The current trend of removing cash is a serious mistake

El Tarangu

Onshuh wrote: »

. Also, in a weird way, I like the novelty of using a different currency when I'm abroad.

Interesting take (and not one I entirely disagree with). The flip-side of that is if you go to a country with where it's several thousand of x to a euro, it's very cumbersome, very easy to get confused, and presumably easier to get grifted.

In Myanmar, if you took out €100 worth of cash, you would get a roll of money thick enough to choke a horse.

biko

The bank has every single purchase you do in cleartext. And they want to sell it.
Your purchases of beer and smokes can be sold to your health insurer who can then justify hiking your premium.

The bank can increase their fee on your card at any time, and you have no alternative other than another bank.

If you slip into bad credit you might not get a credit card and you're ****ed.

Marginalised people without plastic cards gets shut out of the economy.

Not everyone has a smartphone/wants one.

biko

2013
https://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/more-companies-put-data-about-their-customers-on-sale-8679852.html
Barclays is the latest big name to tell its millions of customers that it intends to start selling information about the transactions on their accounts.

The bank has written to customers explaining that the information will be used to compile reports on consumer-spending patterns, and sold on to third parties such as other companies and government departments.

Barclays has insisted that “these are statistical reports only – very high level, aggregated and anonymised data about overall trends – not leads for sales or marketing”.

While this may well be true, it is still a concern that the bank can do so without consent from its customers.

biko

biko wrote: »

.........Your purchases of beer and smokes can be sold to your health insurer who can then justify hiking your premium..........

Sounds reasonable ......... although if I buy €50 worth of beer and smokes in supervalu on my credit card it's not even detailed on my statment what I actually bought so I'm not at all sure how my heath insurer will be any the wiser.

biko wrote: »

.......The bank can increase their fee on your card at any time, and you have no alternative other than another bank.......

We'll see how that goes ........... credit cards have no transaction fees currently

biko wrote: »

.......If you slip into bad credit you might not get a credit card and you're ****ed.......

Plenty of folk with bad credit histories with credit cards, they are nice pocket liners for banks

biko wrote: »

.......Marginalised people without plastic cards gets shut out of the economy.

Not everyone has a smartphone/wants one.

Sounds rather hysterical.

Dodge

biko wrote: »

Marginalised people without plastic cards gets shut out of the economy.

99% of people here have and use a card. Within 5-10 years it will be 100%

Again, I'm not suggesting we will ever be cash free but it's simply hysterical to suggest there are hordes of people who don't use a debit card here. Even if all they do is withdraw cash from an atm...

makeorbrake

makeorbrake wrote: »

.............

Well, that means that you wish to put full faith in the state at all times - on the assumption that they will always do the right thing. That's not something I wish to do - but everyone takes their own view on that. Certainly, things are more stable in Ireland than many other places but the past is not indicative of the future. There are many examples abroad where you certainly can't and shouldn't trust the state.................

In the context of them pressing a button and seizing all my assets etc I'd trust them 100% not to do that. If it happens having 5% of my net worth in bitcoin won't really change much if anything

Geuze

biko wrote: »

The bank has every single purchase you do in cleartext. And they want to sell it.
Your purchases of beer and smokes can be sold to your health insurer who can then justify hiking your premium.

Impossible in Ireland, as we have community-rating in health insurance.

The J Stands for Jay

Geuze wrote: »

Impossible in Ireland, as we have community-rating in health insurance.

And the banks don't know what we've bought, just how much we've spent and where (unless you're shopping in specialist/niche shops)

Kilboor

Genuinely love the novelty and history behind cash. It's a part of a country's culture in my opinion and nothing feels better than being handed cash for work.

I'm also someone who is somewhat sympathetic to tradesmen dealing in cash as well as other people doing odd jobs. The hustle is a fun part of life and to make us all straight laced within the lines following the rules is a bit well.... boring.

That all said I understand that the times are a changin' and I can see the many advantages of a cashless society. Pinging me 50 quid will never feel the same as being handed a crisp 50 though.

US2

How would I buy second hand items off done deal or Facebook with no cash? How would I buy a bag of weed? Go to West clare and Internet reception is so bad you can't even check how much is in your bank account.

