The current trend of removing cash is a serious mistake

El Tarangu

RandomViewer wrote: »

Why? If Revenue are that mad for the money they should gather the scrap themselves , tax is already paid on it it's illegal to take twice,

I don't know where you are getting your ideas from; if you are a PAYE worker, your salary has already been taxed the first time, and yet if you used some of that money to buy a bottle of wine, you will be taxed a second and a third time (VAT and excise duties).

Getting €50k of income, except arising from some instances of inheritance, will have a tax liability attached, regardless of how you acquired it.

ohnonotgmail

Mavis Panicky Easel wrote: »

Access to medical data between registered medical practitioners would be the perfect environment for sharing data, if this is not the case.
Every GP, and hosiptal ward, has a computer on desk, a database click away.

it would be ideal if they did but they dont. any updates between my gp and the hospital and vice versa are via letter. all data transfers are point to point

Feisar

I don't spend money on anything that I need to hide and I would be willing to sacrifice my privacy if there was a greater good to be had from going cashless.

However I like the ability to have something on my person that I can trade with.

While working abroad one time I went to an ATM one Friday evening only for the machine to swallow my card. At the time I didn't have a second bank card/credit card. Only for the €300 I kept in the house for emergencies I'd have been screwed.

Dodge

Feisar wrote: »

I don't spend money on anything that I need to hide and I would be willing to sacrifice my privacy if there was a greater good to be had from going cashless.

However I like the ability to have something on my person that I can trade with.

While working abroad one time I went to an ATM one Friday evening only for the machine to swallow my card. At the time I didn't have a second bank card/credit card. Only for the €300 I kept in the house for emergencies I'd have been screwed.

That’s an argument for a cashless society. Card can’t be swallowed if you’re not getting cash...

Not directed at you but some of the arguments put forward here are absolutely mental. Insurance companies checking your receipts to see if you’ve been eating crisps. Ahahaha

Feisar

Dodge wrote: »

That’s an argument for a cashless society. Card can’t be swallowed if you’re not getting cash...

Not directed at you but some of the arguments put forward here are absolutely mental. Insurance companies checking your receipts to see if you’ve been eating crisps. Ahahaha

Dunno why I didn't think of that!

Naos

double jobbing wrote: »

Tap and go is the preserve of the moron. Takes twice, three times as long to complete payment.

It takes about 5 seconds.

If you handed over 5 euro in coins, it's going to take at least 5 seconds for the person to count it and then you have the

"it's all there"
"oh yeah looks good"...
"it's all there isn't it?"
"yeah, just, no you're grand. Thanks"

type exchange.

makeorbrake

Removing cash is an inevitability - but not necessarily a good one. The powers that be will delight in having every single transaction you've ever made on record. The state could simply cut you off - and freeze your wealth at the push of a button.

Step outside of the system and support decentralised currencies such as Bitcoin - the people's money. We prised apart church and state (almost). We need to do the same with currency and state.

scilover

As much as I find it troublesome, I think in the near future it will be inevitable. The mall near my area has already implemented this because of covid.

ILoveYourVibes

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Privacy for what? To dodge paying tax?
Removing it will be one of the best things to happen.

Removing cash won't stop that.

Overheal

scilover wrote: »

As much as I find it troublesome, I think in the near future it will be inevitable. The mall near my area has already implemented this because of covid.

If we went back to silver it wouldn’t be an issue

Far more practically though we need to devise better ways to sterilize our cash, like having UV tills or something.

The contactless cards are really handy right now though.

Re: privacy not just black market stuff but also your bank. Try to get a mortgage and everything you do being cataloged... gross. Every $0.99 app, every random small purchase from a corner shop, just hooking you up through actuarial tables and **** and using big data to decide your fate.

El Tarangu

makeorbrake wrote: »

Step outside of the system and support decentralised currencies such as Bitcoin - the people's money. We prised apart church and state (almost). We need to do the same with currency and state.

Bitcoin is certainly an interesting vehicle for speculation, but I don't think that there are many people interested in holding a portion of their wealth in a commodity that dropped 80% of its value over the course of a year.

makeorbrake

El Tarangu wrote: »

Bitcoin is certainly an interesting vehicle for speculation, but I don't think that there are many people interested in holding a portion of their wealth in a commodity that dropped 80% of its value over the course of a year.

