Allow me to explain why the 'All Live Matter' hashtag is awful.

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

Your assessment of what it means is ridiculous and the context in which it's being used in is also conviently overlooked by you , we all know in this climate it's being used with racial intent, what else is its purpose ? What s the purpose of saying white privilege?

What he said there in that video is the truth, I'd sooner listen to a person who takes responsibility for themselves and has climbed the ladder thru hard work than listen to some nonsense about the system keeping the black man down and all the white knights like urself pandering too it... Not only that there was a few uncomfortable truths about the great hero GF in all that aswell .

But the main point was how ridiculous it was to have white people out protesting telling black people what racism they "All" face. Just to get there virtue fix.

We have a fine example of it here in the current discussion wonder can you guess who.

How is George Floyd a hero? I don't think he is a hero. That just sums up your twisted thinking on this issue.

The only thing he did that is actually relevant to the current debate about police brutality, was get killed.

His past is irrelevant. Everyone had a right to life.

Plus the fact this is an anonymous message board, how the hell can I be "virtue signalling" no one knows who I am. I'm just giving my genuine opinion.

2u2me

Sinzo wrote: »

That's interesting. It would be informative to get statistics on the USA as a case study and in light of the prominence of the unrest over there in particular..

I'd imagine it's lower. In what way is it interesting though if it is considerably lower? Or perhaps higher.

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

It might be a shock to you but Irish people have a history of emigrating to the US :eek:

Doesn't change the fact that we don't know who you really are. So, you have the same credibility as the other poster. Simple enough. I honestly don't care whether you really are in the US or not. I'll base my own opinions about your knowledge or attitude based on the content of your posts (including claims made without supporting evidence). Same as I do with hers (the other poster).

Cupatae wrote: »

Alot of black people hate white people like that, that go virtue signalling on there behalf..cant say I blame em, it's embarrassing and makes em out to be needy victims that isn't the case.

A lot of white people do it too. I've met them before on University campuses in the US.

Didn't foxtrol say "she never realized how bad racism was till she moved to the us and seen her black friends get pulled over"

Fair enough, although she can question another posters personal knowledge (through her friend), but it's unreasonable to raise the same issue for hers (also through her friends)? Nah. It was a simple point about trusting someone to be honest until evidence or posting behavior shows otherwise.

Sinzo

Foxtrol wrote: »

I can't speak for the UK.



Incredibly tiny amount. If you want to see how certain parts of the media twist it, the protests have been going on for more than a month now yet this week Fox News were still running videos from May 28th.

What you and your 'friend' are doing is seeing a few English soccer hooligans fighting at the World Cup on the news and then jumping to the conclusion that every fan that goes to the World Cup is a hooligan and fights like that every day.



Facts don't line up with your feelings on this.

The first 2 weeks of the protests since Floyd's death support increased by 28 points.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/10/upshot/black-lives-matter-attitudes.html



Because we live in a society that even 'vile scum', to use your term, deserve to have a trial and not be slowly choked to death while he begged for his life, for the crime of potentially using a fake $20 bill.

Your mask is slipping BTW.



This has been done to death already but it has been proven that laws, policing practices, sentencing, wrongful imprisonment all discriminate against black people, even before you get into poverty that can be directly connected to slavery, segregation etc.

I'll end with for the 3rd time asking, what point you were hoping to prove by posting 'my black friend thinks x'? Is her perspective a black person from the UK more valid then the hundreds of thousands of black people protesting in the US about what is happening in their country?

I think she was simply trying to show that she can relate. Her own experience with a bame was that she had a counter point to you.
It's not wrong to give voice to your own lived experiences and interactions especially if it involves a connection with a member of that group.
I accept that Fox news is biased but CNN and NBC also give a biased account that is very much pro BLM.
The truth about this whole situation has many facets and nuances.
What is not useful is to accuse someone of racism simply for expressing an opinion.
By talking it over and analysing the "facts" we have a better chance of arriving at a solution and a concensus. By super charging the race element and resorting to a pejorative slur like "racist" we are only deepening the divide.
Please confine the term to those who clearly exhibit it rather than those who have a different opinion..

