Allow me to explain why the 'All Live Matter' hashtag is awful.

Foxtrol

BattleCorp wrote: »

The protesters had broken down a gate and unlawfully entered a gated community and were continuing their protest on private property. The house was in the gated community and the homeowners were just protecting their property.

Agreed, there's no proof that the protesters would have attacked the house, but they had unlawfully broken down a gate and entered the private estate so you can't blame the home owners for being 'a little bit cautious'.

So it's not quite the same as walking down the street past their house.

I'm glad we agree, what you stated originally as a fact at best has no proof, but more likely is flat out not true.

There's a difference between 'a little bit cautious' and pointing guns at a crowd of people and each other.

Foxtrol

katiek102010 wrote: »

I forgot to address the term white privilage in my post above.

I know numerous people of colour, anyone I know who is a person of colour and who has a good work ethic believes that the term white privilage is actually racist.

To them it reinforces that white people are superior in every way to them, based on skin colour. A friend who is a teacher put it this way, a white mass murderer is superior to her because he is white.

She believes that using this term reinforces the chip on the shoulders of the little scum going around in gangs, and the belief that white people owe them something.

She is also mortified and embarrassed over the whole BLam movement and the raising of a scumbag to sainthood when their rare many more deserving victims of police brutality, not racism, that deserved the outrage.

It is clear that neither you nor your 'friend' understand what the term means.

She also seems to not been following the protests at all, around the US they have been honouring and protesting for dozens of victims of police brutality.

On your later post, I've no idea what your point around genocide in WW2 has to do with what black people face in America today. If you want to talk about white privilege at that time, a Jewish person that escaped Europe to America would get to sit at the front of the bus while a returning black soldier, that traveled across the world risking their life to save the Jewish people from death, would have been forced to the back.

Cupatae

Foxtrol wrote: »

It is clear that neither you nor your 'friend' understand what the term means.

She also seems to not been following the protests at all, around the US they have been honouring and protesting for dozens of victims of police brutality.

On your later post, I've no idea what your point around genocide in WW2 has to do with what black people face in America today. If you want to talk about white privilege at that time, a Jewish person that escaped Europe to America would get to sit at the front of the bus while a returning black soldier, that traveled across the world risking their life to save the Jewish people from death, would have been forced to the back.

Here watch this perhaps if a level headed black person explains to u how ridiculous your stance is maybe you ll listen..and how white knights like yourself shouldn't be going around , acting as the defenders and spokes person of everything black.

https://youtu.be/88-dV9K_cHE

You prob won't watch that as it completely shreds your argument. And BLM along with it.

katiek102010

Foxtrol wrote: »

It is clear that neither you nor your 'friend' understand what the term means.

She also seems to not been following the protests at all, around the US they have been honouring and protesting for dozens of victims of police brutality.

On your later post, I've no idea what your point around genocide in WW2 has to do with what black people face in America today. If you want to talk about white privilege at that time, a Jewish person that escaped Europe to America would get to sit at the front of the bus while a returning black soldier, that traveled across the world risking their life to save the Jewish people from death, would have been forced to the back.

Can I ask you are you black or white.

My friend is black of African origin as she finds the term offensive and racist

She is disgusted at what's happening in America, the riots and the violence of people protesting.

If a black person finds it offensive and racist who am I as a white person to say its not.

She is not the only person I am friends with who feels the same, she is the one person I have had extensive discussions with on the matter.

katiek102010

Cupatae wrote: »

Here watch this perhaps if a level headed black person explains to u how ridiculous your stance is maybe you ll listen..and how white knights like yourself shouldn't be going around , acting as the defenders and spokes person of everything black.

https://youtu.be/88-dV9K_cHE

You prob won't watch that as it completely shreds your argument. And BLM along with it.

Funnily enough my friend has the exact same viewpoint as shown on this video.

Cupatae

katiek102010 wrote: »

Funnily enough my friend has the exact same viewpoint as shown on this video.

I'd imagine quite alot of people do it's a very fair ,truthful and level headed view.. not the usual scape goat victim mentality held by alot.

2u2me

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

I believe a lack of respect for education is the problem.

The same case made by John U Ugbu "Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb"

"Our anthropological study of public school education of minorities began in 1968 in Stockton, California, with a focus on societal and school factors that contribute to many of these students' lower academic achievement. We subsequently examined these factors comparatively and found similar results in six societies: Britain, India, Israel, Japan, New Zealand, and the United States. However, when we began to compare the academic achievements of different minorities in the same societies and in the same schools, the differences among them could not be explained by societal and school factors alone.

