The current trend of removing cash is a serious mistake

Bubbaclaus

neutral guy wrote: »

The first at all I waste about 50 euros per year feeding bank cashless system because I pay fees
Every single year I getting letter from bank were they asking me about were and what I have ! If I will not answer them questions they as they say Will Close My bank account !
I got phone call one day and bank representative was asking me how much money I have and were I keep them !!! Any property abroad,any accounts in other banks !?
Yes,for sure,if you always have not enough money for food because you have plenty loans then you have to be cashless ! Because using Visa or Mastercard you always can take loan ! And waste your 2-3 per cent of your money for interest !

Either you completely misinterpreted the call from your bank, or else it wasnt your bank you were talking to.

completedit

The other night. Out with friends. Say I'll take the bull on Revolut. Everyone transfers me their money. All above board. Turns out the bar charged me for the 50 euro that had already been paid for by a couple at the table who paid separately. Cash is king

Stark

Surely you need to check the bill regardless of whether you're paying by cash or card?

neutral guy

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Either you completely misinterpreted the call from your bank, or else it wasnt your bank you were talking to.

It was my bank ! And representative of this banks was asking me questions trying bring me to the bank were other bank representative was trying sell me bank products because I have good account.The good account they call accounts which does not have loans.I am 24/7 under bank control because I have piece of plastic with them logo on it.

neutral guy

The cashless world is modern slavery
Bank giving loan/credit card is buying the slave
Slave owner (bank) does not have worry about job for slave
Slave will find job him self to bring money to the bank
Slave owner ( bank ) does not have worry about roof above slave head
Slave will get roof him self
Slave owner ( bank ) does not have to worry about slave health
Slave will worry about him health him self
Slave owner ( bank ) does not have to worry about guards which will keep eye on slave
Slave honestly will bring money to the bank at day which bank will tel him
Keep going be cashless guys ! I am not gonna be a slave !

Wanderer78

neutral guy wrote: »

The cashless world is modern slavery
Bank giving loan/credit card is buying the slave
Slave owner (bank) does not have worry about job for slave
Slave will find job him self to bring money to the bank
Slave owner ( bank ) does not have worry about roof above slave head
Slave will get roof him self
Slave owner ( bank ) does not have to worry about slave health
Slave will worry about him health him self
Slave owner ( bank ) does not have to worry about guards which will keep eye on slave
Slave honestly will bring money to the bank at day which bank will tel him
Keep going be cashless guys ! I am not gonna be a slave !

it could be argued that money in all its forms is a form of slavery, in particular in its most predominant form, i.e. credit/debt

makeorbrake

i_surge wrote: »

I know it serves those functions, but we both know that is in no way the primary motivation for mining

Eh, no. That's nonsense. At least to single it out on that basis is nonsense. Are you a communist? Do you expect people to go to these sort of lengths and not turn a profit? WHO does that?

Do you realise just how difficult that business is? Lone gone are the days of some geek confirming transactions via some spare pc or laptop. These are professional concerns investing millions. I gave you the example of one back to the tune of $50 million by Paypal founder, Peter Theil - with the overall project costing $200 million. Many have gotten it wrong and been wiped out.

They provide a service and they are compensated for that service. It's no more the 'primary motivation' than it's the 'primary motivation' for anyone that establishes a business. You do know that the objective of a business is to make a profit and failure to do so is likely to lead to that business failing?

i_surge wrote: »

Absolutely ****ing madness in other words and easily much worse than the rival traditional financial services on a kWh/earning basis. Crazy!!!

A couple of things...
Firstly it's worse based on what? Your word? You made the big fat claim, now prove it.
Secondly, what concern is it of yours. It's none of your business - unless you're considering establishing a bitcoin mining enterprise.
Thirdly, if - as has been established - that activity is largely run on excess power or renewable power, it doesn't impact anyone negatively - not you - and not the environment. Quite the opposite as it provides every citizen with access to the most secure open financial network on the planet.

i_surge

makeorbrake wrote: »

Eh, no. That's nonsense. At least to single it out on that basis is nonsense. Are you a communist? Do you expect people to go to these sort of lengths and not turn a profit? WHO does that?

