Allow me to explain why the 'All Live Matter' hashtag is awful.

Cupatae

Foxtrol wrote: »

What do you mean it is owned? Are there marches against white collar crime in white communities? Are leaders of white communities speaking out against it on a consistent basis rather than other topics impacting white communities? Are white people expected to sort out white-collar crime before they speak about any other types of crime?

Read the post again till you understand it.

Cupatae

Foxtrol wrote: »

It is difficult for me because posters tie themselves in such knots trying to make the racist things post appear not quite as racist and the result are posts of vague nonsense.

You're probably well used to 'reading between the lines' and dealing with 'dog whistles', however it isn't so easy for us folks that aren't initiated.

Your boring me now with your "if you don't agree with me = racist" nonsense..

You're tedious to debate with because when you get cornered and/or proven wrong you go into willfully stupid mode and can't understand anything...

It's the boards.ie version of "me no speak Ingles"

Foxtrol

Cupatae wrote: »

Read the post again till you understand it.

You've said nearly exactly what I've said but somehow you're 'owning it' and the black community isn't?

Posters here never stop deflecting from issues facing black people to claim they need to sort out 'black on black crime' or single parent issues. What is the white community doing to sort out the 'culture' of corporate crime? Should they be silent on other issues impacting them until they have reduced it?

Foxtrol

BattleCorp wrote: »

White collar crime appears to be very prevalent in Africa and most often carried out by politicians over there. Hard to blame whitey in that case.

So you want to mix US violent crime data with data on white collar crime from African countries?

It is nearly like an individual's personal situation leads to what crime they are more likely to commit... :rolleyes:

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

Is strawman your favorite word or something ? You seem to use it for anyone that doesn't agree with you, and proves you wrong.

We all know ur incredibly biased and at times willfully stupid it just undermine s everything you say at this stage.

Ohh your back to calling people that don't agree with you racist again? you are going in circles at this point

Black people make up 12-13% of the pop but are responsible for well over half of the violent crime in the us.

To you that's strawman to the rest of us it's a FACT.

Let's see what excuses you can come for that statistic this time or what mental gymnastics you can do to blame white people for this stat in some round about way.

I would be interested in your thoughts on the reason for these statistics.
Are they purely the result of behaviors and attitudes within the African American community or are there also other wider societal factors at play.

Things can have a variety of causes. I'm just wondering if you would say that there still are racism issues negatively affecting blacks in US society.

Some are of the opinion that America solved all it's racism problems with the civil rights laws of the sixties. (Prior to this I think we all agree the US was an extremely racist society with segregation laws etc).Is that your view?

So my question is basically are all the issues of poverty, crime, poor education that affect the black communities their own fault, and solutions are available if they choose.

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

I would be interested in your thoughts on the reason for these statistics.
Are they purely the result of behaviors and attitudes within the African American community or are there also other wider societal factors at play.

Things can have a variety of causes. I'm just wondering if you would say that there still are racism issues negatively affecting blacks in US society.

Some are of the opinion that America solved all it's racism problems with the civil rights laws of the sixties. (Prior to this I think we all agree the US was an extremely racist society with segregation laws etc).Is that your view?

So my question is basically are all the issues of poverty, crime, poor education that affect the black communities their own fault, and solutions are available if they choose.

If you're poor and badly educated after having access to school and you go commit a crime, is it your fault joe or is it societies ?

All aspects from poverty and crime have an effect on each other but for some reason some people downplay personal choice and personal responsibility and there's where the problem lies with blaming whites or society or Jesus or whoever else you want to use as a crutch to blame all ur problems on.

At some point these people will have to own there problems...

Who do you blame for ur problems Joe yourself or society?

Foxtrol

Cupatae wrote: »

Your boring me now with your "if you don't agree with me = racist" nonsense..

You're tedious to debate with because when you get cornered and/or proven wrong you go into willfully stupid mode and can't understand anything...

It's the boards.ie version of "me no speak Ingles"

It is generally worth reconsidering your position in a discussion if you're afraid to state your case in clear terms and need to post in a way where everyone needs to 'read between the lines' to understand what is being said.

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

If you're poor and badly educated after having access to school and you go commit a crime, is it your fault joe or is it societies ?

All aspects from poverty and crime have an effect on each other but for some reason some people downplay personal choice and personal responsibility and there's where the problem lies with blaming whites or society or Jesus or whoever else you want to use as a crutch to blame all ur problems on.

