Allow me to explain why the 'All Live Matter' hashtag is awful.

MOH

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Interesting idea over rethinking policing in the US, from Illinois' attorney general - make police officers licenced like nurses, lawyers and doctors.

https://www.wbez.org/stories/illinois-top-legal-officer-wants-to-license-cops-just-like-doctors-hairdressers/9a8b6505-4283-4975-ad2f-8b653e96da73
“I think it’s the responsibility of the legislature to do what they’ve done for many other professions to have consequence for repeated misconduct or single acts of egregious misconduct,” Raoul said.

“If they have an egregious act of official misconduct or a pattern of such, they can have their license taken away such that they cannot participate in that profession anymore and that should be the same thing for a law enforcement officer who is capable of using deadly force in carrying out his or her duties.”

Doesn't that already exist? As in "hand in your gun and your badge"?

Surely the problem is more that there's no proper external oversight

oyvey

Foxtrol wrote: »

Can you please point to the huge BLM drive for this?

I haven't seen many protests demanding this.

These changes to actors that many here appear to be clutching their pearls about are being seen as token gestures that have little to do with anything people are protesting about

Probably everyone here would agree with you. They’re token gestures. And they’re sending the wrong message about what equality should mean.

Foxtrol

MOH wrote: »

Doesn't that already exist? As in "hand in your gun and your badge"?

Surely the problem is more that there's no proper external oversight

It basically doesn't exist and in the rare times a cop gets fired there is no database so they can move and become a cop somewhere else.

The cop that murdered Floyd had nearly 20 complaints against him, many very serious.

The cop that killed Tamir Rice, a 12 year old for playing in a park, had been deemed too emotionally unstable to be a cop in one town and just went to the town next door and became a cop there where he went on and shot the kid.

Foxtrol

oyvey wrote: »

Probably everyone here would agree with you. They’re token gestures. And they’re sending the wrong message about what equality should mean.

Why are they the wrong message?

oyvey

Foxtrol wrote: »

Like the Trump supporter shouting 'White power' at BLM protesters?

There are plenty of empty heads on all sides.

I agree. Anyone saying white power is a moron. We’re not pro-racism here, we’re anti-violence.

oyvey

Foxtrol wrote: »

Why are they the wrong message?

Because then black actors portraying white roles would have to step down too in the name of equality.

kildare lad

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

These people are stupid.like what the **** do you expect to happen.

https://twitter.com/TweetBrettMac/status/1277446069132103680

I seen a lot of edited clip of protesters being run over , well it's done to make it look like that . If you see the whole clips people are getting their cars surrounded , they're trying to open car doors and Rob the cars. But the media don't show that part

MOH

oyvey wrote: »

Because then black actors portraying white roles would have to step down too in the name of equality.

Also any Irish roles should only be played by Irish actors (which would at least have spared us Far and Away).

Foxtrol

oyvey wrote: »

Because then black actors portraying white roles would have to step down too in the name of equality.

That is quite a jump.

Actors and show runners are making their moral choices, it isn't being mandated by government nor even pushed from any mainstream protest groups (who have much more important issues to deal with).

1800_Ladladlad

Foxtrol wrote: »

That is quite a jump.

Actors and show runners are making their moral choices, it isn't being mandated by government nor even pushed from any mainstream protest groups (who have much more important issues to deal with).

There are pressure gangs of deranged militants online who figuratively hold a knife to the throats of these actors who are jumping rather than waiting to be pushed. The "moral choice" that they've made is not from "inner reflection and acknowledging their white privilege", they are simply assessing the risk and controlling the damage to their brand ensuring they comply with the white-eyed children.

Foxtrol

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

There are pressure gangs of deranged militants online who figuratively hold a knife to the throats of these actors who are jumping rather than waiting to be pushed. The "moral choice" that they've made is not from "inner reflection and acknowledging their white privilege", they are simply assessing the risk and controlling the damage to their brand ensuring they comply with the white-eyed children.

Just like the consistent boycotts called on by conservative groups or the online outrage from certain quarters for studios having the audacity to have female or non-white characters be the star of their movies.

At one point a white actor would have no problems going blackface, just like at one point a white voice actor would have no problem voicing a character of a different race. People and their morals change.

Companies, studios, and actors make their choice based on what they see is best for their brand. That has always been the way the world works, unfortunately the world is no longer moving in the direction you want it to be going.

oyvey

Foxtrol wrote: »

Just like the consistent boycotts called on by conservative groups or the online outrage from certain quarters for studios having the audacity to have female or non-white characters be the star of their movies.

At one point a white actor would have no problems going blackface, just like at one point a white voice actor would have no problem voicing a character of a different race. People and their morals change.

Companies, studios, and actors make their choice based on what they see is best for their brand. That has always been the way the world works, unfortunately the world is no longer moving in the direction you want it to be going.

Why do you keep trying to justify bad things by pointing out other bad things that have been done. Obviously people shouldn’t be putting pressure on studios to hire only white actors. That doesn’t make it right that people are being pressured out of jobs. I feel like we should be in agreement here.

