The current trend of removing cash is a serious mistake

JohnnyFlash

Wibbs wrote: »

WTF is all this retarded and repeated "boomer" ballsology?

A guy with about a hundred quids worth of crypto shiïtcoins thinks he’s a mixture of Gordon Gecko and Screech from Saved by the Bell.

KyussB

makeorbrake wrote: »

...

The point doesn't stand - for the average person, the deposit guarantee with banks covers them perfectly. Anyone who stores large amounts of money or crypto in their home is an idiot.

Your argument seems to be, that because there are existing means of fraud/money-laundering, that banks should just go without checks and allow instant unlimited transfers anywhere?...making fraud and unlimited money laundering way easier and more costly...No thanks, there are reasons for delays in bank transfers - they have to be properly regulated.

4 out of 5 of the countries you listed are or have recently been under sanctions...I agree with you that sanctions and the weaponization of the international financial system are wrong, though.

Saying something only has to happen 'once', doesn't make it any more likely to happen. The Earth only has to be hit by a big enough asteroid 'once'.

Shifting currency exchange values are perfectly normal, and nothing is different with crypto there. The major currencies will undergo shifts, maybe even major shifts in rare circumstances, in relative value - nothing wrong with that.

KyussB

nofiller69 wrote: »

Thats exactly it. Get it, get your pump and get out. I did this about a dozen times with no fail.

Well at least the intent to pump a bubble and sucker people out of money is open and honest, here! No qualms about ethics...(you know...the thing which stops most other people wanting to sucker others out of money..).

Wibbs

KyussB wrote: »

No qualms about ethics...(you know...the thing which stops most other people wanting to sucker others out of money..).

Generally one can only con the greedy or occasionally the desperate.

Eric Cartman

nofiller69 wrote: »

Thats exactly it. Get it, get your pump and get out. I did this about a dozen times with no fail.

whats the easiest exchange to liquidate a load of coins. Everyone I know trying to liquidate over 100k at a go of almost anything runs in to issues.

makeorbrake

KyussB wrote: »

The point doesn't stand - for the average person, the deposit guarantee with banks covers them perfectly.

The point stands - as in what I stated is entirely correct. Firstly, the EU bank guarantee was brought in to try and muster some confidence in the system because people did lose their savings due to government/central bank ineptitude and failing banks.
Secondly, we don't live in a vacuum. Not everyone is covered by one bank guarantee. I have funds in banks that don't have bank guarantees because no such schemes exist. The FDIC guarantee in the US only covers US residents.

KyussB wrote: »

Anyone who stores large amounts of money or crypto in their home is an idiot.

Anyone who follows stringent security protocols for the self custody of crypto is not an idiot. To suggest such a thing makes you ill-informed at best. At worst....that's something else entirely.

KyussB wrote: »

Your argument seems to be, that because there are existing means of fraud/money-laundering, that banks should just go without checks and allow instant unlimited transfers anywhere?...making fraud and unlimited money laundering way easier and more costly...No thanks, there are reasons for delays in bank transfers - they have to be properly regulated.

No thanks, yourself. We untangled church and state. Now it's time to remove the monopoly when it comes to currency and state. People are being sold a ruse. AML/KYC is about control of ordinary citizens - delving in to their financial privacy. It's also a manner in which countries weaponise finance (sanctions). The world didn't fall apart without them. It won't again if we can manage to free ourselves from them. As for organized crime, these guys know exactly how to play those systems - they have the resources to do so. For the most part they are facilitated by mainstream banks in that regard - ask HSBC and Danske Bank for starters. Do you realise how many hundreds of billions have been facilitated by the banks on behalf of organised crime? It's ordinary people that get caught up in them - and pay for it in time, money, friction....or through disenfranchisement (the unbanked).

KyussB wrote: »

4 out of 5 of the countries you listed are or have recently been under sanctions...I agree with you that sanctions and the weaponization of the international financial system are wrong, though.