In the United States, the differences in the academic achievement among Black American, Chinese American, Japanese American and Vietnamese American students as well as students from the Caribbean and Central and South American, cannot be attributed to discrimination in society and school alone; to mere differences in culture, language, and pedagogic style; or to differences in social class background."

Sinzo wrote: »

Where it causes extra harm in the case of blacks is that the power and wealth generally rests with the majority group so the opportunities open to black people are more limited as a result... cultural differences have a major role to play.. the "acting white" or "uncle Tom" moniker is a good example of these cultural preferences..

I don't think this has anything to do with the power and wealth of majority group. These cultural preferences were borne of the resistance to slavery/Jim Crowe laws that persist to this day. They are 'enforced by' the black community themselves.

In the modern climate surely they do more harm than good, where are no longer needed as there are no more segregated laws.*at least not against black people*

Foxtrol wrote: »

Given that the black population in the US makes up 13% of the overall, on average they suffer a lot more discrimination.

There has been a trend in recent times to say "Look at this disparate outcome!" and then claim discrimination. It seems unhelpful as it ignores other reasons that may lead to disparate outcomes.
Like the push for women into STEM in recent times, the industry has been fighting against the claim it is 'sexist' for quite a while now.

Sinzo wrote: »

As I said earlier, where there are equally qualified candidates the tendency in any group is to pick their own kind. Where there is a clear superior ability in a black proponent there is evidence that the better or more talented person will be picked. A cursory look at the US sporting and entertainment arena will provide clear evidence that the US is not as deeply racist as some would paint it. The fact that blacks are hugely over represented is proof of this. The Pareto Principle may even be evident in sports and music.

One would have thought that capitalism would be the the ultimate leveller here. The case made against STEM is that it is "Men choosing men" completely ignores the tendencies of women to choose to work with people and men to work with things.

Charles Barkley did a campaign for Nike a few years ago where he received mostly positive feedback but an awful lot of foul, disgusting hate as well from the more progressive parts of society.

He says he always asks the same question when he enters schools to give talks, "What do you want to be when you grow up".

• 90% of kids at black schools want to be entertainers and sports stars.
• 10% of kids at white schools want that, the rest want to be doctors, lawyers, accountants.

Charles Barkley: "Our black youth are brainwashed"

Foxtrol

katiek102010 wrote: »

Can I ask you are you black or white.

My friend is black of African origin as she finds the term offensive and racist

She is disgusted at what's happening in America, the riots and the violence of people protesting.

If a black person finds it offensive and racist who am I as a white person to say its not.

She is not the only person I am friends with who feels the same, she is the one person I have had extensive discussions with on the matter.

I am white.

Can I ask if your friend grew up or has spent significant time in the US, if so what areas and how wealthy she/her family were?

I'll frame the rest of this post around the fact that a recent poll shows 86% support for the BLM movement among Black Americans.

Your friend is entitled to her opinion but it is only a single opinion, her opinion from the UK isn't more important, nor override, the opinions of hundreds of thousands of black Americans who are protesting and demanding action, some of who I've had the pleasure of protesting alongside, or the millions that support the movement more passively.

Can I ask what point you were hoping to prove by posting 'my black friend thinks x' here? It is quite similar to other posters that post the opinion of random black people on twitter that agree with them.

Foxtrol

2u2me wrote: »

There has been a trend in recent times to say "Look at this disparate outcome!" and then claim discrimination.

It seems unhelpful as it ignores other reasons that may lead to disparate outcomes.

Like the push for women into STEM in recent times, the industry has been fighting against the claim it is 'sexist' for quite a while now.

Care to provide some? I'd be very interested if you can provide some that can't be connected back to clear discrimination - slavery, segregation etc

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

Can I ask what point you were hoping to prove by posting 'my black friend thinks x' here? It is quite similar to other posters that post the opinion of random black people on twitter that agree with them.

Probably a similar level of credibility as you, since you're on an Irish BBS claiming to live in the US and have protested alongside Black people.

Sinzo

katiek102010 wrote:

It's less than 100 years ago since the worst genocide in history occurred, the vast majority of the victims were white.