Smith152

Foxtrol wrote: »

Just like the consistent boycotts called on by conservative groups or the online outrage from certain quarters for studios having the audacity to have female or non-white characters be the star of their movies.

At one point a white actor would have no problems going blackface, just like at one point a white voice actor would have no problem voicing a character of a different race. People and their morals change.

Companies, studios, and actors make their choice based on what they see is best for their brand. That has always been the way the world works, unfortunately the world is no longer moving in the direction you want it to be going.

And what films have people boycotted for their being non white or female lead actors?

Carfacemandog

MOH wrote: »

Doesn't that already exist? As in "hand in your gun and your badge"?

Surely the problem is more that there's no proper external oversight

Not quite, a huge problem with policing in the US is that when an officer does something egregious and gets fired or 'steps down' they often wind up just getting hired a department or two over. Whether this is because of poor or just no background checks on officers (ironic since in the US you get criminal checks for almost every job possible) or because of 'wink wink nudge nudge' agreements is anyone's guess and likely varies from one case to the next.

One police chief can ask for your badge and resignation sure, but another a few miles down the road can just give you another badge and let you be on your way.

With nurses for example, their registration to practice as one is often held by a central agency (often a 'college of nurses' body). When misconduct allegations etc are brought against nurses that do not reach criminal level (and sometimes when they do if it's substance abuse or stealing supplies, e.g. not directly harming others), they are usually investigated by these bodies and if found guilty, have restrictions placed on their licences (so for police this might mean nto being allowed deal with the public, in a gun carrying role, etc as opposed to a boss of theirs imposing such rules) or suspension/termination of their licence. When nurses apply for jobs in any facility they are screened, but are also checked through this local body for licence details, history, etc... if they are suspended or revoked this will immediately come back and thus places huge liability on the employer as they will be knowingly employing someone in a role that they cannot.

Of course, criminal convictions will almost always wind up in revocation or suspension of licences as well.

A centralised licencing system similar to other occupations like doctors, nurses, etc might help to reduce situations like those outlined in the following linked quite a bit: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/11/us/whereabouts-of-cast-out-police-officers-other-cities-often-hire-them.html

As a police officer in a small Oregon town in 2004, Sean Sullivan was caught kissing a 10-year-old girl on the mouth.

Mr. Sullivan’s sentence barred him from taking another job as a police officer.

But three months later, in August 2005, Mr. Sullivan was hired, after a cursory check, not just as a police officer on another force but as the police chief. As the head of the department in Cedar Vale, Kan., according to court records and law enforcement officials, he was again investigated for a suspected sexual relationship with a girl and eventually convicted on charges that included burglary and criminal conspiracy.

Yet there is no comprehensive, national system for weeding out problem officers. If there were, such hires would not happen, criminologists and law enforcement officials say.

Quantum Erasure

Foxtrol wrote: »

Just like the consistent boycotts called on by conservative groups or the online outrage from certain quarters for studios having the audacity to have female or non-white characters be the star of their movies.

At one point a white actor would have no problems going blackface, just like at one point a white voice actor would have no problem voicing a character of a different race. People and their morals change.

Companies, studios, and actors make their choice based on what they see is best for their brand. That has always been the way the world works, unfortunately the world is no longer moving in the direction you want it to be going.

it's called 'acting'. dahling

VicMackey1

Foxtrol wrote: »

Just like the consistent boycotts called on by conservative groups or the online outrage from certain quarters for studios having the audacity to have female or non-white characters be the star of their movies.

At one point a white actor would have no problems going blackface, just like at one point a white voice actor would have no problem voicing a character of a different race. People and their morals change.

Companies, studios, and actors make their choice based on what they see is best for their brand. That has always been the way the world works, unfortunately the world is no longer moving in the direction you want it to be going.

Do you have some examples of these consistent boycotts?

Foxtrol

oyvey wrote: »

Why do you keep trying to justify bad things by pointing out other bad things that have been done. Obviously people shouldn’t be putting pressure on studios to hire only white actors. That doesn’t make it right that people are being pressured out of jobs. I feel like we should be in agreement here.

That is just your opinion on what is bad. I don't see anything wrong for a person to put pressure on a company or another individual to stop doing something they see as wrong. Making your opinion known is the foundation of freedom of expression and protest.

Even if both were 'wrong', what I'm pointing out is how the world works and has worked for a long time and no amount of complaining from you will change it. For example, we in Ireland love a good protest to put pressure on people and even go as far as boycotting, from South Africa during apartheid to our elected officials voting for a boycott of goods from Israel now.

Foxtrol

VicMackey1 wrote: »

Do you have some examples of these consistent boycotts?