Sinzo

2u2me wrote: »

I'd imagine it's lower. In what way is it interesting though if it is considerably lower? Or perhaps higher.

Well it would inform a part of the debate.. if we don't know then we are missing part of the picture/solution..

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

How is George Floyd a hero? I don't think he is a hero. That just sums up your twisted thinking on this issue.

The only thing he did that is actually relevant to the current debate about police brutality, was get killed.

His past is irrelevant. Everyone had a right to life.

Plus the fact this is an anonymous message board, how the hell can I be "virtue signalling" no one knows who I am. I'm just giving my genuine opinion.

I assume your opinion holds thru in real life ?Unless you just pretend on here which tbh would atleast make sense.

You also conviently breezed over the white privilege issue but I can guess why.

I've twisted thinking rich coming from someone who cry's out for equality and fairness and in the next post makes racist statements.

His past was irrelevant , as was his colour till people similar to urself made it about race.

briany

joe40 wrote: »

Plus the fact this is an anonymous message board, how the hell can I be "virtue signalling" no one knows who I am. I'm just giving my genuine opinion.

"Virtue signalling", or rather the accusation thereof, has become something of a cheap tactic to cow people who point out any kind of injustice. Any time you point out you think something is wrong, you are technically signalling your virtue, so it's a redundant phrase as well. Imagine this board if some American Conservative political commentator called a criticism of historical mistreatment of Catholics in the North 'virtue signalling'. There'd be war over it. It's all fun and games to use over an issue that doesn't necessarily affect you. When it's a cherished bit of your own history, it's another matter entirely.

Cupatae

briany wrote: »

"Virtue signalling", or rather the accusation thereof, has become something of a cheap tactic to cow people who point out any kind of injustice. Any time you point out you think something is wrong, you are technically signalling your virtue, so it's a redundant phrase as well. Imagine this board if some American Conservative political commentator called a criticism of historical mistreatment of Catholics in the North 'virtue signalling'. There'd be war over it. It's all fun and games to use over an issue that doesn't necessarily affect you. When it's a cherished bit of your own history, it's another matter entirely.

When ur a white person who just moved to the us and is on here speaking broadly for the black community, ignoring all facts and hypocrisy that get pointed out, what would you call it?

Sometimes a spade is exactly that...a spade.

Unless of course your denying the existence of such behaviour entirely in which case that's just a naive opinion.

katiek102010

Foxtrol wrote: »

I can't speak for the UK.



Incredibly tiny amount. If you want to see how certain parts of the media twist it, the protests have been going on for more than a month now yet this week Fox News were still running videos from May 28th.

I have a degree in Media so I am well aware of how the spin is put on things, however, I know people who have experienced it first hand.

BLM protesters smashed up and robbed stores in London, one shop I frequented owned by an Asian family was robbed and smashed up I have family in LA who were petrified as they are mixed heritage. I have former colleagues in the met police that were injured and are now afraid to do their jobs, likewise I have a friends in the NYPD who are afraid. Not one of my colleagues have ever been racist but on many occasions have been accused of being racist. We had a saying at work, your best parter is a body cam and a sensor operated dash cam.

I'm not even going to go into the protests organised here in deliberate breach of the laws implemented to prevent the spread of COVID-19.


What you and your 'friend' are doing is seeing a few English soccer hooligans fighting at the World Cup on the news and then jumping to the conclusion that every fan that goes to the World Cup is a hooligan and fights like that every day.

Completely irrelevant analogy. Every single protester here in Ireland broke the law, even those who did not participate in Anti Social Behaviour and violence. We had legislation here in place preventing mass gatherings. The Gardaí did nothing as they were too afraid to act and be portrayed as racist, yet, 2-3 protesters complying with social distancing outside debenhams stores were swiftly dealt with by the Gardaí and dispersed.



Facts don't line up with your feelings on this.

Are you aware of what is happening in Ireland at protests and after protests?