Good points Katiek.. important to promote equality and to stop the issue of race politics becoming ever more militarised

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

Here watch this perhaps if a level headed black person explains to u how ridiculous your stance is maybe you ll listen..and how white knights like yourself shouldn't be going around , acting as the defenders and spokes person of everything black.

https://youtu.be/88-dV9K_cHE

You prob won't watch that as it completely shreds your argument. And BLM along with it.

Same level headed black person campaigning against gun control. Would you agree with him on that issue also?

Based on his previous videos I certainly would not rate his judgement on many issues nor agree with his opinions.

https://youtu.be/DGt5335Jk5I

Why should I agree with him now?

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

Same level headed black person campaigning against gun control. Would you agree with him on that issue also?

Based on his previous videos I certainly would not rate his judgement on many issues nor agree with his opinions.

https://youtu.be/DGt5335Jk5I

Why should I agree with him now?

In the specific vid I linked was he incorrect? Why are you deflecting to gun control thata not what we are discussing.

Attacking the the person rather than the topic when they don't align with your views... Why am I not surprised.

Sinzo

joe40 wrote:

How does that make me a racist? In American society it is an advantage to be white... Yes I believe that is the case. That does not mean that every single white person has an advantage over every single black person, it means where other factors such as wealth, etc are taken into account.

Totally agree with you Joe. In general it is an advantage to be white in a country where a large majority of the population is also white. Its hardly not an advantage. It would be simply untrue to say that blacks in the US are on an equal footing as whites.
The bigger issues, I believe, are cultural differences and the ever increasing concentration of wealth in a small minority of mainly white families. This plutocracy is growing its wealth and making life for the commoner garden Joe Bloggs harder and harder to get by in...

katiek102010

Foxtrol wrote: »

I am white.

Can I ask if your friend grew up or has spent significant time in the US, if so what areas and how wealthy she/her family were?

I'll frame the rest of this post around the fact that a recent poll shows 86% support for the BLM movement among Black Americans.

Your friend is entitled to her opinion but it is only a single opinion, her opinion from the UK isn't more important, nor override, the opinions of hundreds of thousands of black Americans who are protesting and demanding action, some of who I've had the pleasure of protesting alongside, or the millions that support the movement more passively.

Can I ask what point you were hoping to prove by posting 'my black friend thinks x' here? It is quite similar to other posters that post the opinion of random black people on twitter that agree with them.

My friend was one of 3 kids who grew up in council flats in South London/Surrey, she has a sister who is a nurse and a brother who is an accountant. Her mum was a single parent due to the death of her husband when kids were young.

She has spent time in the US both on holidays and a period of about 12 months in New York.

Difference between my friend, her family and others in her social circle is that they were brought up with a full understanding of if you want something you earn it and you don't get a free ride in life.

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

In the specific vid I linked was he incorrect? Why are you deflecting to gun control thata not what we are discussing.

Attacking the the person rather than the topic when they don't align with your views... Why am I not surprised.

No I don't agree with his opinion on this issue and I think he is wrong. He is of course entitled to his opinion but I disagree.
You described him as a "level headed black person". To me he obviously isn't level headed. You may think otherwise.

Cupatae

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Probably a similar level of credibility as you, since you're on an Irish BBS claiming to live in the US and have protested alongside Black people.

Alot of black people hate white people like that, that go virtue signalling on there behalf..cant say I blame em, it's embarrassing and makes em out to be needy victims that isn't the case.

Didn't foxtrol say "she never realized how bad racism was till she moved to the us and seen her black friends get pulled over"

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

No I don't agree with his opinion on this issue and I think he is wrong. He is of course entitled to his opinion but I disagree.
You described him as a "level headed black person". To me he obviously isn't level headed. You may think otherwise.

So what did you disagree with ? The whole opinion or ?

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

So what did you disagree with ? The whole opinion or ?

Yeah i disagreed. He obviously has a right wing MAGA audience and plays to that.
He misrepresented what white privilege means. I couldn't be arsed explaining it again.

It does not mean white people are superior.
It does not mean white people in the states all have it easier than black people.
It does not mean that black people are all victims and need help.

It will accept that there are people everywhere who like to blame others for all their problems and take no personal responsibility. Again the idea of white privilege does not excuse that.

I really don't have a problem with people saying white privilege does not exist. I have heard good arguments to that effect.
It is the wilful misrepresentation of what it means that annoys me.

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

Probably a similar level of credibility as you, since you're on an Irish BBS claiming to live in the US and have protested alongside Black people.