There's no suggestion that you should hold all your wealth in bitcoin today - so that's not an issue. Hold 5% of your wealth in bitcoin as a hedge against the rampant currency printing that's going on right now. When you size that allocation correctly, it provides for an asymmetric bet against the current system. Use gold alongside it.

Its use as a 'speculative vehicle' is not its raison d'etre. It's just a phase in its development. The very same with the volatility you mention. Volatility has already been proven to be reducing - but it's a process that's going to play out over a longer timeframe as its market capitalisation expands. People tend to focus on its drop from its 2017 high - zoom out and look at the higher lows it has put in year on year instead and it presents a completely different picture. Also, have a look at the performance of gold in the 1970s. Over the course of 20 months, it corrected by 50%. Over the course of that decade, it had increased by 2,300%. Curiously, that gold run coincided with the doing away of the gold standard at the beginning of that decade.

Otherwise, although psuedo-anonymous, bitcoin can be used anonymously or swapped out for another digital currency to guarantee anonymity. It's also peer to peer cash - nobody can prevent its transfer from party A to party B. Nor can they confiscate it. These are also very relevant factors in terms of replacing cash.

KyussB

The poster didn't say holding all wealth, they said a portion. Holding a portion of your wealth in a speculative vehicle that regularly drops ~80% in value, is a stupid idea.

The primary uses of bitcoin are for criminality/fraud and speculation - the average person has no use for it, other than to participate in one of those.

Nobody believes gold-bugs/Austrian-economists/Bitcoin-enthusiasts permanent predictions of hyperinflation just around the corner. Austrian Economics has almost nothing of value to say about macroeconomics - it has a terrible track record - and persistent hyperinflation scaremongering discredits it routinely.

makeorbrake

makeorbrake wrote: »

......... The state could simply cut you off - and freeze your wealth at the push of a button............

CAB struggle doing that every day so I don't see the state doing it anytime soon to any individual without very good reason

El Tarangu

makeorbrake wrote: »

There's no suggestion that you should hold all your wealth in bitcoin today - so that's not an issue.

Indeed, and I know that's not what you were suggesting. But the advantages of bitcoin are likely only to appeal to people who are into investing or particularly interested in privacy; for the average person, cash (liquid or in digital form) is still a lot more secure, less volatile option - regardless of how often the ECB fire up the printing presses.

paw patrol

El Tarangu wrote: »

Bitcoin is certainly an interesting vehicle for speculation, but I don't think that there are many people interested in holding a portion of their wealth in a commodity that dropped 80% of its value over the course of a year.

while you are correct , if more people used bitcoin it would be more stable. I can see this happening in the future.


Currently it's handy to use to trade (the transaction) and an immediate conversion to FIAT upon receipt.

El Tarangu

paw patrol wrote: »

while you are correct , if more people used bitcoin it would be more stable.

In the long term, probably yes - in the short-term, it would cause a spike in the price, and probably cause more volatility.

Currently it's handy to use to trade (the transaction) and an immediate conversion to FIAT upon receipt.

Still sounds less handy than buying something with euros (or whatever) using Maestro or Revolut or Bancontact, or equivalent.

4068ac1elhodqr

G4S removes 1,000 of it's cash handling jobs in the uk, due to reduced demand for cash.

makeorbrake

KyussB wrote: »

The poster didn't say holding all wealth, they said a portion. Holding a portion of your wealth in a speculative vehicle that regularly drops ~80% in value, is a stupid idea.

Firstly, it's purpose is not to be a 'speculative vehicle' - that's just a bi-product of its ongoing development.
Secondly, what lacks intelligence is the suggestion that it's stupid to hold 5% of your wealth in bitcoin - when you're exposing your overall portfolio to asymmetric risk - with asymmetric upside, whilst sizing that investment correctly to account for risk.

KyussB wrote: »

The primary uses of bitcoin are for criminality/fraud and speculation - the average person has no use for it, other than to participate in one of those.

That's inaccurate and incorrect. According to data published earlier this year, just one percent of crypto transactions were found to be illicit.
As regards its utility for ordinary people, as its availability to ordinary people continues to grow through more and more robust on/off ramps and as the UX improves, people will use it. What's not to like about being able to transact value directly from Person A to Person B - without the need for any intermediary - whether that be a government authority or a bank. It also strips out their fees, counterparty risk and delays - of which there is plenty when it comes to international remittance.