The first 2 weeks of the protests since Floyd's death support increased by 28 points. Support in Ireland or the US as here it's causing it.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/10/upshot/black-lives-matter-attitudes.html



Because we live in a society that even 'vile scum', to use your term, deserve to have a trial and not be slowly choked to death while he begged for his life, for the crime of potentially using a fake $20 bill.
So why try and publicly declare the death of a scumbag as racism when it is a police brutality issue. Why not protest the death of innocent victims at the hands of police brutality and protest genuine victims of racism.

Your mask is slipping BTW. Clarify please are you trying to make out I'm racist? It's that because I call a scumbag a scumbag. Doesn't matter what colour a scumbag is, scum are present in every race, ethnicity and gender



This has been done to death already but it has been proven that laws, policing practices, sentencing, wrongful imprisonment all discriminate against black people, even before you get into poverty that can be directly connected to slavery, segregation etc.

The same can be said for every race and ethnicity that has been victimised throughout history. Are you saying to me that if in the same town in the US a black man and a white man each murder a woman on the same day in the same manner. They get arrested on the same day by the same cops and go before the same judge with the same evide, that they will get different jail time.

I struggle to comprehend how that is even possible. I have seen issues in London whereby people are given the exact same opportunity, the people who engage with education and society don't have issues those who don't fail. I have seen those who fail blame every one else but fail to take into account their lack of personal responsibility.

I'll end with for the 3rd time asking, what point you were hoping to prove by posting 'my black friend thinks x'? Is her perspective a black person from the UK more valid then the hundreds of thousands of black people protesting in the US about what is happening in their country?

As I have said my point is BLM are stating in the UK that black people there are having the same issues as the US. She is say that is BS, based on her own issues and those in her social circle.

VicMackey1

briany wrote: »

"Virtue signalling", or rather the accusation thereof, has become something of a cheap tactic to cow people who point out any kind of injustice. Any time you point out you think something is wrong, you are technically signalling your virtue, so it's a redundant phrase as well. Imagine this board if some American Conservative political commentator called a criticism of historical mistreatment of Catholics in the North 'virtue signalling'. There'd be war over it. It's all fun and games to use over an issue that doesn't necessarily affect you. When it's a cherished bit of your own history, it's another matter entirely.

Might be wrong but I thought virtue signaling was someone supposedly caring deeply about something even though they couldn't have been ars"d about the issue before it was trendy to do so?

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

I assume your opinion holds thru in real life ?Unless you just pretend on here which tbh would atleast make sense.

You also conviently breezed over the white privilege issue but I can guess why.

I've twisted thinking rich coming from someone who cry's out for equality and fairness and in the next post makes racist statements.

His past was irrelevant , as was his colour till people similar to urself made it about race.

What racist statements did I make? That is a big accusation to make.
I recall you youself getting upset at been branded a racist.

So please clearly explain where I have made racist statements.

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

What racist statements did I make? That is a big accusation to make.
I recall you youself getting upset at been branded a racist.

So please clearly explain where I have made racist statements.

Go back a couple of pages ur memory is hardly that short or do you not remember being ok with the term white privilege a racist divisive term?

It was already clearly pointed out and explained to u by a few posters how it was racist.

briany

briany wrote: »

"Virtue signalling", or rather the accusation thereof, has become something of a cheap tactic to cow people who point out any kind of injustice. Any time you point out you think something is wrong, you are technically signalling your virtue, so it's a redundant phrase as well. Imagine this board if some American Conservative political commentator called a criticism of historical mistreatment of Catholics in the North 'virtue signalling'. There'd be war over it. It's all fun and games to use over an issue that doesn't necessarily affect you. When it's a cherished bit of your own history, it's another matter entirely.

True enough, it has been overused in discussions, just as racist, bigot, etc have.

The problem though is there a certain "holier than thou" attitude to those who are posting about perceived injustices. It's often a crusade, that begins with honestly great intentions, but then turns into a witch-hunt, burning those who stand against the righteous. There's an awful amount of people who love to join a mob bent on "social justice". And worse yet, quite often it turns out that the person has no real interest in the cause, but is just seeking social proof of some sort.

It happens on boards, as well as any other social media platform. You have your username which is recognizable, and combined with the thanks system, you will have people seeking recognition for their high morals.

