The current trend of removing cash is a serious mistake

hometruths

Cordell wrote: »

With respect to nothing to hide and preventing crime by removing its means: criminals gonna crime. What do you think they will do? Turn to honest jobs? Or, since largely non violent crimes like drug trading and smuggling will not be possible anymore they will turn to robberies and theft?

Presumably the crimes like drug trading and smuggling will not possible anymore because the criminals will not be able to sell their illicit goods?

If so, it would seem a bit pointless to turn to robberies and theft, to start taking BACS payments for hot mobile phones.

irishgeo

ShooterSF wrote: »

The change is already there in society. Work a bar for a 50th one night and a 21st the next and you'll see the difference cashing up. One night is counting 50s and the next is matching visa slips. Personally I agree with op. I use cash whenever possible apart from the last couple of months and even still if I'm using self service I'll use cash. Cash might be king but data is the new emperor.

Curious did you use a loyalty card when shopping?

irishgeo

Geuze wrote: »

A slow movement away from cash and towards card/online payments has no direct link to tax. I don't get what you mean?

If a haircut is 10 + 13.5% VAT = 11.35, the amount of tax does not depend on the payment method.

If I pay by cash or card in Tesco, the VAT is the same.

Perhaps you might elaborate?

Yes it's dodgy builder doing cash jobs you isn't paying tax or the taxi driving who only submits a fraction of his cash journeys. That's where the tax is.

seamus

ShatterAlan wrote: »

If I scavenge a load of scrap metal on my day off and bring it to the scrap yard and he weighs it and gives me some cash, again what entitlement has the Revenue to this?

How do you get to that scrap metal? How do you collect it? How do you transport it? What byproducts are produced in the process? Where does the physical currency come from that the merchant gives to you, etc.

Every transaction, has in some way and to some degree used resources or created waste, and the state has paid for it. This is why Revenue is "entitled" to share of every transaction. Every transaction costs the state money. Taxes pay that cost.

It's not practicable to calculate the exact cost to the state of each transaction, which is why taxes are levied in percentages rather than actual costs.

kenmm

Cordell wrote: »

With respect to nothing to hide and preventing crime by removing its means: criminals gonna crime. What do you think they will do? Turn to honest jobs? Or, since largely non violent crimes like drug trading and smuggling will not be possible anymore they will turn to robberies and theft?

Criminals will always crime, but I disagree that drug trading is non violent (not often violent for the end user, but **** loads of violence over turf wars etc) and just because cash goes away doesn't mean that criminals will not be able to sell drugs. They will just use crypto or stolen cards or dodgy accountants etc

Tordelback

Not an advocate for eliminating cash myself, I think there are wider issues afoot, but working on some large state construction projects over the past decade I have no doubt that cash facilitates the most outrageous levels of tax evasion.

Plenty of lads quite vocally wouldn't work an hour's overtime for anything other than cash, or even take a job where the only hours available were on the books.There's only one reason for that, and it's tax evasion. I watched (hungrily) as thick envelopes were doled out every weekend and holiday.

And these were state projects in the public realm, with major holier-than-thou construction companies in charge, weighed down with roomfuls of QS's, daily client oversight and threat of audit: not Mrs. Kavanagh's conservatory.

ShooterSF

irishgeo wrote: »

Curious did you use a loyalty card when shopping?

I don't. For privacy reasons now but in the past it was pure laziness. The mother takes my receipts and gets points on them from time to time.

meeeeh

Tordelback wrote: »

And these were state projects in the public realm, with major holier-than-thou construction companies in charge, weighed down with roomfuls of QS's, daily client oversight and threat of audit: not Mrs. Kavanagh's conservatory.

We are not in building but we employ people with same skills. There is f all cash floating around where we are and certainly not enough for overtime we pay. Maybe if you deal with Betty down the road but nowadays even farmers put everything into expenses and need recipes. So if you are b to b cash is gone. That being said Corona seemed to be good for cash trading because quite a few of our customers were not as closed as they were supposed to be during the quarantine.

JJJackal

meeeeh wrote: »

We are not in building but we employ people with same skills. There is f all cash floating around where we are and certainly not enough for overtime we pay. Maybe if you deal with Betty down the road but nowadays even farmers put everything into expenses and need recipes. So if you are b to b cash is gone. That being said Corona seemed to be good for cash trading because quite a few of our customers were not as closed as they were supposed to be during tge quarantine.

Expenses are well tracked by farmers.