It might be a shock to you but Irish people have a history of emigrating to the US :eek:

Sinzo

2u2me wrote:

I don't think this has anything to do with the power and wealth of majority group. These cultural preferences were borne of the resistance to slavery/Jim Crowe laws that persist to this day. They are 'enforced by' the black community themselves.

I would respectfully say that where wealth and power rests, the advantage that accrues, is a major determining factor for opportunity and progression.
As far as I'm aware the statistics show that black wealth and income is significantly lower than that of any other racial group.
Poverty and lack of opportunity tend to lead to criminality and poor life choices.
Obviously cultural differences also play a major role and the black communities must also take responsibility for their own life choices; a breakdown in family units, a loss of stability for children growing up, poor input from adult males, a significant proportion of whom are incarcerated.
There are historical and cultural reasons for these shortcomings too, so it's too easy to simply say that they should just pull themselves up by the bootstraps but they must try to address the problems that, for example, result from a 70 per cent single parent rate, a significant gang banger & gangster culture, problems with discipline and poor performance in education.

Foxtrol

katiek102010 wrote: »

My friend was one of 3 kids who grew up in council flats in South London/Surrey, she has a sister who is a nurse and a brother who is an accountant. Her mum was a single parent due to the death of her husband when kids were young.

She has spent time in the US both on holidays and a period of about 12 months in New York.

So that confirms she hasn't experienced the same things as those black people protesting, who grew up in the US system.

Difference between my friend, her family and others in her social circle is that they were brought up with a full understanding of if you want something you earn it and you don't get a free ride in life.

Again, I ask what point you were hoping to prove by posting 'my black friend thinks x'? Is her perspective a black person from the UK more valid then the hundreds of thousands of black people protesting in the US about what is happening in their country?

Sinzo

2u2me wrote:

He says he always asks the same question when he enters schools to give talks, "What do you want to be when you grow up". 90% of kids at black schools want to be entertainers and sports stars. 10% of kids at white schools want that, the rest want to be doctors, lawyers, accountants. Charles Barkley: "

An interesting question here.. what percentage of doctors, nurses, teachers, police officers, lawyers and accountants are actually black? Would it be any where near 13 percent??

katiek102010

Foxtrol wrote: »

So that confirms she hasn't experienced the same things as those black people protesting, who grew up in the US system.



Again, I ask what point you were hoping to prove by posting 'my black friend thinks x'? Is her perspective a black person from the UK more valid then the hundreds of thousands of black people protesting in the US about what is happening in their country?

Don't k ow if you are aware but BLM is spreading the same BS in UK that it is in the states. According to BLM she should have experienced the same treatment as a Black person in London.

You say thousands are protesting in the US, can I ask you what part of protesting is law breaking, looting, violence, shootings and stabbings?

Are you aware that the "protests" here are spreading bile and hate. They are causing racism not aiding its removal.

If BLM were not a vile crowd of thugs why would they hoist up the likes of George Floyd as some kind of martyr as a victim of police harassment when in reality he was vile scum.

Maybe there are more black people in jail, maybe there wouldn't be if they were not criminals.

Am I missing something do the police in America deliberately set up and frame black people for crimes they did not commit

katiek102010

Sinzo wrote: »

An interesting question here.. what percentage of doctors, nurses, teachers, police officers, lawyers and accountants are actually black? Would it be any where near 13 percent??

The percentage of doctors, nurses in Ireland is quite high. I have had the misfortune of being in hospital quite a lot over the last 12 months. Both my son and I have a number of health issues. My son has 3 different doctors 2 are black and 1 Asian. I have I attend on a regular basis, 1 is white. Both my husband and I have also attended A&E in the last 18 months. Both doctors were not white.

My sons main specialist in the UK was a lovely Kenyan lady. She told me one she was educated by Irish Missionaries to the irish school curriculum and actually sat the inter cert and leaving.

I have worked a lot with the UK police when I lived there. I can honestly say, in the department I worked with, across 2 counties, less than 10% were white British. The majority of lawyers I met were Asian. I can't comment on accountants however I do know a lot of the Asian community believe that a career in finance would be something to aim for.

As far as I am aware the irish Gardaí are predominantly white although I do believe that there have been members of the BAME community in recent intakes

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

Yeah i disagreed. He obviously has a right wing MAGA audience and plays to that.
He misrepresented what white privilege means. I couldn't be arsed explaining it again.