At some point these people will have to own there problems...

Who do you blame for ur problems Joe yourself or society?

If an individual commits a crime, especially a serious crime it is their fault I'm not arguing against that. Makes no difference whether the person is poor or rich.

But things like crime and poverty correlate together.
Good functioning societies work to tackle that and try to find solutions. It is in everyone's benefit.
Ireland is not too bad we have good welfare system and an education system that that is fairly inclusive.
The US is not an equitable society. The extremes of poverty and wealth are obscene. The AA community seem to suffer the brunt of this inequality. (Not exclusively)

There are things they could do, and there are harmful cultural issues but I still believe issues of discrimination and racism still exist. No one thing will provide a solution.

Even things like poverty and poor health correlate together. The biggest indicator of a person's health outcomes are their socioeconomic group. It would be easy to just say "personal responsibility" and leave it at that, but that doesn't work.

But you still haven't answered my question, Does societal issues have any impact in the US in terms of AA communities or are the problems all their own making.

It's not about blame. I'm not to blame for high levels of drug abuse and crime in some of our cities but I still want to live in a society where attempts are made to tackle these issues.

TomTomTim

joe40 wrote: »

So my question is basically are all the issues of poverty, crime, poor education that affect the black communities their own fault, and solutions are available if they choose.

In the modern world, yes. Their problems can only be fixed internally too. If any white Americans make any suggestions, they'd be labelled as white supremacists, so there is no other avenue than self correction. People like you enable this behavior by constantly shifting blame to others. It's like telling a drunk it's all someone else's fault that they are a drunk. If they accept that they are the problem and not the other, there's a far higher chance of correction.

joe40

TomTomTim wrote: »

In the modern world, yes. Their problems can only be fixed internally too. If any white Americans make any suggestions, they'd be labelled as white supremacists, so there is no other avenue than self correction. People like you enable this behavior by constantly shifting blame to others. It's like telling a drunk it's all someone else's fault that they are a drunk. If they accept that they are the problem and not the other, there's a far higher chance of correction.

I do not constantly "shift the blame to others" that is simply untrue. I have several times said that there are cultural issues within the AA community that are harmful and can only be solved by strong internal leadership and role models.

But I also think there are wider societal issues of equality and discrimination at play.

Foxtrol

TomTomTim wrote: »

In the modern world, yes. Their problems can only be fixed internally too. If any white Americans make any suggestions, they'd be labelled as white supremacists, so there is no other avenue than self correction. People like you enable this behavior by constantly shifting blame to others. It's like telling a drunk it's all someone else's fault that they are a drunk. If they accept that they are the problem and not the other, there's a far higher chance of correction.

The modern world? How long ago do you think overtly racist laws were in place?

Gay Byrne was presenting the Late Late show before the Civil Rights Act was signed, that stopped overt discrimination. Some people that were allowed to be lawfully discriminated against haven't even hit pension age yet.

Cupatae

Foxtrol wrote: »

It is generally worth reconsidering your position in a discussion if you're afraid to state your case in clear terms and need to post in a way where everyone needs to 'read between the lines' to understand what is being said.

Considering me and you had about 20 pages of a discussion and you relentlessly need some absolutely mind boggling dumbed down version of my stance every 2nd post... Try to keep up it hasn't changed I'm still not a BLM fanatic like urself, and ur crew (I'm genuinely waiting for you to say what crew)

Not only did I discuss it with you i obliterated your points with facts I believe u resorted to calling multiple posters racist for a finish and some rant about Irish tenant farmers.Or have you forgotten that aswell?

You come across as an incredibly righteous point scoring individual.. your own view on this is ridiculously one sided this has been proven over and over but carry on your pity party and banging the drum about how downtrodden the poor ole black man in America is at absolutely no fault of there own.

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

If an individual commits a crime, especially a serious crime it is their fault I'm not arguing against that. Makes no difference whether the person is poor or rich.

But things like crime and poverty correlate together.
Good functioning societies work to tackle that and try to find solutions. It is in everyone's benefit.
Ireland is not too bad we have good welfare system and an education system that that is fairly inclusive.
The US is not an equitable society. The extremes of poverty and wealth are obscene. The AA community seem to suffer the brunt of this inequality. (Not exclusively)

There are things they could do, and there are harmful cultural issues but I still believe issues of discrimination and racism still exist. No one thing will provide a solution.

Even things like poverty and poor health correlate together. The biggest indicator of a person's health outcomes are their socioeconomic group. It would be easy to just say "personal responsibility" and leave it at that, but that doesn't work.