So.. no... don't dismiss it entirely. It exists, and unfortunately has become a rather popular attitude online.

Cupatae

[Deleted User] wrote: »

True enough, it has been overused in discussions, just as racist, bigot, etc have.

The problem though is there a certain "holier than thou" attitude to those who are posting about perceived injustices. It's often a crusade, that begins with honestly great intentions, but then turns into a witch-hunt, burning those who stand against the righteous. There's an awful amount of people who love to join a mob bent on "social justice". And worse yet, quite often it turns out that the person has no real interest in the cause, but is just seeking social proof of some sort.

It happens on boards, as well as any other social media platform. You have your username which is recognizable, and combined with the thanks system, you will have people seeking recognition for their high morals.

So.. no... don't dismiss it entirely. It exists, and unfortunately has become a rather popular attitude online.

Well said!

katiek102010

katiek102010 wrote: »

As I have said my point is BLM are stating in the UK that black people there are having the same issues as the US. She is say that is BS, based on her own issues and those in her social circle.

Seriously don't know what happened to my post, I was responding directly to the quoted portion and it has completely been included in the quote

joe40

[Deleted User] wrote: »

True enough, it has been overused in discussions, just as racist, bigot, etc have.

The problem though is there a certain "holier than thou" attitude to those who are posting about perceived injustices. It's often a crusade, that begins with honestly great intentions, but then turns into a witch-hunt, burning those who stand against the righteous. There's an awful amount of people who love to join a mob bent on "social justice". And worse yet, quite often it turns out that the person has no real interest in the cause, but is just seeking social proof of some sort.

It happens on boards, as well as any other social media platform. You have your username which is recognizable, and combined with the thanks system, you will have people seeking recognition for their high morals.

So.. no... don't dismiss it entirely. It exists, and unfortunately has become a rather popular attitude online.

I have now been accused of virtue signalling and been a racist. That has to be a record of some sort.
(That is a joke by the way, I'm not that sensitive)

In real life I know one or two people that would be sterotypical SJW types, always the same strong feelings on all social issues and they're a pain.
Despite what some may think I'm not like that, but I do believe been white in America is an advantage to been black.
If that makes me a racist in some people minds so be it.

I may be wrong, I accept that, but I'm not a racist. I won't judge any group of people either positively or negatively based on a physical characteristic.

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

I have now been accused of virtue signalling and been a racist. That has to be a record of some sort.
(That is a joke by the way, I'm not that sensitive)

In real life I know one or two people that would be sterotypical SJW types, always the same strong feelings on all social issues and they're a pain.
Despite what some may think I'm not like that, but I do believe been white in America is an advantage to been black.
If that makes me a racist in some people minds so be it.

I may be wrong, I accept that, but I'm not a racist. I won't judge any group of people either positively or negatively based on a physical characteristic.

So just to be clear... You think white people in America have an advantage based on the color of there skin?

You can back out now... And redeem urself, you don't have to double down on the OG , I didn't really think you were racist more you didn't know what you were talking about and made a racist statement by mistake but if your gonna double down... well...

Have a think about what ur saying...

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

So just to be clear... You think white people in America have an advantage based on the color of there skin?

You can back out now... And redeem urself, you don't have to double down on the OG , I didn't really think you were racist more you didn't know what you were talking about and made a racist statement by mistake but if your gonna double down... well...

Have a think about what ur saying...

That's what I think, yes. I'm Perfectly happy to listen to reasons why I may be wrong and I will listen with an open mind.
But that position/opinion is not racist.

Feel free to report the post for racism if it is such an OG.

Yellow_Fern

joe40 wrote: »

That's what I think, yes. I'm Perfectly happy to listen to reasons why I may be wrong and I will listen with an open mind.
But that position/opinion is not racist.

Youd have to qualify what you mean by advantage. An advantage maybe but like are you saying it accounts for a higher percent of differences in wealth?

katiek102010

Foxtrol wrote: »

I can't speak for the UK

What you and your 'friend' are doing is seeing a few English soccer hooligans fighting at the World Cup on the news and then jumping to the conclusion that every fan that goes to the World Cup is a hooligan and fights like that every day.

y?