It does not mean white people are superior.
It does not mean white people in the states all have it easier than black people.
It does not mean that black people are all victims and need help.

It will accept that there are people everywhere who like to blame others for all their problems and take no personal responsibility. Again the idea of white privilege does not excuse that.

I really don't have a problem with people saying white privilege does not exist. I have heard good arguments to that effect.
It is the wilful misrepresentation of what it means that annoys me.

Your assessment of what it means is ridiculous and the context in which it's being used in is also conviently overlooked by you , we all know in this climate it's being used with racial intent, what else is its purpose ? What s the purpose of saying white privilege?

What he said there in that video is the truth, I'd sooner listen to a person who takes responsibility for themselves and has climbed the ladder thru hard work than listen to some nonsense about the system keeping the black man down and all the white knights like urself pandering too it... Not only that there was a few uncomfortable truths about the great hero GF in all that aswell .

But the main point was how ridiculous it was to have white people out protesting telling black people what racism they "All" face. Just to get there virtue fix.

We have a fine example of it here in the current discussion wonder can you guess who.

Sinzo

katiek102010 wrote: »

The percentage of doctors, nurses in Ireland is quite high. I have had the misfortune of being in hospital quite a lot over the last 12 months. Both my son and I have a number of health issues. My son has 3 different doctors 2 are black and 1 Asian. I have I attend on a regular basis, 1 is white. Both my husband and I have also attended A&E in the last 18 months. Both doctors were not white.

My sons main specialist in the UK was a lovely Kenyan lady. She told me one she was educated by Irish Missionaries to the irish school curriculum and actually sat the inter cert and leaving.

I have worked a lot with the UK police when I lived there. I can honestly say, in the department I worked with, across 2 counties, less than 10% were white British. The majority of lawyers I met were Asian. I can't comment on accountants however I do know a lot of the Asian community believe that a career in finance would be something to aim for.

As far as I am aware the irish Gardaí are predominantly white although I do believe that there have been members of the BAME community in recent intakes

That's interesting. It would be informative to get statistics on the USA as a case study and in light of the prominence of the unrest over there in particular..

Foxtrol

katiek102010 wrote: »

Don't k ow if you are aware but BLM is spreading the same BS in UK that it is in the states. According to BLM she should have experienced the same treatment as a Black person in London.

I can't speak for the UK.

You say thousands are protesting in the US, can I ask you what part of protesting is law breaking, looting, violence, shootings and stabbings?

Incredibly tiny amount. If you want to see how certain parts of the media twist it, the protests have been going on for more than a month now yet this week Fox News were still running videos from May 28th.

What you and your 'friend' are doing is seeing a few English soccer hooligans fighting at the World Cup on the news and then jumping to the conclusion that every fan that goes to the World Cup is a hooligan and fights like that every day.

Are you aware that the "protests" here are spreading bile and hate. They are causing racism not aiding its removal.

Facts don't line up with your feelings on this.

The first 2 weeks of the protests since Floyd's death support increased by 28 points.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/10/upshot/black-lives-matter-attitudes.html

If BLM were not a vile crowd of thugs why would they hoist up the likes of George Floyd as some kind of martyr as a victim of police harassment when in reality he was vile scum.

Because we live in a society that even 'vile scum', to use your term, deserve to have a trial and not be slowly choked to death while he begged for his life, for the crime of potentially using a fake $20 bill.

Your mask is slipping BTW.

Maybe there are more black people in jail, maybe there wouldn't be if they were not criminals.

Am I missing something do the police in America deliberately set up and frame black people for crimes they did not commit

This has been done to death already but it has been proven that laws, policing practices, sentencing, wrongful imprisonment all discriminate against black people, even before you get into poverty that can be directly connected to slavery, segregation etc.

I'll end with for the 3rd time asking, what point you were hoping to prove by posting 'my black friend thinks x'? Is her perspective a black person from the UK more valid then the hundreds of thousands of black people protesting in the US about what is happening in their country?

Foxtrol

Cupatae wrote: »

Didn't foxtrol say "she never realized how bad racism was till she moved to the us and seen her black friends get pulled over"

I think this is proof that you really don't read posts and just make stuff up in your head.

Cupatae

Foxtrol wrote: »

I think this is proof that you really don't read posts and just make stuff up in your head.

That's what's you said that you never knew how bad it was till I moved to the us and seen what ur friends went thru on a daily basis you know we'll you did aswell