But you still haven't answered my question, Does societal issues have any impact in the US in terms of AA communities or are the problems all their own making.

It's not about blame. I'm not to blame for high levels of drug abuse and crime in some of our cities but I still want to live in a society where attempts are made to tackle these issues.

It's not about blame or excuses yet you ve 4-5 paragraphs of excuses and blame, you were blaming white privilege and the likes only pages ago atleast try to be consistent ,

My question doesn't take paragraphs to answer who do you blame for your problems society or yourself ?

It really is the Achilles' heel of your type of an argument personal accountability... The blaming education is laughable aswell, these people aren't brain dead they might not be able to do advanced algebra, but they aren't knuckle draggers and know right from wrong.

Personal choice and personal responsibility is the main cause of there problems, everything else is secondary and till these are addressed they ll see no improvement.

Foxtrol

Cupatae wrote: »

Considering me and you had about 20 pages of a discussion and you relentlessly need some absolutely mind boggling dumbed down version of my stance every 2nd post... Try to keep up it hasn't changed I'm still not a BLM fanatic like urself, and ur crew (I'm genuinely waiting for you to say what crew)

Not only did I discuss it with you i obliterated your points with facts I believe u resorted to calling multiple posters racist for a finish and some rant about Irish tenant farmers.Or have you forgotten that aswell?

You come across as an incredibly righteous point scoring individual.. your own view on this is ridiculously one sided this has been proven over and over but carry on your pity party and banging the drum about how downtrodden the poor ole black man in America is at absolutely no fault of there own.

'Obliterated'... if you mean you deflected, ran, and then topped it off with celebratory naval gazing :rolleyes:

I still await your response to these questions.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Posters here never stop deflecting from issues facing black people to claim they need to sort out 'black on black crime' or single parent issues. What is the white community doing to sort out the 'culture' of corporate crime? Should they be silent on other issues impacting them until they have reduced it?

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

It's not about blame or excuses yet you ve 4-5 paragraphs of excuses and blame, you were blaming white privilege and the likes only pages ago atleast try to be consistent ,

My question doesn't take paragraphs to answer who do you blame for your problems society or yourself ?

It really is the Achilles' heel of your type of an argument personal accountability... The blaming education is laughable aswell, these people aren't brain dead they might not be able to do advanced algebra, but they aren't knuckle draggers and know right from wrong.

Personal choice and personal responsibility is the main cause of there problems, everything else is secondary and till these are addressed they ll see no improvement.

So you have no suggestions for solving any problems. Let them sort it out themselves.

That attitude was called "laissez faire" by the British during the famine. You would have approved.

You can twist my points all you want, but discussing issues of inequality in a society down not mean assigning blame.

How about answering my original question. Did America solve all it's racism issues in the 60s with civil rights laws?

Cupatae

Foxtrol wrote: »

'Obliterated'... if you mean you deflected, ran, and then topped it off with celebratory naval gazing :rolleyes:

I still await your response to these questions.

The last time I actually bothered to debate your points that's exactly what happened obliterated.. you left the thread it's there for anyone to go back and read if they d like.

Alas ive realized that there's no getting thru to some people and debating with you is a waste of time..

Foxtrol

Cupatae wrote: »

The last time I actually bothered to debate your points that's exactly what happened obliterated.. you left the thread it's there for anyone to go back and read if they d like.

Alas ive realized that there's no getting thru to some people and debating with you is a waste of time..

:rolleyes:

Running from questions again and claiming victory... incredibly pathetic.

Bye!

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

So you have no suggestions for solving any problems. Let them sort it out themselves.

That attitude was called "laissez faire" by the British during the famine. You would have approved.

You can twist my points all you want, but discussing issues of inequality in a society down not mean assigning blame.

How about answering my original question. Did America solve all it's racism issues in the 60s with civil rights laws?

You wanna talk about twisting points then immediately proceed to draw parallels to modern day black people in America and famine here in Ireland.

Why can't you answer the question who do you blame for your short comings and problems society or yourself?

I know why you won't answer it.

Foxtrol

joe40 wrote: »

So you have no suggestions for solving any problems. Let them sort it out themselves.

That attitude was called "laissez faire" by the British during the famine. You would have approved.

You can twist my points all you want, but discussing issues of inequality in a society down not mean assigning blame.

How about answering my original question. Did America solve all it's racism issues in the 60s with civil rights laws?

