Allow me to explain why the 'All Live Matter' hashtag is awful.

osarusan

Sean.3516 wrote: »

So no, the police do not have a racial bias against blacks.

You are correct to say the tudy found they were more likely to hesitate when faced with a decision to shoot black than white suspects. But it also found that

Police participants displayed moderate-to-strong implicit racial bias (associating BlackAmericans with weapons on Harvard’s IAT)

You are reaching with your generalised interpretation of the findings.

AbusesToilets

Overheal wrote: »

That just tells me blacks are over policed.

Go look at the Closure rates for those crimes.

Perhaps if they weren't overly representated in the murder and violent crime stats, the interaction with police would be different. Then again, BLM doesn't matter so much when black people kill other black people

Overheal

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Perhaps if they weren't overly representated in the murder and violent crime stats, the interaction with police would be different. Then again, BLM doesn't matter so much when black people kill other black people

They’re over represented because they are overpoliced. It means police are closing more crimes involving blacks disproportionately.

Again: the closure rates Aka clearance rate for crimes. I hear you say “blacks commit half of all robberies” right? But only 13% of robberies are ever solved!

https://www.statista.com/statistics/194213/crime-clearance-rate-by-type-in-the-us/

AbusesToilets

Overheal wrote: »

They’re over represented because they are overpoliced. It means police are closing more crimes involving blacks disproportionately.

Again: the closure rates. I hear you say “blacks commit half of all robberies” right? But only 13% of robberies are ever solved!

https://cnnphilippines.com/.imaging/mte/demo-cnn-new/960/dam/cnn/2016/8/26/aliens.jpg/jcr:content/aliens.jpg

They commit over 52% of murders. That's based off of what can be proven, so going by your logic, the actual number could be even greater.

Have you got a definition for People of Colour yet?

Overheal

AbusesToilets wrote: »

They commit over 52% of murders. That's based off of what can be proven, so going by your logic, the actual number could be even greater.

Have you got a definition for People of Colour yet?

Stop playing the fool for a POC definition when you know who POC are. It’s pathetic.

The clearance rate for murder is 62%, the highest clearance rate for all types of crime. But hey it’s not like we ever put innocent people away.

Foxtrol

Sean.3516 wrote: »

People have the right to be infuriated when they are accused of being racist for not supporting a particular political movement.

How do you prefer someone describe people that don't believe they matter?

Yes, I cited my evidence in an above post in response to someone else.

Where is your evidence about fear being black?

Yes, and the fact that people not familiar with the evidence or the stats concluded from this one incident (and a handful of other incidents) that blacks are being systematically killed by police which they aren't.

You're saying we should accept police stats when this is the press release they initially gave after Floyd was murdered.

https://twitter.com/BrendanKeefe/status/1270458583625412608?s=20

And the fact that some "mostly peaceful" people wanted a new TV from Target but didn't want to pay for it.

Again, any evidence that the protests weren't 'mostly peaceful'?

Protests against police brutality and in favour of better police training would have been justified. Not mass rioting over a loosely based racial narrative for which no evidence exists.

There are dozens of papers on issues with race and policing in the states.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z

Not really since I haven't conceded the point that blacks are systemically mistreated in the West they way Catholics were in Northern Ireland.

I'm sure I can dig up British reports on how Catholics were in no way mistreated - that is the flimsy evidence you're hiding behind.

I don't support their point. I don't support their organisation. I do agree with their slogan which was picked for a very specific reason: The people who run Black Lives Matter know that most people agree that black lives matter. The picked an initial proposition that they knew 99% of people agree with and then shoehorned into that slogan a bunch of other stuff like the "systemic racism" narrative and the cultural marxism rubbish they talk about on their website.

I don't see 99% of people agreeing with it, I see plenty of fragile folk coming out with WLM, ALM, BlueLM.

Sean.3516

Overheal wrote: »

That just tells me blacks are over policed.

Go look at the Closure rates for those crimes.

The closure rate for murder is actually pretty high in the US, 62.3% https://www.statista.com/statistics/194213/crime-clearance-rate-by-type-in-the-us/

Are you seriously telling me that if that closure rate were 100% rather than 62.3%, then the percentage of murders committed by blacks would fall from 57% to 15% ?? Have you any hard evidence of that?

(I forgot to mention in my last post that in those 75 largest counties blacks make up 15% of the population.)

Overheal

Sean.3516 wrote: »

The closure rate for murder is actually pretty high in the US, 62.3% https://www.statista.com/statistics/194213/crime-clearance-rate-by-type-in-the-us/

Are you seriously telling me that if that closure rate were 100% rather than 62.3%, then the percentage of murders committed by blacks would fall from 57% to 15% ?? Have you any hard evidence of that?