Did you try google. It is full of articles. Here are the top few:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/all-the-things-you-can-no-longer-buy-if-youre-a-true-maga-trump-fan

https://www.businessinsider.com/conservatives-boycott-brands-keurig-nfl-starbucks-2017-11

https://theoutline.com/post/6140/a-brief-history-of-bat****-conservative-protests?zd=1&zi=4iwdl4uj

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-ent-add-taylor-swift-conservative-boycott-list-20181008-story.html

Foxtrol

Smith152 wrote: »

And what films have people boycotted for their being non white or female lead actors?

If you read my post I said outrage about lead actors. There have been attempts at boycotts also:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/star-wars-mens-rights-activists-claim-boycott-cost-the-force-awakens-42m-a6796146.html

oyvey

Foxtrol wrote: »

That is just your opinion on what is bad. I don't see anything wrong for a person to put pressure on a company or another individual to stop doing something they see as wrong. Making your opinion known is the foundation of freedom of expression and protest.

Even if both were 'wrong', what I'm pointing out is how the world works and has worked for a long time and no amount of complaining from you will change it. For example, we in Ireland love a good protest to put pressure on people and even go as far as boycotting, from South Africa during apartheid to our elected officials voting for a boycott of goods from Israel now.

By that logic you wouldn't have a problem with people putting pressure on a company/studio not to hire a non-white person, since they would see hiring them as wrong.

Golf is my Game

Norf FC wrote: »

Great post but All Lives Matter.

Well thats a point of view, but the whole point of BLM is to make the case that black lives can matter as well and that the those who think they dont as much should think about their opinions. Im not necessarily coming down for or against, but dont think theres any argument that discussion can only be positive in understanding both sides.

Foxtrol

oyvey wrote: »

By that logic you wouldn't have a problem with people putting pressure on a company/studio not to hire a non-white person, since they would see hiring them as wrong.

You've somehow merged the act of objection and the opinion being expressed as being the same thing, when they clearly aren't.

In your example the act of objection and pressure itself isn't wrong, however the opinion the person is expressing is wrong.

You've twisted yourself in a knot to the point where it is unclear what you're even trying to say. Is your point that no one should every put any pressure on any company or actor ever or is it just that they shouldn't be allowed do it when they don't agree with you?

Mr. Karate

Golf is my Game wrote: »

Well thats a point of view, but the whole point of BLM is to make the case that black lives can matter as well and that the those who think they dont as much should think about their opinions. Im not necessarily coming down for or against, but dont think theres any argument that discussion can only be positive in understanding both sides.

They don't matter to each other so why should they matter to us?

oyvey

Foxtrol wrote: »

You've somehow merged the act of objection and the opinion being expressed as being the same thing, when they clearly aren't.

In your example the act of objection and pressure itself isn't wrong, however the opinion the person is expressing is wrong.

You've twisted yourself in a knot to the point where it is unclear what you're even trying to say. Is your point that no one should every put any pressure on any company or actor ever or is it just that they shouldn't be allowed do it when they don't agree with you?

Clearly you're trolling now. No point going any further with this.

Foxtrol

oyvey wrote: »

Clearly you're trolling now. No point going any further with this.

So I'm trolling because you can't explain what your point of view is :rolleyes:

Your posts are clearly advocating that people shouldn't be pressuring these companies/actors, so it leaves two options:

1) You're against people pressuring companies/actors in all cases

2) You're against people pressuring companies/actors in certain situations

Option 2 leaves a huge hole for being called a hypocrite, which is pretty likely why you're running away from the discussion as fast as you can

oyvey

Foxtrol wrote: »

So I'm trolling because you can't explain what your point of view is :rolleyes:

Your posts are clearly advocating that people shouldn't be pressuring these companies/actors, so it leaves two options:

1) You're against people pressuring companies/actors in all cases

2) You're against people pressuring companies/actors in certain situations

Option 2 leaves a huge hole for being called a hypocrite, which is pretty likely why you're running away from the discussion as fast as you can

You know, I take it back. I actually don't think you're trolling. You put too much effort into your posts to be trolling. Unfortunately I think much of what's been said here is just failing to resonate with you for whatever reason. I think we probably agree more than you seem to realize.

1800_Ladladlad

https://twitter.com/KatTheHammer1/status/1277691864313929728

1800_Ladladlad

Police Officer Waldis Johnson, a 16-year veteran of the Detroit Police Department, was shot in the line of duty while answering a domestic call on April 30, 2017. He sadly succumbed to his injuries on May 31, 2020.


https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/officer-dies-after-being-shot-in-the-head-and-desperately-fighting-for-his-life-2/

WrenBoy

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

https://twitter.com/KatTheHammer1/status/1277691864313929728

The mob is in charge and to resist them is racism.

JimmyVik

Is it just me or is anyone else getting sick of being labelled "White" and with that label comes all sorts of negatives. Like "Privileged", "Racist".

And then its gets worse "White Middle aged male".
I find this very offensive tbh.

Yes, I am a white - almost middle aged - male.
wtf did I do to deserve to be labelled and abused.
And its the people who dont like to be labelled themselves who are the worst at it.