I had previously stated this analogy was irrelevant.

In fact I would like to correct myself.

You have used this analogy in an attempt to point out flaws in our belief, but in fact it actually sums up the flaws in BLM propaganda beautifully.

As per BLM all black people are discriminated against, all cops are racist and white privilage is a thing.

Now apply your own analogy to those statements, you will clearly see how wrong you are

joe40

joe40 wrote: »

I have now been accused of virtue signalling and been a racist. That has to be a record of some sort.
(That is a joke by the way, I'm not that sensitive)

I wouldn't worry. I've been called a xenophobe, racist, and sexist in the same day before. I wouldn't consider you a racist, although I don't agree with your defense of the term "white privilege", since I do find the term extremely offensive, and racist.

In real life I know one or two people that would be sterotypical SJW types, always the same strong feelings on all social issues and they're a pain.
Despite what some may think I'm not like that, but I do believe been white in America is an advantage to been black.
If that makes me a racist in some people minds so be it.

I work at universities in China, and because of my faculty connections with American universities, I'm sometimes sent with the Chinese professors to help with orientation. It's a all expenses paid holiday, which is usually nice to get. The one major downside though is the feminist, SJW, and BLM presences on campuses. There's a general lack of politeness, lack of respect towards others, and quite a bit of hostility towards those who don't fall into line with their opinions.... and each group tends to help the others out.

Being white in the US has advantages. I wouldn't deny that. Being white in a predominately Black community would have disadvantages that a black person probably wouldn't experience. But I refuse to accept any idea of privilege based on race because it's a gross generalisation. You can say it's not about all white people, but in reality, it is thrown at all white people.. and it is being exported to countries outside of the US... countries that don't have the historical racism or discrimination towards black people, but we're being told that we all have white privilege.. that's a label based entirely on race...

I may be wrong, I accept that, but I'm not a racist. I won't judge any group of people either positively or negatively based on a physical characteristic.

Nah. You're just biased. I am too. Most people have their biases.

joe40

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Youd have to qualify what you mean by advantage. An advantage maybe but like are you saying it accounts for a higher percent of differences in wealth?

This is a good article that I found which explains the term "white privilege" as I understand it.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/world/what-white-privilege-origins-and-meaning-phrase-used-amid-black-lives-matter-debate-and-why-its-misunderstood-2884982%3famp

As I said before, I have no problem listening to arguments to suggest white privilege does not exist, but I do not accept the term is racist.

Yellow_Fern

joe40 wrote: »

This is a good article that I found which explains the term "white privilege" as I understand it.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/world/what-white-privilege-origins-and-meaning-phrase-used-amid-black-lives-matter-debate-and-why-its-misunderstood-2884982%3famp

As I said before, I have no problem listening to arguments to suggest white privilege does not exist, but I do not accept the term is racist.

That definition is US based and has nearly zero evidence from Europe. The scant data that is provided is garbage. If you look at differences in sentencing in the US BLM advocates taking about maybe a 15% higher sentence for black men for the same sentences in US. Sounds terrible, until you compare it with the equivalent differences between men and women. Men get a 60% higher sentences than women for the same crimes, but somehow the idea of female privilege doesn't gain much traction.

joe40

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I wouldn't worry. I've been called a xenophobe, racist, and sexist in the same day before. I wouldn't consider you a racist, although I don't agree with your defense of the term "white privilege", since I do find the term extremely offensive, and racist.



I work at universities in China, and because of my faculty connections with American universities, I'm sometimes sent with the Chinese professors to help with orientation. It's a all expenses paid holiday, which is usually nice to get. The one major downside though is the feminist, SJW, and BLM presences on campuses. There's a general lack of politeness, lack of respect towards others, and quite a bit of hostility towards those who don't fall into line with their opinions.... and each group tends to help the others out.

Being white in the US has advantages. I wouldn't deny that. Being white in a predominately Black community would have disadvantages that a black person probably wouldn't experience. But I refuse to accept any idea of privilege based on race because it's a gross generalisation. You can say it's not about all white people, but in reality, it is thrown at all white people.. and it is being exported to countries outside of the US... countries that don't have the historical racism or discrimination towards black people, but we're being told that we all have white privilege.. that's a label based entirely on race...