Do you realise just how difficult that business is? Lone gone are the days of some geek confirming transactions via some spare pc or laptop. These are professional concerns investing millions. I gave you the example of one back to the tune of $50 million by Paypal founder, Peter Theil - with the overall project costing $200 million. Many have gotten it wrong and been wiped out.

They provide a service and they are compensated for that service. It's no more the 'primary motivation' than it's the 'primary motivation' for anyone that establishes a business. You do know that the objective of a business is to make a profit and failure to do so is likely to lead to that business failing?



A couple of things...
Firstly it's worse based on what? Your word? You made the big fat claim, now prove it.
Secondly, what concern is it of yours. It's none of your business - unless you're considering establishing a bitcoin mining enterprise.
Thirdly, if - as has been established - that activity is largely run on excess power or renewable power, it doesn't impact anyone negatively - not you - and not the environment. Quite the opposite as it provides every citizen with access to the most secure open financial network on the planet.

If it is being done at scale then it is even worse. Why is it not my business?! I'm a citizen of this planet and this is a monumental waste of resources, opportunity and human potential.

Bubbaclaus

neutral guy wrote: »

The cashless world is modern slavery
Bank giving loan/credit card is buying the slave
Slave owner (bank) does not have worry about job for slave
Slave will find job him self to bring money to the bank
Slave owner ( bank ) does not have worry about roof above slave head
Slave will get roof him self
Slave owner ( bank ) does not have to worry about slave health
Slave will worry about him health him self
Slave owner ( bank ) does not have to worry about guards which will keep eye on slave
Slave honestly will bring money to the bank at day which bank will tel him
Keep going be cashless guys ! I am not gonna be a slave !

You seem a hit unhinged to be honest. What's this slave talk about?

i_surge

Provide a service my hole...when you look at the scale of it, weigh the pros and cons and realise that the vast majority of inhabitants on this earth derive no benefit from the existence of ****coin it is a huge diservice to humanity.

I am all for profitable businesses providing services but this is a disgusting waste that you are trying to wrap in some blanket of fake virtue. Saddest part is we all know it is not that likely to survive the next 10 to 20 years. All for nothing

makeorbrake

i_surge wrote: »

If it is being done at scale then it is even worse.

You make no sense! What earthly difference does it make to you? It doesn't preclude someone from doing so on a smaller basis but with the logistics and body of work involved, it probably doesn't make any sense. But what of it? What conceivable issue can you have with that?

i_surge wrote: »

Why is it not my business?!

What sort of retarded nonsense is this? If you want to be involved in that business, you can do so. Have at it.

i_surge wrote: »

I'm a citizen of this planet and this is a monumental waste of resources, opportunity and human potential.

Respectfully, take a run and jump. It's none of your business. You're not in charge here!

i_surge wrote: »

Provide a service my hole

Now you're contradicting yourself. You said that it served a function and now you're saying it doesn't. More nonsense.
(and of course it provides a service and serves a purpose. That you don't like that purpose is your own problem. Deal with it.

i_surge wrote: »

it is a huge diservice to humanity.

It is a service to society as it makes the bitcoin network available to every man, woman and child on the planet.

i_surge wrote: »

I am all for profitable businesses providing services but this is a disgusting waste that you are trying to wrap in some blanket of fake virtue. Saddest part is we all know it is not that likely to survive the next 10 to 20 years. All for nothing

These are your opinions - and that's all they are. They're not fact! I disagree with what you state here completely (as in you don't have a notion what you're talking about).

Wanderer78

Bubbaclaus wrote:

You seem a hit unhinged to be honest. What's this slave talk about?

Its clearly obvious we have become enslaved by debt peonage

i_surge

makeorbrake wrote: »

You make no sense! What earthly difference does it make to you? It doesn't preclude someone from doing so on a smaller basis but with the logistics and body of work involved, it probably doesn't make any sense. But what of it? What conceivable issue can you have with that?


What sort of retarded nonsense is this? If you want to be involved in that business, you can do so. Have at it.


Respectfully, take a run and jump. It's none of your business. You're not in charge here!


Now you're contradicting yourself. You said that it served a function and now you're saying it doesn't. More nonsense.
(and of course it provides a service and serves a purpose. That you don't like that purpose is your own problem. Deal with it.