That poster's problem is they are twisting themselves in knots to say it is all personal responsibility but then at the same time claim black communities are at fault and should be held accountable.

They ran from the white crime statistics because they are a hypocrite. Despite claiming they 'own' white crime statistics they don't want to similarly hold white communities accountable and to the same standards as they do for black ones to 'sort it out themselves'.

Cupatae

Foxtrol wrote: »

That poster's problem is they are twisting themselves in knots to say it is all personal responsibility but then at the same time claim black communities are at fault and should be held accountable.

They ran from the white crime statistics because they are a hypocrite. Despite claiming they 'own' white crime statistics they don't want to similarly hold white communities accountable and to the same standards as they do for black ones to 'sort it out themselves'.

I've eviscerated you in every debate we've had lol it's not much an achievement tho since you back all things BLM support defunding the police and a strong believer in white privilege, label people that disagree with you racist ect ECT you ve embarrassed yourself multiple times on this thread already all people have to do is go back and read you know it's true aswell pretend as you like

What point are we all running from now haha

Foxtrol

Cupatae wrote: »

I've eviscerated you in every debate we've had lol it's not much an achievement tho since you back all things BLM support defunding the police and a strong believer in white privilege, label people that disagree with you racist ect ECT you ve embarrassed yourself multiple times on this thread already all people have to do is go back and read you know it's true aswell pretend as you like

What point are we all running from now haha

'Obliterated'... 'Eviscerated'... :rolleyes:

I'm not sure why I'm bothering but for the third time:

Foxtrol wrote: »

Posters here never stop deflecting from issues facing black people to claim they need to sort out 'black on black crime' or single parent issues. What is the white community doing to sort out the 'culture' of corporate crime? Should they be silent on other issues impacting them until they have reduced it?

Cupatae

Foxtrol wrote: »

'Obliterated'... 'Eviscerated'... :rolleyes:

I'm not sure why I'm bothering but for the third time:

Do you not know the answer to what your asking me ? I genuinely thought it was common knowledge the original point I made was white people aren't trying to blame there crimes on another race or because of another race... Which is what your trying to do for the black community, I'm sure alot of black people would be embarrassed by you and your pandering for them as some helpless people.. but we both know this is about how you look and the topic is secondary to your goal of getting a virtue fix, I know the exact kind of a person you are.. you used an adequate word to describe yourself a few posts back I'll let you guess which

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

You wanna talk about twisting points then immediately proceed to draw parallels to modern day black people in America and famine here in Ireland.

Why can't you answer the question who do you blame for your short comings and problems society or yourself?

I know why you won't answer it.

Ok I'll answer that but will you then answer my question?

The society I grew up in was stable and nurturing. Neither of my parents went beyond primary school but they promoted education as a result I have a third level degree.
( This was 80s not like today)That is an amazing societal change in one generation.

If my background had been different I could have a very different life. You could say I had a priveleged upbringing compared to many others. No wealth but solid healthy environment.

Therefore my shortcomings and problems are down to me, mostly, but we are all products of our environment. My environment was good therefore no negative outcomes.

I'm 50 years old my kids have more opportunities than I had, I had more opportunities than my parents. That's because I live in a reasonably good society, for me.

If I had grown up in a poor part of Dublin with crime and drug abuse all around my life could have been very different. I'm grateful for the privilege of growing up in the environment I did.

We cannot separate ourselves from our society.

So has America solved all it's racism issues with civil rights laws of the 60s? Do you even accept America was racist then.

Foxtrol

Cupatae wrote: »

Do you not know the answer to what your asking me ? I genuinely thought it was common knowledge the original point I made was white people aren't trying to blame there crimes on another race or because of another race... Which is what your trying to do for the black community, I'm sure alot of black people would be embarrassed by you and your pandering for them as some helpless people.. but we both know this is about how you look and the topic is secondary to your goal of getting a virtue fix, I know the exact kind of a person you are.. you used an adequate word to describe yourself a few posts back I'll let you guess which

So you continue to run from the questions... :rolleyes:

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

Ok I'll answer that but will you then answer my question?

The society I grew up in was stable and nurturing. Neither of my parents went beyond primary school but they promoted education as a result I have a third level degree.
( This was 80s not like today)That is an amazing societal change in one generation.

If my background had been different I could have a very different life. You could say I had a priveleged upbringing compared to many others. No wealth but solid healthy environment.