Nah. You're just biased. I am too. Most people have their biases.

Good post. I have said earlier I think white privilege is a predominantly American phenomenon based on their rather unique history with race and racism. I do reject efforts to introduce it to a country like Ireland as pretty ridiculous.

No other western democracy, had the same history of segregation laws, lynchings, blatant racist laws directed to black people right up to fairly recent times, 2 or 3 generations ago. That can't be erased that easily, I think it still lingers and contributes to disadvantages both, societal and cultural, experienced by black people/communities in the US.

This is not a criticism of all white people, it is just how American society has turned out. A modern day person is not responsible for crimes committed in the past.

I do accept it is a generalisation, but one with a basis in reality.

As for biases, absolutely. It is the human condition. Especially with all this information available via internet, we can all decide our idealogical position, and then find the evidence to suit.

The Daniel Kahenmann book "thinking fast and slow" had interesting ideas on that topic.

joe40

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

That definition is US based and has nearly zero evidence from Europe. The scant data that is provided is garbage. If you look at differences in sentencing in the US BLM advocates taking about maybe a 15% higher sentence for black men for the same sentences in US. Sounds terrible, until you compare it with the equivalent differences between men and women. Men get a 60% higher sentences than women for the same crimes, but somehow the idea of female privilege doesn't gain much traction.

I fully agree it is US based, I have said that a few times in this discussion. If you start importing it to other countries there are loads of examples of groups that are discriminated against not just black people.
In some countries it is probably a disadvantage to be white, I can't give concrete examples though.

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

This is a good article that I found which explains the term "white privilege" as I understand it.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/world/what-white-privilege-origins-and-meaning-phrase-used-amid-black-lives-matter-debate-and-why-its-misunderstood-2884982%3famp

As I said before, I have no problem listening to arguments to suggest white privilege does not exist, but I do not accept the term is racist.

Ok a few things, just because an article says something.. doesnt make it fact.

i dont think you full understand the root of the term white privilege, and the intent with which it is being thrown around now a days..

First of all to clarify for you "White Privilege" is a racist term, its a race based derogatory generalization, Its also very divisive for obvious reasons, so if your about equality and ending racism but ok with this being thrown around... the two dont mix.

So in saying white privilege by definition one has made a racist statement.

As i said before i dont think you're racist, more biased and dont rightly understand the phrase.

katiek102010

joe40 wrote: »

I fully agree it is US based, I have said that a few times in this discussion. If you start importing it to other countries there are loads of examples of groups that are discriminated against not just black people.
In some countries it is probably a disadvantage to be white, I can't give concrete examples though.

South Africa, currently. White peoples life's are at risk due to revenge for the past. I have been advised by a South African lady that it would be I'll advised to even go on holiday especially if you are a UK passport holder.

joe40

joe40 wrote: »

This is not a criticism of all white people, it is just how American society has turned out. A modern day person is not responsible for crimes committed in the past.

I do accept it is a generalisation, but one with a basis in reality.

For a long time within Irish society, nepotism was a relatively common aspect of life. A lot like the Chinese system of favors through relationships, people passed favors around, and received jobs due to factors other than skill or experience. There was a large degree of discrimination involved towards the average person.

Nepotism is largely gone from Irish society. Oh, people like to refer to it as if it's still around but mostly it's an angry rant about "some" people while really only talking about an extreme minority.

And that's pretty similar to the idea of white privilege. Some people, a variable minority do gain benefits for being white, but since the majority population is white, it rarely is worth much to them. Just as Black people would receive racial benefits due to being Black in a predominately Black neighborhood, or Hispanics in an area where they are the majority. White people are likely to lose out to the majority because that's how the US operates.

The problem with the idea of white privilege apart from the racist angle towards white people, is the giving of excuses to Black people, as if to say it's perfectly okay to give up. Go on, give up, it's not your fault, you can't win, because the deck is stacked against you right from the beginning. Which is exactly what White privilege and other concepts do... excuse failure.