We can tease through every single example if you wish. However, it's a moot point. At the end of the day, sovereign currencies - and the ordinary people who hold them - have continually suffered due to government/CB mismanagement or sanctions. If you agree that sanctions are wrong, then the only solution to that is to rebuild the international financial system such that people have more options. That's where decentralised currency comes in (albeit that it steps outside the system and runs in parallel).

KyussB wrote: »

Saying something only has to happen 'once', doesn't make it any more likely to happen. The Earth only has to be hit by a big enough asteroid 'once'.

And yet I've backed my point up by providing commentary from a well recognised economist that states that this is a real possibility right now.

KyussB wrote: »

Shifting currency exchange values are perfectly normal, and nothing is different with crypto there. The major currencies will undergo shifts, maybe even major shifts in rare circumstances, in relative value - nothing wrong with that.

We're not talking about gentle shifts. Are the Lebanese people happy with your commentary on that right now?

KyussB wrote: »

Well at least the intent to pump a bubble and sucker people out of money is open and honest, here! No qualms about ethics...(you know...the thing which stops most other people wanting to sucker others out of money..).

I don't agree with his stance whatsoever - I think its disrespectful, ill-informed and obnoxious. However, speculation exists in all markets. People speculate on the conventional market just as much as they do in crypto. The same with FX, commodities, etc. Hell, especially right now with the 'number go up' meme applying to the conventional markets moreso than crypto; with the 'Davy-day-trader'/Robinhood school of 'investment' and free money sloshing around to boost the markets. That doesn't mean that there isn't something tangible at the heart of decentralised currency. Over time, bitcoin's volatility will dissipate. I gave the example of gold in the 70s - it's no different.

Overheal

^ moot*

JohnnyFlash

Hell is a crypto bro arguing with someone who believes in MTT and multi quoting.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

RandomViewer wrote: »

Drug dealers will just use Sterling/ Dollars, gold sovereigns whatever, if you legalise drugs the criminals will find another cash flow, tiger kidnapping, kiddie porn, guns, scrum always finds its level

Many already do those things. The drug trade gives criminals a massive source of revenue that they wouldn't have otherwise.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Wibbs wrote: »

Wow, a demotivational. We're in the antique memes roadshow.

Overheal

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Wow, a demotivational. We're in the antique memes roadshow.

TLJ is a treasure, and a damn fine antique.

KyussB

makeorbrake wrote: »

...

There's nothing new to say in response there - just a rehash of what has already been said. Lebanon is yet another country with foreign-denominated debts. That will tank any country, no matter what currency they use themselves.

makeorbrake

KyussB wrote: »

Lebanon is yet another country with foreign-denominated debts. That will tank any country, no matter what currency they use themselves.

So the USD is the world reserve currency. Therefore, most countries have their debts denominated in USD. Are you saying that there is no way out in those circumstances? Is it an inevitability and that neither their government nor central bank is culpable? If so, I've a couple of questions...

- All countries with USD denominated debt have been under pressure with the rush into USD this year and a scarcity of euro-dollars. But why have they not all ended up bankrupt like Lebanon?

- How could that even have been the case if the Lebanese Lira had been pegged to the USD since 1997? Could it be that the Lebanese Central Bank went into rampant money printing mode in late 2019?

- If it's not government/CB mismanagement and it's 'just because', surely you can't recommend that Lebanese people should have confidence in whatever replacement currency they dream up next?

- The very same point for any other country with foreign denominated debts.

- And if the Lebanese government/CB has been culpable, equally, surely you can't recommend any replacement Lebanese central bank currency to the Lebanese people?