It is a service to society as it makes the bitcoin network available to every man, woman and child on the planet.


These are your opinions - and that's all they are. They're not fact! I disagree with what you state here completely (as in you don't have a notion what you're talking about).

Yes or no answer....is it right to consume the energy to manufacture 50+ cars to barely provide a wage for a single person?

makeorbrake

i_surge wrote: »

Yes or no answer....is it right to consume the energy to manufacture 50+ cars to barely provide a wage for a single person?

If I were to use surplus power in a power station (of which there is a shed tonne wasted every day), flared gas on an oil field (of which there is a shed tonne wasted every day), surplus power from the general network (of which there is a shed tonne wasted every day) surplus power from hydro (of which there is a shed tonne wasted every day), surplus power from wind (of which there is a shed tonne wasted every day) or surplus power from solar (of which there is a shed tonne wasted every day).....to power bitcoin mining - which in turn provides the necessary security for a global financial network that everyone on the planet has access to - then that's a social good.

If I were to use my own capital and go out into the back of beyond and build a renewable facility (wind/solar/hydro, etc.) to power a bitcoin mining farm - which in turn provides the necessary security for a global financial network that everyone on the planet has access to - then that's a social good.


Those circumstances make a mockery of your feigned outrage.

Overheal

makeorbrake wrote: »

If I were to use surplus power in a power station (of which there is a shed tonne wasted every day), flared gas on an oil field (of which there is a shed tonne wasted every day), surplus power from the general network (of which there is a shed tonne wasted every day) surplus power from hydro (of which there is a shed tonne wasted every day), surplus power from wind (of which there is a shed tonne wasted every day) or surplus power from solar (of which there is a shed tonne wasted every day).....to power bitcoin mining - which in turn provides the necessary security for a global financial network that everyone on the planet has access to - then that's a social good.

If I were to use my own capital and go out into the back of beyond and build a renewable facility (wind/solar/hydro, etc.) to power a bitcoin mining farm - which in turn provides the necessary security for a global financial network that everyone on the planet has access to - then that's a social good.


Those circumstances make a mockery of your feigned outrage.

62,000,000,000 Watt Hours and 22,000,000 tons of CO2 per year is not just a bit of power off the top. That's more energy used than the entire country of Switzerland and about 0.3% of global power use. That's before factoring-in the manufacture of bitcoin hardware, the industry having far outstripped the ability of simply using upcycled graphics cards.

makeorbrake

Overheal wrote: »

62,000,000,000 Watt Hours and 22,000,000 tons of CO2 per year is not just a bit of power off the top. That's more energy used than the entire country of Switzerland and about 0.3% of global power use. That's before factoring-in the manufacture of bitcoin hardware, the industry having far outstripped the ability of simply using upcycled graphics cards.

And again, if the majority of that energy is either excess energy (that nobody can make use of) or renewable energy that's not available for general use, then what's the harm?

It goes towards providing the best of network security there is. It also provides for intrinsic value by turning bitcoin into the energy standard that Henry Ford had proposed way back when.



The bitcoin network is actually making good use of wasted energy and driving innovation in green energy.

Overheal

makeorbrake wrote: »

And again, if the majority of that energy is either excess energy (that nobody can make use of) or renewable energy that's not available for general use, then what's the harm?

It goes towards providing the best of network security there is.

That's a big if. Miners flock to the cheapest energy source.

https://www.vox.com/2019/6/18/18642645/bitcoin-energy-price-renewable-china

makeorbrake

Overheal wrote: »

Miners flock to the cheapest energy source.

Precisely. If there's green energy available, miners will be the energy consumers of last resort. If there is another consumer, they will be paying a higher price.

Overheal

makeorbrake wrote: »

Precisely. If there's green energy available, miners will be the energy consumers of last resort. If there is another consumer, they will be paying a higher price.

Which still invariably drives up the cost of the energy they consume and drive demand for ever more production of energy.

makeorbrake

Overheal wrote: »

Which still invariably drives up the cost of the energy they consume and drive demand for ever more production of energy.

If there's no other customer for that energy, how is it driving up the price?

Overheal

makeorbrake wrote: »

If there's no other customer for that energy, how is it driving up the price?