(I forgot to mention in my last post that in those 75 largest counties blacks make up 15% of the population.)

You’re making your own straw men to fight with.

EmmetSpiceland

MORE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS BEING PUSHED ONTO US BY THE FG BOTS. THEY WON'T STOP UNTIL THEY HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DESTROYED THE PUBLIC FINANCES.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Overheal wrote: »

That just tells me blacks are over policed.

Go look at the Closure rates for those crimes.

I lost it at this.

When you’ve lost all other arguments... “blacks are overpoliced”

MontgomeryClift

www.eugenics.net/papers/GWMQ.htm

Foxtrol

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Then again, BLM doesn't matter so much when black people kill other black people

What are people ever trying to prove with bringing up that point?

People who live close to each other tend to commit more crimes on each other - it was true in Limerick, true in north Dublin, as much as it is true in Chicago.

Even if criminals were going out of their way to murder each other, is it wrong to ask more from the police?

Sean.3516

osarusan wrote: »

You are correct to say the tudy found they were more likely to hesitate when faced with a decision to shoot black than white suspects. But it also found that


You are reaching with your generalised interpretation of the findings.

Why does the implicit bias matter if it doesn't manifest itself in outward behaviour? The study concluded that it doesn't.

Worth noting by the way that science with regard to implicit bias is notoriously bad. So bad in fact that the people at Harvard how came up with that IAT test have said openly that their methods are still wholly unreliable and governments and corporations have no business using that test to try and "train" inherent racism out of their employees as many have been doing.

Overheal

Hunky Monster wrote: »

I lost it at this.

When you’ve lost all other arguments... “blacks are overpoliced”

When you’ve lost all other counter arguments accuse your better of losing all other arguments? Sad to see you lost!

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2018/10/12/policing/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/opinions/systemic-racism-police-evidence-criminal-justice-system/

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/02/california-police-black-stops-force

https://www.vox.com/2015/4/14/8411733/black-community-policing-crime

Foxtrol

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

www.eugenics.net/papers/GWMQ.htm

I think someone linking a Eugenics website is a new low on boards.

osarusan

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Why does the implicit bias matter if it doesn't manifest itself in outward behaviour? The study concluded that it doesn't.

This is what you claimed:

So no, the police do not have a racial bias against blacks.

But the study did in fact find an implicit bias against black suspects.

It didn't manifest itself in the act of shooting, which is what they tested for. That doesn't mean it doesn't manifest itself in other ways, which is why you shouldn't generalise the findings in the way you did (the authors of the study did not do that).

Sean.3516

Overheal wrote: »

You’re making your own straw men to fight with.

You literally said that the disproportionate crime statistics for blacks were evidence of over-policing. You said "go look at the closure rates for those crimes" implying that the fact that many crimes don't get solved means that the data is incomplete.
So I cited the closure rates and pointed out your argument makes no sense and you accuse me of strawmannirg you.

At some point you guys have to just deal with the fact that the data doesn't support your positions.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Overheal wrote: »

When you’ve lost all other counter arguments accuse your better of losing all other arguments? Sad to see you lost!

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2018/10/12/policing/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/opinions/systemic-racism-police-evidence-criminal-justice-system/

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/02/california-police-black-stops-force

https://www.vox.com/2015/4/14/8411733/black-community-policing-crime

You do know you can google “is the earth flat” and you’ll get 100,000s of supporting articles. It doesn’t mean I believe it. If you look PURELY at the statistics on the policing of black people you’ll soon find out you’re wrong, very very wrong.

Statistics.

AbusesToilets

Overheal wrote: »

Stop playing the fool for a POC definition when you know who POC are. It’s pathetic.

The clearance rate for murder is 62%, the highest clearance rate for all types of crime. But hey it’s not like we ever put innocent people away.

Who's playing the fool? It's a simple question.

Perhaps you're so hesitant to stand behind one because you realise how spurious a term it is.

Another deflection on your part there re: murder rates

Overheal

Hunky Monster wrote: »

You do know you can google “is the earth flat” and you’ll get 100,000s of supporting articles. It doesn’t mean I believe it. If you look PURELY at the statistics on the policing of black people you’ll soon find out you’re wrong, very very wrong.

Statistics.

These findings are based on those statistics yes. But as you already stated you choose not to believe it. So enjoy your bias we have nothing further to discuss, but you’re certainly out of your depth pretending to me you are an expert of the month of racism and policing in the United States.

Foxtrol

Sean.3516 wrote: »

You literally said that the disproportionate crime statistics for blacks were evidence of over-policing. You said "go look at the closure rates for those crimes" implying that the fact that many crimes don't get solved means that the data is incomplete.
So I cited the closure rates and pointed out your argument makes no sense and you accuse me of strawmannirg you.