As for biases, absolutely. It is the human condition. Especially with all this information available via internet, we can all decide our idealogical position, and then find the evidence to suit.

The Daniel Kahenmann book "thinking fast and slow" had interesting ideas on that topic.

Yes, I've read it a few times.

My problem with the bias shown towards BLM is that it's encouraging the assignment of blame... there's little actual movement to improve things internally within the Black community.

It's as if to say "well, we would be perfect if the police and white people weren't racist, and all the negatives in our society only exist because of white people"(if they could be bothered to acknowledge any negatives existing at all)

You see, I like to look at things from a reasonably neutral pov. I don't have any skin in this game. And I see deep rooted problems within Black culture which idolize the more dangerous aspects of society, which gives permission to gang violence, and failure in education. Oh, sure, just as with White people, many break the mold and don't follow the negative aspects of that culture, but it is still there nonetheless. So many people are talking about the negative impact of White racism, but few people want to talk about what's wrong within Black culture. And I see that as an extremely dodgy stance to take because it's all about creating an enemy....

Carfacemandog

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Probably a similar level of credibility as you, since you're on an Irish BBS claiming to live in the US and have protested alongside Black people.

In quite sure I have seen this poster refer to living in the us multiple times in the past. Is there something wild and incredible about the idea of Irish people moving abroad?

Sinzo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

For a long time within Irish society, nepotism was a relatively common aspect of life. A lot like the Chinese system of favors through relationships, people passed favors around, and received jobs due to factors other than skill or experience. There was a large degree of discrimination involved towards the average person.

Nepotism is largely gone from Irish society. Oh, people like to refer to it as if it's still around but mostly it's an angry rant about "some" people while really only talking about an extreme minority.

And that's pretty similar to the idea of white privilege. Some people, a variable minority do gain benefits for being white, but since the majority population is white, it rarely is worth much to them. Just as Black people would receive racial benefits due to being Black in a predominately Black neighborhood, or Hispanics in an area where they are the majority. White people are likely to lose out to the majority because that's how the US operates.

The problem with the idea of white privilege apart from the racist angle towards white people, is the giving of excuses to Black people, as if to say it's perfectly okay to give up. Go on, give up, it's not your fault, you can't win, because the deck is stacked against you right from the beginning. Which is exactly what White privilege and other concepts do... excuse failure.



Yes, I've read it a few times.

My problem with the bias shown towards BLM is that it's encouraging the assignment of blame... there's little actual movement to improve things internally within the Black community.

It's as if to say "well, we would be perfect if the police and white people weren't racist, and all the negatives in our society only exist because of white people"(if they could be bothered to acknowledge any negatives existing at all)

You see, I like to look at things from a reasonably neutral pov. I don't have any skin in this game. And I see deep rooted problems within Black culture which idolize the more dangerous aspects of society, which gives permission to gang violence, and failure in education. Oh, sure, just as with White people, many break the mold and don't follow the negative aspects of that culture, but it is still there nonetheless. So many people are talking about the negative impact of White racism, but few people want to talk about what's wrong within Black culture. And I see that as an extremely dodgy stance to take because it's all about creating an enemy....

Klaz. I think you have made some really interesting and valid points. I have posted earlier with some similar cross over points.
BLM is not a bad think if it gets people to focus on injustice towards the black minority. Unfortunately, it would appear that it has been hijacked by an anti capitalist and Maoist ideology. That poses a severe threat to modern America.
If we look at black people in America, they too are privileged by virtue of living in one of the richest countries on earth. Ask 5 billion other people in the world who live on less than 2 dollars a day.
That's not to say that blacks in America are not disadvantaged relative to whites. Relativities are important.
White privilege or white fragility, I believe, are phrases that have become divisive rather than names for useful concepts that might help us explore the issue of race and disenfranchisment.
That said, white people, as the majority, do have to look at their behaviour and how they deal with blacks. That does not abdicate the black community from their own responsibilities either.
The current cycle in the US is very worrying as it is becoming more fraught. I think that assumptions on race on all sides is leading to ever more heightened emotions.