Feisar

Dodge wrote: »

99% of people here have and use a card. Within 5-10 years it will be 100%

Again, I'm not suggesting we will ever be cash free but it's simply hysterical to suggest there are hordes of people who don't use a debit card here. Even if all they do is withdraw cash from an atm...

Not 100%, my Dad will never get one. He goes into the bank and spews out his account number to get money. For my 21st we went into town to get a load of drink for everyone and proceeds to pull out a cheque book. Couldn't understand why they wouldn't take it off him.

DavyD_83

Augeo wrote: »

Sounds reasonable ......... although if I buy €50 worth of beer and smokes in supervalu on my credit card it's not even detailed on my statment what I actually bought so I'm not at all sure how my heath insurer will be any the wiser.
.

Locality cards help fill in this data gap nicely.
But people somehow think they're only there to ensure customers get the best bargains :rolleyes:

I don't care myself, and have given up trying to pretend info about my daily life is even worth protecting at this stage. I'm not that interesting and don't have much to hide.

Personally, I think a reduction in the amount of cash used makes a lot of sense; presumably printing, storing, recycling cash has huge costs attached assist from anything else.
People will start wanting to be able to post cash to companies to pay for their online purchases now to 'protect their freedom'.

Probably the same ppl are using WhatsApp, Facebook, Instagram etc and using Google maps, while w complaining about the Covid app.

DavyD_83

DavyD_83 wrote: »

Locality cards help fill in this data gap nicely................

But the shop has the loyalty card data
Will the bank pay them for it?

The J Stands for Jay

Kilboor wrote: »

Genuinely love the novelty and history behind cash. It's a part of a country's culture in my opinion and nothing feels better than being handed cash for work.

I'm also someone who is somewhat sympathetic to tradesmen dealing in cash as well as other people doing odd jobs. The hustle is a fun part of life and to make us all straight laced within the lines following the rules is a bit well.... boring.

That all said I understand that the times are a changin' and I can see the many advantages of a cashless society. Pinging me 50 quid will never feel the same as being handed a crisp 50 though.

I find the Euro notes pretty bland TBH, bit o know what you're saying. Euro coins having different national designs is cool, but I wish we'd gone for the bull, salmon etc. instead of the Harp.

kenmm

The general ignorance around just goes to show how easy it will be for some of this stuff (selling of transaction data, better ranking ("credit scoring") of people and the consequences this will have) to be implemented.

Just because something isn't quite legal now, doesn't say it wont change very soon. And once we are all pretty much standardised onto one system (i.e. electronic payments) - the easier it will continue to be.

This isn't a "big brother is watching" paranoia/ conspiracy theory - its much simpler than that - there is money to be made in the data, and that's too big an incentive for things not to change.

Feel free to set a calendar reminder for some time in the not-too-distant future (4/5 years?) and see where we are then.

TheCitizen

No income tax, no VAT
No money back, no guarantee
Black or white, rich or poor
We’ll cut prices at a stroke
God bless Hooky Street
Viva Hooky Street
Long live Hooky Street
C’est magnifique Hooky Street

makeorbrake

Augeo wrote: »

In the context of them pressing a button and seizing all my assets etc I'd trust them 100% not to do that.

.
In the Irish context, its interesting the false sense of security that has been developed as a consequence of relative stability over recent history. That's not the case in many parts of the world. Past performance is not an indication of the future. Look at the way 2020 is panning out. Who saw that coming.

What would you have done that fateful morning had Linehan rolled out of the other side of the bed and given your savings a short back n sides? Later Noonan swiped our pensions because Irish people can't see any further ahead that the ends of their noses...and of course because he could. Try doing that with a decentralised currency and they can go fish.

Augeo wrote: »

If it happens having 5% of my net worth in bitcoin won't really change much if anything

5% net worth in bitcoin is something i suggest as a decent hedge against sovereign currencies. Personally I exceed that by a long way. If there are signs showing that the sovereign currency is going to run aground, then it would be wise to up that figure. If you just want control of your wealth but don't want exposure to bitcoin volatility, you can put funds in a USD stablecoin - again, that's not going to be confiscatable.

makeorbrake

makeorbrake wrote: »

.
In the Irish context, its interesting the false sense of security that has been developed as a consequence of relative stability over recent history. That's not the case in many parts of the world. ...