Therefore my shortcomings and problems are down to me, mostly, but we are all products of our environment. My environment was good therefore no negative outcomes.

I'm 50 years old my kids have more opportunities than I had, I had more opportunities than my parents. That's because I live in a reasonably good society, for me.

If I had grown up in a poor part of Dublin with crime and drug abuse all around my life could have been very different. I'm grateful for the privilege of growing up in the environment I did.

We cannot separate ourselves from our society.

Crime is a choice, and many other successful people that have came from poorer areas will tell you that , you can just as easy decide to work your way up the ladder as you can to rob a shop.

You certainly can't say they have lack of opportunity in the US they couldn't have more of it!

This idea of blaming white privilege, society the police , everything bar looking at there own decisions is where the real problem lies, there's obviously gonna be outliers but for the most part this is where the fundemental problem is and till this changes nothing will.. no amount of schools or defunding the police will change it.

You only have to look at other minorities look at Asians and how well they do, why aren't they criminals ? They d a tough past in the us and have all the excuses ready to go if they decided to be criminals.

Everywhere is racist , but the notion that black people are being butchered in there homes and streets in mass and everyone of em being descriminated against is horse ****.

Cupatae

Foxtrol wrote: »

So you continue to run from the questions... :rolleyes:

Do you want me to Google for you what's being don't to stop fraud and the likes ? Honestly ? I gave you a tiny bit of credit but my God... Your beyond reasonable doubt at this stage!

Atleast your buddy joe makes a decent effort to debate something, unlike the trash point scoring you try to engage in

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

Crime is a choice, and many other successful people that have came from poorer areas will tell you that , you can just as easy decide to work your way up the ladder as you can to rob a shop.

You certainly can't say they have lack of opportunity in the US they couldn't have more of it!

This idea of blaming white privilege, society the police , everything bar looking at there own decisions is where the real problem lies, there's obviously gonna be outliers but for the most part this is where the fundemental problem is and till this changes nothing will.. no amount of schools or defunding the police will change it.

You only have to look at other minorities look at Asians and how well they do, why aren't they criminals ? They d a tough past in the us and have all the excuses ready to go if they decided to be criminals.

Everywhere is racist , but the notion that black people are being butchered in there homes and streets in mass and everyone of em being descriminated against is horse ****.

So the problems facing AA communities are their own fault, no wider societal issues. Is that what you saying.

What about poverty in Ireland. Does it exist and is it purely the fault of the people themselves.

I'm certainly not willing to say I would have been able to have the stable life I have if my environment growing up was different.

I'm far from wealthy but I have benefited from stable upbringing.

Foxtrol

Cupatae wrote: »

Do you want me to Google for you what's being don't to stop fraud and the likes ? Honestly ? I gave you a tiny bit of credit but my God... Your beyond reasonable doubt at this stage!

Atleast your buddy joe makes a decent effort to debate something, unlike the trash point scoring you try to engage in

My questions were specifically regarding what the white community is doing, as the general consensus among a certain cohort of posters that you tend to agree with is that the black communities should be doing more to stop crime/single parenthood etc in their communities, on top of what is being done through laws, education, programs etc.

Similarly, some tell black communities to focus on crime within their own communities rather than speaking about other crime, like police brutality. Should white people stay quiet too, until they sort out corporate crime?

Akesh

Foxtrol wrote: »

My questions were specifically regarding what the white community is doing, as the general consensus among a certain cohort of posters that you tend to agree with is that the black communities should be doing more to stop crime/single parenthood etc in their communities, on top of what is being done through laws, education, programs etc.

Similarly, some tell black communities to focus on crime within their own communities rather than speaking about other crime, like police brutality. Should white people stay quiet too, until they sort out corporate crime?

Are white people protesting about corporate crime? What an odd comparison.

These protests are about far more than police brutality, which is an issue that impacts everyone in the US. The issue people don't talk about is black people disproportionately commit more crime, by a large margin, than any other demographic and have way more interaction with police officers because of this.

It's not rocket science.

Foxtrol

Akesh wrote: »

Are white people protesting about corporate crime? What an odd comparison.

These protests are about far more than police brutality, which is an issue that impacts everyone in the US. The issue people don't talk about is black people disproportionately commit more crime, by a large margin, than any other demographic and have way more interaction with police officers because of this.

It's not rocket science.

Only odd if you're hypocritical.

If posters are claiming the black community is supposed to sort crime and other social issues in their communities, then why isn't the white community expected to do similar?