At some point you guys have to just deal with the fact that the data doesn't support your positions.

Closure rates for crimes are nearly as a nonsense statistics as police data for use of firearms.

97% of criminal convictions are based on plea deals. Poor people are less likely to have a good lawyer that will take things to trial and are less likely to be able to afford bail so in many situations are better off accepting time straight away rather than waiting behind bars. POC are much more likely to be poor.

ExMachina1000

Some Burley fans paid for a small aircraft to fly over Manchester city's Etihad stadium with a banner reading "White Lives Matter ".

Burnley fc have said the fans responsible will be banned for life for the racist act

Sean.3516

Foxtrol wrote: »

How do you prefer someone describe people that don't believe they matter?

People are not objecting to the slogan because they don't agree with the slogan. I've said myself that I agree with the slogan. As I've said my issue with it is that when you march around chanting "black lives matter" you're implying that there are a whole bunch of people who think black lives don't matter. Nobody goes around chanting "the Earth is round" because most of us the agree that the Earth is round.

By the way, I think the "All Lives Matter" thing is stupid for the same reasons you and others have stated. As I heard a comedian recently say it's like if your wife asked you "Honey, do you love me?" and you responding "Babe, I love EVERYBODY!"

Foxtrol wrote: »

Where is your evidence about fear being black?

I have none because I don't care if people fear being black. I care if people have a REASON to fear to fear being black.

Foxtrol wrote: »

You're saying we should accept police stats when this is the press release they initially gave after Floyd was murdered.

https://twitter.com/BrendanKeefe/status/1270458583625412608?s=20

The statistics I cited weren't from a local police department. They were from the US Department of Justice correct as of 2016 (when the Obama administration still ran that department.) But if you have any issues with flaws in stats I've cited you're welcome to point them out to me or cite your own.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Again, any evidence that the protests weren't 'mostly peaceful'?

I agree they were mostly peaceful, although the violent minority had an outsized impact (curfews were imposed on entire cities because of the violent minority) that was largely unreported by the media. That's why I was ridiculing the "mostly peaceful" thing in quotation marks.

Foxtrol wrote: »

There are dozens of papers on issues with race and policing in the states.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z

Yes, more general stats on the fact blacks are disproportionately more likely to be shot by police none of which engages with the points I've raised which still stand.

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'm sure I can dig up British reports on how Catholics were in no way mistreated - that is the flimsy evidence you're hiding behind.

Again, care to point out how it's flimsy? Or if you have stats that contradict mine, please show them to me.

Foxtrol wrote: »

I don't see 99% of people agreeing with it, I see plenty of fragile folk coming out with WLM, ALM, BlueLM.

Again, people aren't saying all lives matter because they disagree that black lives matter. They're annoyed at being gaslit and called racist because they disagree with the broader points the BLM makes like that Western societies are systemically racist etc. etc.

oyvey

GSBellew wrote: »

I'll contra that with the point that making the black v white distinction is in itself contrary to the concept of inclusiveness and is racist.

This guy gets it.

Rodney Bathgate

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Some Burley fans paid for a small aircraft to fly over Manchester city's Etihad stadium with a banner reading "White Lives Matter ".

Burnley fc have said the fans responsible will be banned for life for the racist act

Pretty racist of the club. Would love to see the club taken to court to dispute the ban. Players forced to wear blm on their jerseys, but a wlm message is racist? Pull the other one.

Still waters

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Some Burley fans paid for a small aircraft to fly over Manchester city's Etihad stadium with a banner reading "White Lives Matter ".

Burnley fc have said the fans responsible will be banned for life for the racist act

Is that not racist also

Also i saw their goalie publicly condemn the banner, what a tool

joe40

Sean.3516 wrote: »

People are not objecting to the slogan because they don't agree with the slogan. I've said myself that I agree with the slogan. As I've said my issue with it is that when you march around chanting "black lives matter" you're implying that there are a whole bunch of people who think black lives don't matter. Nobody goes around chanting "the Earth is round" because most of us the agree that the Earth is round.

By the way, I think the "All Lives Matter" thing is stupid for the same reasons you and others have stated. As I heard a comedian recently say it's like if your wife asked you "Honey, do you love me?" and you responding "Babe, I love EVERYBODY!"


I have none because I don't care if people fear being black. I care if people have a REASON to fear to fear being black.




The statistics I cited weren't from a local police department. They were from the US Department of Justice correct as of 2016 (when the Obama administration still ran that department.) But if you have any issues with flaws in stats I've cited you're welcome to point them out to me or cite your own.



I agree they were mostly peaceful, although the violent minority had an outsized impact (curfews were imposed on entire cities because of the violent minority) that was largely unreported by the media. That's why I was ridiculing the "mostly peaceful" thing in quotation marks.