False sense of security in your view

makeorbrake wrote: »

..........What would you have done that fateful morning had Linehan rolled out of the other side of the bed and given your savings a short back n sides? Later Noonan swiped our pensions because Irish people can't see any further ahead that the ends of their noses...and of course because he could. Try doing that with a decentralised currency and they can go fish...

A tiny percentage of unvested pension funds were taken. It's a drop in the ocean compared to the losses seen in decentralised currency values in recent years which folk are trying to mitigate by spieling on about gold etc etc.

makeorbrake wrote: »

.5% net worth in bitcoin is something i suggest as a decent hedge against sovereign currencies. Personally I exceed that by a long way. If there are signs showing that the sovereign currency is going to run aground, then it would be wise to up that figure. If you just want control of your wealth but don't want exposure to bitcoin volatility, you can put funds in a USD stablecoin - again, that's not going to be confiscatable.

Each to their own, I don't share any of your fears so none of your suggestions are any way appealing.

GazzaL

Cash is king.

The J Stands for Jay

GazzaL wrote: »

Cash is king.

You mean "Cash & cash equivalents".

TheCitizen

kenmm wrote: »

The general ignorance around just goes to show how easy it will be for some of this stuff (selling of transaction data, better ranking ("credit scoring") of people and the consequences this will have) to be implemented.

Just because something isn't quite legal now, doesn't say it wont change very soon. And once we are all pretty much standardised onto one system (i.e. electronic payments) - the easier it will continue to be.

This isn't a "big brother is watching" paranoia/ conspiracy theory - its much simpler than that - there is money to be made in the data, and that's too big an incentive for things not to change.

Feel free to set a calendar reminder for some time in the not-too-distant future (4/5 years?) and see where we are then.

I think you have mades some fair points. There was a time I used to work in jobs where it was cash only and some jobs don't pay if there's not a good bit of cash involved. Retail sector, taxis, tips for restaurant staff etc.. I can see the argument where moving away from cash takes money out of the punters pocket and gives it to the big companies that control data etc.

makeorbrake

Augeo wrote: »

False sense of security in your view

Not really. Sovereign currencies fail all the time. Governments and Central Banks screw up all the time. At any given time, we have a list of examples of mismanaged sovereign currencies. So - it's not just my opinion. Not having experienced anything other than relative stability makes people complacent. And yet, I say that but we had two occasions in recent history when we all came close to losing a shed load of our wealth;
- Linehan coming within a hares breath of giving all our savings a short back n sides.
- The Euro coming close to collapse circa 2010 - which could have resulted in us all waking up to a devalued punt nua one fine morning.

And as I write this, right now we are all living through this ECB (and Fed...and every other central bank) - 'magic money' experiment, together with negative interest rates. We've never been here before in terms of the sheer scale of the money printing....lets see where this all leads. Speculation has re-emerged following the onset of covid about the prospects of the Euro's survival. Of course it might pull through on both counts but lets not assume that those are foregone conclusions.

Augeo wrote: »

A tiny percentage of unvested pension funds were taken.

I disagree that it wasn't significant and it's not the point anyway. If someone held a knife to your throat and asked you for your wallet - and then proceeded to take out €20 and leave you with the rest, is that then ok? How is it any different. It's theft.

Augeo wrote: »

It's a drop in the ocean compared to the losses seen in decentralised currency values in recent years

See above. That's in no way a reasonable comparison to begin with. In the first example, someone steals from you and in the second example someone speculates on a risky asset. In the former example, you don't have a choice - you very much do with the latter.

Seeing as you bring it up though, I'll address it. Naysayers focus in on one cherry picked narrative. Sure, in speculation, there are winners and losers. That's the nature of speculation. However, don't for a second suggest that one type of speculation is worse than another. How about the guys that got caught recently with a negative (-) $37/barrel on oil futures? What about stonks going in the toilet in March? How about the speculation on FX? How is it any different?

Augeo wrote: »

which folk are trying to mitigate by spieling on about gold etc etc.

So you're alluding to my mention of the volatility of gold in the 70s? Firstly, I'm not trying to 'mitigate' anything. I have no losses to 'mitigate' - quite the opposite. Notwithstanding that, even if I had, it isn't a mitigation. It's unequivocal that gold was very volatile in the 70s and that it put in higher lows throughout that decade. Go back and check it out. There's no 'mitigation'. That's solid fact.

