of writing a cheque made me reluctant to use them, but there are easy convenient alternatives.
That person sounds like a prime candidate for an An Post debit card, sounds like a lot of reliance on other people to do their cash transactions is based on stubborn refusal to change, I think the option should be offered (Surprised An Post arent marketing to anyone receiving a Pension already to get it electronically onto a card, part for any benefits it brings but also to reduce their own costs in cash handling), at the least they should be encouraging it for new entrants to receiving Pensions, although I assume they dont force those in receipt to turn up at the reduced number ofpost offices to physically collectand that electronic transfers are presumably already an option to a persons existing bank account.

jimmycrackcorm

lisasimpson wrote: »

For those who say cash is dead what will ye do when ye get to when ye get to a shop and card machine isn't working. Happened me in a chemist last Sat. They asked me for cash. Also, I was at a wedding a few years back and there was a nationwide system failure in the visa network. A lot of people got caught with no cash on them

Unless it's the only faulty card machine in a shop, which is not likely for a shop with multiple tills; the shop can choose to accept offline transactions. They accept liability for it, but if you are using your pin then you become liable when your bank eventually processes it.

The OH had her Revolut charged fraudulently by someone she trusted with her pin. It was accepted, even though there weren't the funds in the account, as it was processed offline ( in this case by a hotel that used the card for authorization without funds for pre-auth, and then registered the charge after).

So go to a chemist that is more helpful, after all, what will you do if you haven't cash on you or can't find a working ATM nearby?

SPDUB

1874 wrote: »

However, how anyone can not operate a bank account?? is beyond me.

Try opening an account nowdays if you don't drive or go abroad

borderlinemeath

1874 wrote: »

While I prefer having some cash, its easy to keep track of spending if you want in terms of the records being available, its just easy to go through a lot of money by just tap tap tapping, so I think you mean its more difficult to manage spending as you dont see it drain away.
B&Q and many places may save a fortune on cash use/handling costs but there is a certain consistency with reducing person to person contact in physical handling.





ATMs have been in Ireland since 1980 ( I just looked it up), my recollection seeing them was definitely by 1985, thats 35 years ago, while it might have been possible for many to be in that situation then, there was still the possibility for someone then to get a bank account (likely with more ease then than now) and have become familiar with an ATM card, its not like cards just came out and he is too old to change now. I understand and Im all for retaining cash, only the cost of writing a cheque made me reluctant to use them, but there are easy convenient alternatives.
That person sounds like a prime candidate for an An Post debit card, sounds like a lot of reliance on other people to do their cash transactions is based on stubborn refusal to change, I think the option should be offered (Surprised An Post arent marketing to anyone receiving a Pension already to get it electronically onto a card, part for any benefits it brings but also to reduce their own costs in cash handling), at the least they should be encouraging it for new entrants to receiving Pensions, although I assume they dont force those in receipt to turn up at the reduced number ofpost offices to physically collectand that electronic transfers are presumably already an option to a persons existing bank account.

Stubborn isn't the word. He's the stereotypical batchelor rural Irishman, loves a drink, putting a bet on the horses and reading the newspaper. He doesn't need a debit card to do that. He just goes up to the shops and uses cash.

I remember going to the "pass machine" at the AIB in O'Connell St as a kid, sometime in the 80's. From memory it was quite high up, over a big granite wall. It was only a few years later that I opened my own bank a/c at 14 and got my own pass card. But I also recall my best friends dad who was going over to "USA 94" and had his own business for 25 years, had to apply for a credit card when he was in his 50s. If you're in a routine and you've no need for cards, it's harder than you think to make the change.

1874

SPDUB wrote: »

Try opening an account nowdays if you don't drive or go abroad

I agree, I did already point that out that it was likely easier to open an account years ago, when ATMs were introduced first and even since, that said, I think similar requirements exist for any new or even existing accounts, ie Credit Union, PO account and any card associated with them, I believe its a legal requirement to be able to prove who you are for having/opening/operating an account for reasonable purposes, so no one is getting away with it, that said, not having a passport ready to go is similarly confounding to me, at the least its an important item of ID which doesnt have your address, and Id prefer that than potential alternatives. I can see why someone wouldnt have a drivers licence if they dont drive, although I couldnt manage to not be able to drive as I find it less hassle, time consuming and costly than the alternative and thats despite the cost of ownign and operating a car. The latter really depends on an individuals needs, but I know I have been requested a number of times to update my personal information by credit institutions and reminded of the legal requirement even though I had already provided them when applying for a CC and having the card account for around 20 years.
Im not always in agreement with certain changes, some I might oppose. I was and still am fairly against the removal of the option of cheques, but I dont write them now myself as they jacked up the cost and there are alternatives, I suppose they are not as secure, take time and cost to process transactions, but I can see why some people would still use them for valid reasons, that said, you still need a bank account to utilise one from, not having an account of some description and not having certain ID accessible in this day and age is simply an essential requirement, its not like we are getting a barcode tatoo'd across our foreheads or chipped, its a fairly reasonable thing to have ID and a bank account.


As for paying by Card, I still prefer to have cash accessible an to use it, recently more of my transactions are by card, but I think something needs to be done about charges and Govt taxes on transactions if they want to encourage it more, as there is a saving in handling costs, even if there are other costs.

Ardent

A quick aside -
I hope cash never goes away. Without it, governments and banks are free to start charging negative interest rates on deposits - to stimulate economic activity etc. As long as cash exists, we are safe from that.

Fireball81

Ardent wrote: »

A quick aside -
I hope cash never goes away. Without it, governments and banks are free to start charging negative interest rates on deposits - to stimulate economic activity etc. As long as cash exists, we are safe from that.

Umm we've been in a negative interest rate environment for a while, maybe not retail customers but certainly corporates.

The lack of physical notes and coins would not prevent it from happening if the powers at be really wanted it.

coylemj

Ardent wrote: »

A quick aside -
I hope cash never goes away. Without it, governments and banks are free to start charging negative interest rates on deposits...

Negative interest rates came about as a result of 'quantitative easing' or 'bond buying' whereby central banks flood the market with cheap money.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the use of cash by consumers.

Flickerfusion

The only scenario where you'd have a right to pay with cash is where a debt is owed and needs to be settled, beyond that in a normal retail transaction, they can use any form of payment they like.

Ireland has relatively few 'unbanked' people - 95% of people over 15 have a bank account and almost every bank account has some kind of debit card available in this day and age, so the arguments for cash are a lot weaker than they were.

You would still, in any economy, create an issue for a very small % of the population who have no access to accounts, and in an Irish context we have fewer people in that situation than most of the OECD, but you'd still get a few odd cases, and I would suspect especially amongst people who have no fixed address or can't get access to financial services.

Bubbaclaus

Anyone that uses filthy cash during a pandemic is being inconsiderate of retail workers.