KyussB wrote: »

Nobody believes gold-bugs/Austrian-economists/Bitcoin-enthusiasts permanent predictions of hyperinflation just around the corner.

So the people that participate in the $10 trillion gold market are all deluded in your view? You would never recommend to anyone to buy gold according to that statement.
As regards rampant inflation and hyperinflation - and general state and central bank mismanagement, in any given year, there are a list of countries whose citizens are exposed to precisely that. Ask anyone from Lebanon right now about that. Or Venezuela, Iran, Turkey, Zimbabwe and Argentina. Every single year there is a list of countries with mismanaged currencies - so it's wrong to dismiss that.
It's also wrong in the context of what are considered to be the better managed currencies like the euro and dollar. This experiment that we have going on right now is exactly that (the rampant money printing) - an experiment. Nobody actually knows the outcome as we've never been here before - to say otherwise is misguided.

KyussB wrote: »

Austrian Economics has almost nothing of value to say about macroeconomics

That's your opinion - or the opinion of Keynesian economists who are diametrically opposed to it. It's not fact.

KyussB wrote: »

and persistent hyperinflation scaremongering discredits it routinely.

The very statement discredits you - rampant inflation, hyperinflation and general central bank mismanagement are in effect in this world with a list of examples at any given time.

El Tarangu wrote: »

Indeed, and I know that's not what you were suggesting. But the advantages of bitcoin are likely only to appeal to people who are into investing or particularly interested in privacy; for the average person, cash (liquid or in digital form) is still a lot more secure, less volatile option - regardless of how often the ECB fire up the printing presses.

I would have thought the average person should have an interest in privacy. As regards volatility - its a temporary phase in the development of bitcoin. See my example re. gold in the '70s in my previous post.
Bitcoin is highly secure - it has never been broken. However, people do have to take responsibility for the storage of their private key - that requires a shift in thinking as we've become accustomed to having a third party custody our wealth.
Other than that, from millenials down, digital transactions like this will become second nature - and at the same time, the UX is being improved upon. Here's an example of a seamless bitcoin payment for a coffee.

Augeo wrote: »

CAB struggle doing that every day so I don't see the state doing it anytime soon to any individual without very good reason

Well, that means that you wish to put full faith in the state at all times - on the assumption that they will always do the right thing. That's not something I wish to do - but everyone takes their own view on that. Certainly, things are more stable in Ireland than many other places but the past is not indicative of the future. There are many examples abroad where you certainly can't and shouldn't trust the state.

paw patrol wrote: »

while you are correct , if more people used bitcoin it would be more stable. I can see this happening in the future.

Exactly. As its market capitalisation grows, volatility will continually dissipate. We've already seen that over the course of its short existence thus far. There is speculative interest in bitcoin right now - but over the fullness of time, it will be as boring as gold, with little in the way of volatility comparatively.

nofiller69

LOL at the boomers here arguing about Bitcoin.

Everyone has moved on to DeFi and ERC-20 tokens. Thats where the money is right now, people are creating pools leveraged by other ERC 20 tokens (Ethereum, Chainlink, SNX, wrappedBTC, etc etc etc).

You're all arguing about the oldest, most outdated cryptocurrency. It all seems incongruent and out of touch with reality.

JohnnyFlash

nofiller69 wrote: »

LOL at the boomers here arguing about Bitcoin.

Everyone has moved on to DeFi and ERC-20 tokens. Thats where the money is right now, people are creating pools leveraged by other ERC 20 tokens (Ethereum, Chainlink, SNX, wrappedBTC, etc etc etc).

You're all arguing about the oldest, most outdated cryptocurrency. It all seems incongruent and out of touch with reality.

The only thing dumber than a Bitcoin maximalist is someone who thinks their shïtcoin of choice is somehow revolutionary. It’s all a big Rube Goldberg machine designed to separate stupid young men from their pitiful savings.

nofiller69

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The only thing dumber than a Bitcoin maximalist is someone who thinks their shïtcoin of choice is somehow revolutionary. It’s all a big Rube Goldberg machine designed to separate stupid young men from their pitiful savings.