Augeo wrote: »

Each to their own, I don't share any of your fears so none of your suggestions are any way appealing.

That's perfectly fine. Do what you're most comfortable with.

DavyD_83

Augeo wrote: »

But the shop has the loyalty card data
Will the bank pay them for it?

Probably not, but Google or any other number of data mining companies who are also buying the bank's data might.
The point is that once all of the data exists it just needs somebody with the will and computing power to combine it. But most days is really just used to sell is stuff at the moment rather than for other nefarious purposes.

makeorbrake

makeorbrake wrote: »

.......

So you're alluding to my mention of the volatility of gold in the 70s? Firstly, I'm not trying to 'mitigate' anything. I have no losses to 'mitigate' - quite the opposite. Notwithstanding that, even if I had, it isn't a mitigation. It's unequivocal that gold was very volatile in the 70s and that it put in higher lows throughout that decade. Go back and check it out. There's no 'mitigation'. That's solid fact.


That's perfectly fine. Do what you're most comfortable with.

No losses.... It's amazing the amount of crypto heads claim that.

In the spirit of past performance etc what happened gold has sfa to do with cryto.

makeorbrake

Augeo wrote: »

No losses.... It's amazing the amount of crypto heads claim that.

I notice that you haven't disagreed that speculation exists in many markets - and that there are people that end up on both sides of that speculation. That you are suggesting im lying - i don't care what you think.I'd imagine bad news doesn't get revealed as quickly as good news but that's not specific to crypto. But no matter - there are those on either side of it - that doesn't take away from my rationale in my post above.

Augeo wrote: »

In the spirit of past performance etc what happened gold has sfa to do with cryto.

Those better placed disagree with you.

And maybe somehow Paul Tudor Jones doesn't carry enough weight for you. Here's a Forbes piece that makes the very same point.

KyussB

Libertarian ignores glaring conflicts of interest in cited sources shocker.

makeorbrake

KyussB wrote: »

Libertarian ignores glaring conflicts of interest in cited sources shocker.

Ah, I see...I didn't cite the 'right' sources. Foolish me. That aside, that's Paul Tudor Jones take on it - backed up with data. Or maybe the data has a conflict of interest too?...who knows.
Gold made a 2,300% gain in the 1970s but not without major corrections along the way.

I get paid in cash and deal almost entirely in cash nfor day to day stuff. Would never like for it to be all digital.

makeorbrake

makeorbrake wrote: »

I notice that you haven't disagreed that speculation exists in many markets - and that there are people that end up on both sides of that speculation. That you are suggesting im lying - i don't care what you think.I'd imagine bad news doesn't get revealed as quickly as good news but that's not specific to crypto. But no matter - there are those on either side of it - that doesn't take away from my rationale in my post above.

I'm not suggesting you're lying at all, I repeat my point..... "No losses.... It's amazing the amount of crypto heads claim that" .......... that's a general comment, but with the loss crypto suffered there must have been a huge amount of losers.

.........

makeorbrake wrote: »

And maybe somehow Paul Tudor Jones doesn't carry enough weight for you. Here's a Forbes piece that makes the very same point.

I'm sure there are lots of billionaires out there who reckon cyrpto currencies aren't a valid investment option

You can find a link to support most viewpoints.

We'll have to wait it out but your fear of / expectation of Sovereign currencies failing all the time wrt the average Joe in Ireland are pie in the toilet stuff IMO.

makeorbrake

"In the spirit of past performance etc what happened gold has sfa to do with cryto"

makeorbrake wrote: »

..............


Those better placed disagree with you.

And maybe somehow Paul Tudor Jones doesn't carry enough weight for you. Here's a Forbes piece that makes the very same point.

makeorbrake wrote: »

.......................
Gold made a 2,300% gain in the 1970s but not without major corrections along the way.

Gold has an intrinsic value, it's a precious metal. Bitcoin has SFA intrinsic value despite the amount of bitcoin being fixed (supposedly) ......... new cryptocurrencies are a regular occurrence so whatever bitcoin can/will do I imagine some other coin can do similar.