Yes, more general stats on the fact blacks are disproportionately more likely to be shot by police none of which engages with the points I've raised which still stand.




Again, care to point out how it's flimsy? Or if you have stats that contradict mine, please show them to me.



Again, people aren't saying all lives matter because they disagree that black lives matter. They're annoyed at being gaslit and called racist because they disagree with the broader points the BLM makes like that Western societies are systemically racist etc. etc.

Who exactly are saying All lives matter? Obviously it is true in the purely literal sense.
But in terms of people using it as a phrase to directly counter and diminish BLM, I'm not seeing that much of it in the real world.

BLM did not start as an commentary on racism in the western countries, it was purely in response to police killings in the US.

Granted its meaning has expanded, to encompass wider racial issues. But that means it is now a bit rudderless and means different things to different people.
But an honest reflection on race issues isn't a bad thing.

I'm not for one minute saying it is the only issue we need to worry about and I certainly think Ireland is not bad in this regard. We have our fair share of assholes but in general I don't think Irish people are racist.

tayto lover

Saw a statistic that the police in the US have killed far more whites than blacks.
If this is so then how is it wrong to say that all lives matter?

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Pretty racist of the club. Would love to see the club taken to court to dispute the ban. Players forced to wear blm on their jerseys, but a wlm message is racist? Pull the other one.

Let’s say ONE of those players didn’t agree with these BLM protests. Let’s face it there probably is one. But the repercussions for that player should he not kneel or wear that jersey would be career suicide. The BLM movement is a leaderless mob of goons with no clear objective and they would absolutely destroy that player. His life would be over.

And yet people continue to support it.

It’s gotten to a point where you can’t disagree with it in any shape or form and not be labelled a racist/Nazi.

Conversation is over. Debate is shut down. Agree or you’re against black people. If you don’t agree we will end your life.

Sound lads really.

Foxtrol

Sean.3516 wrote: »

People are not objecting to the slogan because they don't agree with the slogan. I've said myself that I agree with the slogan. As I've said my issue with it is that when you march around chanting "black lives matter" you're implying that there are a whole bunch of people who think black lives don't matter. Nobody goes around chanting "the Earth is round" because most of us the agree that the Earth is round.

By the way, I think the "All Lives Matter" thing is stupid for the same reasons you and others have stated. As I heard a comedian recently say it's like if your wife asked you "Honey, do you love me?" and you responding "Babe, I love EVERYBODY!"

It is more like they're shouting 'my house is on fire' and there are a mix of people saying 'what about all houses' and 'well I don't believe you because of xyz', you seem to fall into the latter group.

I have none because I don't care if people fear being black. I care if people have a REASON to fear to fear being black.

But you've ignored the multiple studies posted here and continue to cling to ones with incredibly shoddy data.

The statistics I cited weren't from a local police department. They were from the US Department of Justice correct as of 2016 (when the Obama administration still ran that department.) But if you have any issues with flaws in stats I've cited you're welcome to point them out to me or cite your own.

And local police departments collect the data for those studies. In many (I believe a majority) of places police are not required to capture any/all data points and no audit is carried out.

Pushing for systematic data gathering on use of force is one of the demands of protesters.

I agree they were mostly peaceful, although the violent minority had an outsized impact (curfews were imposed on entire cities because of the violent minority) that was largely unreported by the media. That's why I was ridiculing the "mostly peaceful" thing in quotation marks.

They had an outsized impact because that is what gets clicks/viewers. Multiple large protests have taken in many cities every day since the murder of George Floyd and they fell completely off the national/international news.

Yes, more general stats on the fact blacks are disproportionately more likely to be shot by police none of which engages with the points I've raised which still stand.

It highlights how poor the data is regarding police shootings. Given how it has been proven over the last few weeks that police officers have lied about incidents, despite knowing there was video evidence, how do you keep holding the belief that a) the data they have collected is accurate and/or b) that the missing data is not selectively left out (e.g., not filling out the race when POC are the deceased)?

Again, care to point out how it's flimsy? Or if you have stats that contradict mine, please show them to me.

As above

Again, people aren't saying all lives matter because they disagree that black lives matter. They're annoyed at being gaslit and called racist because they disagree with the broader points the BLM makes like that Western societies are systemically racist etc. etc.

From what I've seen, you haven't once made any broader argument that there isn't systematic racism in the US. What you've instead done is find one flawed data point and hid behind it to prove they don't have a point. I've haven't seen you deal with the impact of slavery, segregation, education, wider policing issues, the bail system, etc etc.

You're claiming that you are being gaslit but I don't see any evidence you've actually done anything to understand why they're saying that their house is on fire.