Yes and? The money I've made the past months is equal to someones annual salary.

Sorolla

The thing about money lodged in a bank account is that it is no longer your money - as long as it is lodged it belongs to the bank.

The money only becomes your money once you withdraw it from the account.

If cash is abolished and everything becomes electronic it will then be very easy for the bank to introduce negative interest rates on deposits.

Cash is good.

Everybody should pay cash

There is no known case of cash causing COVID to be transferred to anyone

Abolish cash at your peril

nofiller69

Sorolla wrote: »

The thing about money lodged in a bank account is that it is no longer your money - as long as it is lodged it belongs to the bank.

The money only becomes your money once you withdraw it from the account.

If cash is abolished and everything becomes electronic it will then be very easy for the bank to introduce negative interest rates on deposits.

Cash is good.

Everybody should pay cash

There is no known case of cash causing COVID to be transferred to anyone

Abolish cash at your peril

Outdated boomer talk.

Cash is constantly lowering in value. Cash you hold under the mattress depreciates every second. Only low IQ people store cash that can physically degrade.

Poor people save. Rich people invest.

Dodge

Jaysus this thread has gone off the rails

makeorbrake

Sorolla wrote: »

The thing about money lodged in a bank account is that it is no longer your money - as long as it is lodged it belongs to the bank.

You're absolutely right. Once you lodge funds to a bank, legally the bank owns the depositors funds. All the depositor is left with is an IOU or promise to pay - with the depositor becoming an unsecured creditor.

Sorolla

nofiller69 wrote: »

Outdated boomer talk.

Cash is constantly lowering in value. Cash you hold under the mattress depreciates every second. Only low IQ people store cash that can physically degrade.

Poor people save. Rich people invest.

It is advisable to hold cash and also material Assets (shares, bonds property etc)

What we never know is if there will be inflation or deflation

Cash is king during deflation
Material assets are king during inflation

Always look upon cash as an insurance policy - any fall in buying power is the insurance premium

Everyone should save cash AND invest in material assets

It’s not an either/or option

nofiller69

Dodge wrote: »

Jaysus this thread has gone off the rails

Eh not really. I find that boomers like to talk about bitcoin like its this dangerous concept full of hidden dangers etc etc etc.

Meanwhile the cryptocurrency world has taken a wilder turn with synthetic pools (basically synthetic collaterized debt obligations) trying to simulate the housing market pump circa 1980 - 2008.

Stock market is in bits right now, and many stubborn men in my family have lost a ton of money, especially during the Oil Futures and ETF scandal that happened due to the corona.

At some point all of this will crash.

Crypto right now is one of the easiest ways of making money if you know what youre doing. The decentralized finance game which has only really popped up in the past few months is something boomers cant grasp yet

For example how many of you know these words:

>Uniswap
>ERC 20
>Proof of Liquidity
>Liquidity Pools
>Pool tokens
>Balancers
>Decentralized Finance
>Staking


And many more words I cant think of right now consists of the current trend in crypto. Unfortunately the older folk only have bitcoin and stocks to reference, which causes them to completely misconstrue the whole point, and thus conclude that >>NO ONE<< will put money into crypto despite the billions already pouring in and the millionaires being made overnight - See: Statera

Sorolla

makeorbrake wrote: »

You're absolutely right. Once you lodge funds to a bank, legally the bank owns the depositors funds. All the depositor is left with is an IOU or promise to pay - with the depositor becoming an unsecured creditor.

Also a reason (if you have a good hiding place at home) to hide a few multiples of your monthly salary in cash

nofiller69

Sorolla wrote: »

It is advisable to hold cash and also material Assets (shares, bonds property etc)

What we never know is if there will be inflation or deflation

Cash is king during deflation
Material assets are king during inflation

Always look upon cash as an insurance policy - any fall in buying power is the insurance premium

Everyone should save cash AND invest in material assets

It’s not an either/or option

Cash is never king mate, sorry that was indoctrinated to your generation growing up but everyone is slowly learning thats false.

Assets can be liquidated instantly now, this isnt the 1980s where you can to go through a broker. I liquidated 20k worth of Ethereum last night and got it this morning.

Again, thats all outdated boomer talk from a slower generation