The US seems to get away with extensive money printing because it has the world reserve currency. However, surely there's a limit or a line that shouldn't be crossed? (in terms of money printing). Where is that line? Even if we knew where it is, we have no earthly idea how many USD are in circulation today - nor will we tomorrow or any other day.
If the answer is that there is no line, should the ordinary american not say to the IRS, i'm not paying my taxes this year - you can print them off instead...and by the way, would you mind transferring $2,000/month in Universal Basic Income (UBI) into my account whilst you're at it. The very same query re. the Euro and the ECB.

Meanwhile, bitcoin is hard money - with a fixed supply. It's known how many bitcoin have been issued today - and how many will have been issued at any point in time in the future. No-one can tamper with that as its pre-programmed digital money.

Check out this Forbes article which was published last Thursday. Scroll down to the end of the article - Koffman suggests three alternatives for Lebanon going forward - with bitcoin taking its place amongst them.

KyussB

makeorbrake wrote: »

So the USD is the world reserve currency. Therefore, most countries have their debts denominated in USD.
...

Eh? No, that is wrong. There are only a limited number of countries, that only issue a portion of their bonds denominated in a foreign currency.
That is always a bad idea, because if the exchange rate of their local currency shifts unfavourably, that amplifies both the size of that foreign denominated debt and servicing costs on it, in terms of the local currency.

The rest of your post is based on the misunderstanding of debt/bond denomination.

It's exactly that people can't tell Revenue to stuff it, that they are forced to pay taxes in the currency Revenue demands - or end up in prison - that grounds government control over what currency is dominant.

James Brown

snoopboggybog wrote: »

Your hardly going to have your life savings stuffed under the mattress now are you?

If you keep your money in a brown bag in your wardrobe you just might be the Minister of Finance.

makeorbrake

KyussB wrote: »

The rest of your post is based on the misunderstanding of debt/bond denomination.

You referred initially to foreign denominated debt - not bonds denominated in a foreign currency. Most countries have debt obligations in USD given that international trade implicates the USD as world reserve currency; given that oil is priced in USD, etc. Anyway, we're moving away from the central point.

Which is...central banks screw up all the time whatever the specifics. They screwed up in this example. I highly doubt that the Lebanese people will have full faith and confidence in a rehashed Lebanese Lira on the back of that mismanagement.

KyussB wrote: »

It's exactly that people can't tell Revenue to stuff it, that they are forced to pay taxes in the currency Revenue demands - or end up in prison - that grounds government control over what currency is dominant.

You're missing the point entirely. Amidst this epic level of central bank magic money, people are beginning to question 'what is money'. They're beginning to question inequitable CB/Fed practices. That's where the 'no need to pay taxes' viewpoint is coming from - not an actual refusal to pay taxes - all other things being equal.

beggars_bush

Children are losing all value on money
They never see it used
Never see it saved in a piggy bank

It has removed the physical connection to money and the reluctance to spend it

makeorbrake

beggars_bush wrote: »

It has removed the physical connection to money and the reluctance to spend it

Monetary policy in the western world is encouraging indebtedness. Cheap money and easy credit, alongside savers getting punished with their wealth being eroded stealthily through inflation. At state level we're continually borrowing from tomorrow. At some stage, you'd imagine 'tomorrow' has to come home to roost.

Here's an example of that in real time.

gogo

beggars_bush wrote: »

Children are losing all value on money
They never see it used
Never see it saved in a piggy bank

It has removed the physical connection to money and the reluctance to spend it

Nonsense, I have a 7 year old who is more astute than I ever was with money at that age...
He knows exactly how much he has in the bank & where it came from. He has a child saver account with a ‘massive‘ 35 euros left in it.. he’s never seen that money In cash form, lodged to by aunts/granny etc, but he knows exactly how much he has. His last big purchase was a gremlin from eBay, he weighted up that purchase pretty much the same as I’d weight up buying a car.

Understanding money is thought at home, by not splashing cash at your kids, understanding that things cost money and where that money comes from, teaching kids from a young age that once the money is gone it’s gone .... not by using a piggy bank...