If they sold 5 bales of hay to a lad with one horse I doubt its recorded as income for example

tobefrank321

Another thing a cashless society would remove is cash in transit robberies, ATM attacks and thefts, and violent robberies of shop cash registers.

tobefrank321

Mavis Panicky Easel wrote: »

In simple terms, without cash (and excluding barters) all transactions have a (digital) paper trial. If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about.


Also in the same light, why even bother with having curtains on the windows in your homes, take them all down, sure you have nothing to hide.

There is about as much chance of someone going through your bin to find something on you, as go through your credit card statements.

This may come as a shock to some, but most people and organisations have no interest in what others spend their money on, unless they are engaged in serious criminality or terrorism. The CIA or CAB are not interested in that sneaky bottle of wine. They might be interested if you are engaged in serious criminal activity though.

Banks will look through your credit history and statements if you apply for a mortgage which is their right as they want to make sure you are able to repay it. And if you are spending large amounts of cash off the books on betting or alcohol, then you probably shouldn't apply for a mortgage as you are only fooling yourself and your family if married.

It sounds like people who are afraid of a cashless society do tend to have something to hide, whether its an alcohol or gambling addiction, tax evasion etc.

Montage of Feck

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I remember paying for a taxi in Hamburg in 2006 with a debit card. 24 years later it's still an ordeal in Irish cabs. I'm surprised revenue haven't cracked down on them, they crack down on everyone else.

Germany is still very much a cash society though.

meeeeh

tobefrank321 wrote: »

It sounds like people who are afraid of a cashless society do tend to have something to hide, whether its an alcohol or gambling addiction, tax evasion etc.

So anyone who disagrees with you is either an addict or criminal. Nice.

RandomViewer

seamus wrote: »

How do you get to that scrap metal? How do you collect it? How do you transport it? What byproducts are produced in the process? Where does the physical currency come from that the merchant gives to you, etc.

Every transaction, has in some way and to some degree used resources or created waste, and the state has paid for it. This is why Revenue is "entitled" to share of every transaction. Every transaction costs the state money. Taxes pay that cost.

It's not practicable to calculate the exact cost to the state of each transaction, which is why taxes are levied in percentages rather than actual costs.

Scrap metal, whatever tax would have been paid when the item was new, revenue have no entitlements to tax for scrap or second hand goods,
Funny it's cents per litre on fuel, would lose too much when price drops.

RandomViewer

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Another thing a cashless society would remove is cash in transit robberies, ATM attacks and thefts, and violent robberies of shop cash registers.

Just white goods, alcohol and tobacco thefts then?

El Tarangu

RandomViewer wrote: »

Scrap metal, whatever tax would have been paid when the item was new, revenue have no entitlements to tax for scrap or second hand goods,

Depends; what if he were to get very good at collecting it, and sell €50k worth in a year; the taxman would surely come calling then.

El Tarangu

RandomViewer wrote: »

Just white goods, alcohol and tobacco thefts then?

How will they fence the stolen goods once they have them, if they can't sell them for cash? Sure, they can barter them for something else they need, but it makes the entire proposition a lot less attractive.

El Tarangu

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I didn't say that people lost their deposits. But they had wealth deliberately taken from them in the form of property foreclosures, austerity measures, the gutting of public services, etc. You can't just legally rob people of their money but you can scam them out of it.

So you lament the government cutting public services (because they didn't have enough tax revenue coming in) on the one hand, but then on the other hand:

ShatterAlan wrote: »

For example if I want to go to the bank/cash machine and withdraw some notes and then rock up to the local farmer and give him a crisp 20 euro note for a few bags of cooking apples and a few more bags of blackberries and raspberries and gooseberries that grow around his land then what the fcuk has that got to do with the government. What's their entitlement to this P2P transaction. If the only way I can pay him is via a bank transfer then a tax will be levied on him and maybe a sales tax on me. Why? Fcuk off goverment.

You want to have your cake and eat it. I imagine that there are a lot of other people who enjoy the benefits of well-funded government services, but who then become positively libertarian when taxation applies to them; a cashless society would go a long way to ensuring that everyone pays all the taxes that they owe.

MrMusician18

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

My local Chinese is one example.

I've seen a few other small businesses where the card-machine seems to go out of order for weeks at a time. I'm guessing it's because the bank removes some facility from them.

Out of order... Lol.

You're that naive?!

RandomViewer

El Tarangu wrote: »

Depends; what if he were to get very good at collecting it, and sell €50k worth in a year; the taxman would surely come calling then.