You are only assuming there is no other customer; demand always drives supply, and price. Increased demand begets increased price.

makeorbrake

Overheal wrote: »

You are only assuming there is no other customer; demand always drives supply, and price. Increased demand begets increased price.

No. I'm saying that if there is another buyer, bitcoin miners are not going to be interested. They can't get involved in bidding up. This thing is incredibly sensitive on price. In the example we're talking about, it's where there's renewable that may still be available to domestic or other industrial customers. They have to compete with the guys that are using totally stranded power - which is away from population centres entirely (i.e. there's simply no user available for that energy). They're using the cheapest energy that can be found on the planet. There will be no bidding with anyone else. They're users of last resort.

i_surge

It takes a special kind of person to buy that stranded power argument. Totally bogus.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed

If you can harness it for this, you can harness it for something more useful. It is a huge quantity and it is sad to see people with the talent to set these things up doing such a selfish wasteful thing. More opportunity cost.

The secure network thing is bull**** and only benefits the users of the pyramid scheme, not society..maybe in principle but in practice exchanges are dodgy, you can't cash out easily, they have been hacked and the area is dominated by crooks and algorithms all working to part you from your saving. A public service investment vehicle and emancipating technology it is not.

The knowledge is useful to society but it is not furthered by pissing away energy for ones and zeros that may well collapse in value.

Question...what happens the network if the price makes mining totally unsustainable?

i_surge

Is there a map of all these totally inaccessible places that only the bravest miners have ventured to?

The whole thing sounds like cherry picking horse****...i would guess there is a very mixed spread of where mining actually happens.

i_surge

i_surge wrote: »

Is there a map of all these totally inaccessible places that only the bravest miners have ventured to?

The whole things sounds like cherry picking horse****...i would guess there is a very mixed spread of where mining actually happens.

Answering my own question

"Depending on the energy source, researchers estimate that crypto-mining can produce 3-15 million tons of global carbon emissions.[17] China is one of the world’s largest producer, and consumer, of coal energy with mines in the Xinjiang and Inner Mongolian provinces heavily reliant on coal energy sources to provide crypto-mining companies with cheap energy prices. Coal energy sources offer prices up to 30% cheaper than the average energy consumption prices for industrial firms.[18] However, when compared to the amount generated by renewable energy sources in Canada, any cryptocurrency mined in China would generate four times the amount of CO2 emissions"

Ignorance was bliss, the whole thing is much worse than i imagined. The energy consumption of the island of Ireland ffs! We create a huge multiple of that in revenue while feeding, heating and entertaining a nation at the same time for the same usage. We need to start lobbying governments to shut this **** down. Price it out of existence and start again with better tech.

"By the end of 2018, Bitcoin mining farms were projected to consume 0.05% of the world’s energy.[1] These energy consumption levels superseded, or were equivalent to the net power consumption of entire nations such as Ireland (3.1 gigawatts) and Austria (8.2 gigawatts)"

https://jsis.washington.edu/news/the-political-geography-and-environmental-impacts-of-cryptocurrency-mining

As i thought, the whole infrastructue collapses if the coin price gets uneconomic.

makeorbrake

i_surge wrote: »

If you can harness it for this, you can harness it for something more useful. It is a huge quantity and it is sad to see people with the talent to set these things up doing such a selfish wasteful thing. More opportunity cost.

I've told you many times, it's none of your business. It's not 'selfish' and if it utilizes energy that would otherwise go unused, it's not wasteful.

i_surge wrote: »

More opportunity cost.

It's not your 'opportunity cost' to preside over.

i_surge wrote: »

The secure network thing is bull****

You go round in circles. Here you go once more trying to claim that it has no function. I don't give a toss that you're diametrically opposed to bitcoin. That's your problem. It's a verified fact that bitcoin mining secures the network and facilitates confirmation of transactions.

i_surge wrote: »

only benefits the users of the pyramid scheme

You can lie all you want. It makes no difference. To have a pyramid scheme, there needs to be a central group that set up the scheme and who will benefit by it. Where are they? And you're telling me that they've been working on this for 11 years? GTF outta here.

i_surge wrote: »

not society.