James Brown

beggars_bush wrote: »

Children are losing all value on money
They never see it used
Never see it saved in a piggy bank

It has removed the physical connection to money and the reluctance to spend it

I learned the value of money because I hardly ever saw any. Its absence gave it value.

Jinglejangle69

Bowie wrote: »

I learned the value of money because I hardly ever saw any. Its absence gave it value.

So you appreciate it doesn't grow on trees and things have to be earned?

Yet everyday here you advocate for houses to be given to anyone who wants one for 40 euro a week.

No questions asked.

Any rent arrears you just blame the council?

Im not buying it.

BillyBiggs

meeeeh wrote: »

All this type of threads actually show us is that people with Revolout accounts like to tell everyone that they have a Revolout account. A lot.

Speaking of cash and Revolut, try taking money out of your Revolut at A.T.M.s on a semi regular basis and you’ll get hit with horrendous fees.

Rubberchikken

I only have cash.
Have an account in the credit union. Pay gets out into that and I withdraw what I need.
I know exactly what I spend and where.
I had a bank ACC and debit card years ago but got tired if the charges.

I honestly don't see the issue with people who only want to spend cash. Should be their right.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Living in NZ at the minute, a report from 2018 said only 27% of transactions made here are cash. I've been here since late 2018 and I'm surprised it's even that high. I feel like almost all people I see alongside me making transactions in shops, cafes, pubs etc are contactless or chip & PIN. Everywhere takes debit cards and cash is becoming a rarity.

That said, using card on a night on the beer is a bad idea, I prefer the idea of taking cash out and using it over the course of the night, gives you some idea of what you've spent, if nothing else.

BillyBiggs

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

Living in NZ at the minute, a report from 2018 said only 27% of transactions made here are cash. I've been here since late 2018 and I'm surprised it's even that high. I feel like almost all people I see alongside me making transactions in shops, cafes, pubs etc are contactless or chip & PIN. Everywhere takes debit cards and cash is becoming a rarity.

That said, using card on a night on the beer is a bad idea, I prefer the idea of taking cash out and using it over the course of the night, gives you some idea of what you've spent, if nothing else.

Bar workers can try and con you out of money when they think ur after a few. Happened me at least 4 times, when handing over a €50 note.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

BillyBiggs wrote: »

Bar workers can try and con you out of money when they think ur after a few. Happened me at least 4 times, when handing over a €50 note.

That's very true, although to be fair, the same thing has happened to me in Ireland.

coinop

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

Living in NZ at the minute, a report from 2018 said only 27% of transactions made here are cash. I've been here since late 2018 and I'm surprised it's even that high. I feel like almost all people I see alongside me making transactions in shops, cafes, pubs etc are contactless or chip & PIN. Everywhere takes debit cards and cash is becoming a rarity.

That said, using card on a night on the beer is a bad idea, I prefer the idea of taking cash out and using it over the course of the night, gives you some idea of what you've spent, if nothing else.

Ditto in Scandinavia, China, Canada among many others. Even in a "primitive backwater" like Kenya, 73% of Kenyans use a mobile money account. For all my travels across the world, I can't remember the last time I needed to take out the local currency. Probably a few dollar bills for tipping in the States. Everything goes on the credit card, accepted and respected worldwide. Irish people clinging onto cash reminds me of people in the cinema in the 1920s, jumping out of their seats in fear as they saw the train accelerating towards the screen.

BillyBiggs

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

That's very true, although to be fair, the same thing has happened to me in Ireland.

My example is an Irish example.

Dodge

BillyBiggs wrote: »

Speaking of cash and Revolut, try taking money out of your Revolut at A.T.M.s on a semi regular basis and you’ll get hit with horrendous fees.

I think anyone using revolut to withdraw cash on a regular basis here probably doesn’t understand the point of it

Onshuh

I wouldn't want a cashless society where banks and other large companies know everything I purchase. Also, in a weird way, I like the novelty of using a different currency when I'm abroad.