Why ? No Vat due and if hes gathering it in his own time ,technically if the Greens get in he might even be getting a grant to do it

RandomViewer

El Tarangu wrote: »

How will they fence the stolen goods once they have them, if they can't sell them for cash? Sure, they can barter them for something else they need, but it makes the entire proposition a lot less attractive.

You really are that naive, if anything bartering will become commonplace , publican takes the drink in exchange for catering party/ wedding?

El Tarangu

RandomViewer wrote: »

You really are that naive, if anything bartering will become commonplace , publican takes the drink in exchange for catering party/ wedding?

Your example shows all of the impracticalities of barter as a system: the person robbing the drink would need to have a upcoming wedding/party, and he would need to go around driving a van full of stolen goods from pub to pub until he found a publican (i) dodgy enough to do a dodgy deal, and (ii) who happened to be free the night of the thief's wedding/party.

Again, it wouldn't eliminate criminality completely, but it would certainly remove many of the conditions that make it a profitable proposition in many instances.

ShooterSF

El Tarangu wrote: »

How will they fence the stolen goods once they have them, if they can't sell them for cash? Sure, they can barter them for something else they need, but it makes the entire proposition a lot less attractive.

Bitcoin? Or if less fancy revolut sending money. How do you know what I sold second hand and if I legally owned it? Or are we stopping all transfer of money between citizens too?

El Tarangu

RandomViewer wrote: »

Why ? No Vat due and if hes gathering it in his own time ,technically if the Greens get in he might even be getting a grant to do it

This makes zero difference: if you sell €50k of anything, there will be some degree of tax due.

4068ac1elhodqr

Bartering is indeed the net result of the dash to get rid of cash.
A version of EbaySwapShop?

From the tabloids, Rolex watches appear to be popular and used by some for 'goods exchanges'.

Bear in mind, the barter has existed long before coinage.
Stoneage man 10,000BC, in cave 1 likely did barter exchanges with cave 2 on a daily basis.

RandomViewer

El Tarangu wrote: »

Your example shows all of the impracticalities of barter as a system: the person robbing the drink would need to have a upcoming wedding/party, and he would need to go around driving a van full of stolen goods from pub to pub until he found a publican (i) dodgy enough to do a dodgy deal, and (ii) who happened to be free the night of the thief's wedding/party.

Again, it wouldn't eliminate criminality completely, but it would certainly remove many of the conditions that make it a profitable proposition in many instances.

Criminality has been rife since the dawn of time, the removal of cash won't change that.

El Tarangu

RandomViewer wrote: »

Criminality has been rife since the dawn of time, the removal of cash won't change that.

No, it won't. I never I said it would; it would make it more difficult, though. The convoluted circumstances required to make work the example that you proposed certainly demonstrates that.

Das Reich

How we going to pay for sex?

4068ac1elhodqr

Das Reich wrote: »

How we going to pay for sex?

Offer shoes (the heels with the red bit on the underside), handbags (croc leather) and shinny trinkets, 'guess.

kenmm

tobefrank321 wrote: »

There is about as much chance of someone going through your bin to find something on you, as go through your credit card statements.

This may come as a shock to some, but most people and organisations have no interest in what others spend their money on, unless they are engaged in serious criminality or terrorism. The CIA or CAB are not interested in that sneaky bottle of wine. They might be interested if you are engaged in serious criminal activity though.

Banks will look through your credit history and statements if you apply for a mortgage which is their right as they want to make sure you are able to repay it. And if you are spending large amounts of cash off the books on betting or alcohol, then you probably shouldn't apply for a mortgage as you are only fooling yourself and your family if married.

It sounds like people who are afraid of a cashless society do tend to have something to hide, whether its an alcohol or gambling addiction, tax evasion etc.

A cashless society doesn't mean the leap towards the government spying on you lol

But who would be interested? Corporations. And it wouldn't take much. A lot of people already trade some privacy for convenience with Google Pay/ Apple Pay. Do you think they are not keeping record of every transaction for analysis?

A shift towards a larger private healthcare company, and them offering the ability to reduce premiums in return for access to your financial data? Or they profile you based on what google tell them using other indicators (i.e. you fit the same profile as others, therefore your spending habits are probably the same, therefore 5% more for you).

These are not doomsday scenarios, but they are compromises, that many ill soon feel they wont have the choice to make (and as we have seen, as one generation dies out, another one replaces them where these compromises are already in place and it is second nature for the kids that are now becoming adults).

So the Orwellian picture you paint where the gov will be spying on your every move isn't likely, but the scenario where many corporations will have more of your data is creeping in.