It's a public blockchain that anyone can access.

i_surge wrote: »

in practice exchanges are dodgy,

What has that got to do with anything? Exchanges are becoming increasingly professional year on year. Other than that, you don't have to store your crypto on an exchange.

i_surge wrote: »

you can't cash out easily

Yes, you can.

i_surge wrote: »

they have been hacked

Banks get robbed all the time. Banks get hacked all the time. The visa network has been taken offline. Many bank networks have been taken offline. Guess what has never been taken offline? The bitcoin blockchain network.

i_surge wrote: »

the area is dominated by crooks

The sector is becoming increasingly professional year on year. If it's crooks you're looking for, you'll find them in the conventional banking system.

i_surge wrote: »

algorithms all working to part you from your saving.

What sort of moronic nonsense is this! You're a grown adult. The only one that will part you from your money is you. Grow up.

i_surge wrote: »

A public service investment vehicle and emancipating technology it is not.

I disagree entirely.

i_surge wrote: »

The knowledge is useful to society but it is not furthered by pissing away energy for ones and zeros that may well collapse in value.

Again, if you have your head firmly lodged up your backside, I can't help you with your problem. The purpose and need for bitcoin mining has been explained ad nauseum to you.

i_surge wrote: »

Question...what happens the network if the price makes mining totally unsustainable?

It's been running perfectly fine for the past 11 years!

i_surge wrote: »

Is there a map of all these totally inaccessible places that only the bravest miners have ventured to?
The whole things sounds like cherry picking horse****...i would guess there is a very mixed spread of where mining actually happens.

You've been given details on a long list of renewable mining projects. If you want to prove otherwise, go out and do it. I'm not going running round for the likes of you.

i_surge

Oh yeah the coal that would otherwise go to waste and pollution is nobodies business but the polluter. Nice world view.

You were trying to convince us it was lean and green yesterday.

And crucially 100k is guaranteed by the bank and if they get robbed the customer doesn't fit the bill. This is real schoolyard territory you have brought the discussion into...then come the personal insults when there is no rational argument. Lovely

makeorbrake

i_surge wrote: »

Oh yeah the coal that would otherwise go to waste and pollution is nobodies business but the polluter. Nice world view.
You were trying to convince us it was lean and green yesterday.

And nothing has changed since you posted that blurb. The data I cited indicated approx. 75% renewables. Not 100%.
Secondly, what you posted is already dated. The move is towards ever more cost effective and efficient renewable energy.

i_surge wrote: »

And crucially 100k is guaranteed by the bank and if they get robbed the customer doesn't fit the bill.

I told you before - you don't have to keep funds and crypto on an exchange. Not doing so minimises the risk considerably. Furthermore, Coinbase and others provide an FDIC guarantee on funds held on account. This is a nascent space that is becoming more and more professional year on year. I don't expect you to give that a seconds thought as you're just looking for an angle to hack it down (but then I don't give a fiddlers what you think).

i_surge wrote: »

This is real schoolyard territory you have brought the discussion into...then come the personal insults

If you are big n bould enough to dish it out, be man enough to take it.

i_surge wrote: »

when there is no rational argument. Lovely

You talk about yourself a lot for sure.

i_surge

The good old web of self supporting half truths to hide a massive lie strategy. Standard from the hard left, surprised to see it here.

For all the multiquotes you completely dodged the meaty difficult parts of my argument, like the sheer scale of power consumption or the pollution from coal or the morality of consuming enough power for a small nation to produce encrypted strings of 1's and 0's and nothing else.

Goodnight

makeorbrake

i_surge wrote: »

The good old web of self supporting half truths to hide a massive lie strategy. Standard from the hard left, surprised to see it here.

The lies are all yours. You've proven nothing.

i_surge wrote: »

For all the multiquotes you completely dodged the meaty difficult parts of my argument, like the sheer scale of power consumption

When you take a moronic approach to the 'discussion' as you have done, there was no getting on to that. How do you explain energy usage to someone who has no appreciation whatsoever of what bitcoin mining does - what it's purpose is. Now that is a waste of energy.

i_surge wrote: »

or the morality of consuming enough power for a small nation to produce encrypted strings of 1's and 0's and nothing else.

I don't give a rats ass what you were determined to believe from the outset and the petty smallmindedness that comes with that.