The current trend of removing cash is a serious mistake

neutral guy

makeorbrake wrote: »

Dude, what's fair got to do with anything!

There are some that would say that you need to pay taxes on ALL of your income. I can see plenty of logic to that - provided the game isn't rigged and ALL taxes/systems are setup to treat ALL citizens equally. This doesn't tend to be the case ..and the degree to which it doesn't varies from one jurisdiction to the next.

That's before we get to a consideration of privacy. And before we get to a consideration of the ability of government to 'turn off' your wealth at the drop of a hat.

Switching back to 'fairness', sovereign money is used because you're forced to use it. Eventually, you'll be forced to use the digital version of sovereign money too - if that's what the powers that be want.

But problem is,the more I pay taxes the less I get for my child education and less health care to keep me moving.
And Yes,the more I will earn the more I will invest to less cashless markets.

Wanderer78

makeorbrake wrote:

That's before we get to a consideration of privacy. And before we get to a consideration of the ability of government to 'turn off' your wealth at the drop of a hat.

It was both public and private sector institutions that turned off the Greek money supply, or turned it down at least

makeorbrake wrote:

Switching back to 'fairness', sovereign money is used because you're forced to use it. Eventually, you'll be forced to use the digital version of sovereign money too - if that's what the powers that be want.

Private sector financial institutions may in fact have greater powers than governments, as we ve recently discovered, as they in fact create the majority of our money supply in the form of credit, so be wary of both entities, their potential pitfalls and potential controls

neutral guy

Guys,any way,we have cashless piece of gold !

Wanderer78

neutral guy wrote:

Guys,any way,we have cashless piece of gold !

Interesting arguments about gold, love some myself, should really look into it

makeorbrake

Wanderer78 wrote: »

It was both public and private sector institutions that turned off the Greek money supply, or turned it down at least

There will be three options available to people going forward in terms of money;

- State/sovereign money
- Private sector money
- decentralised money

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Private sector financial institutions may in fact have greater powers than governments, as we ve recently discovered, as they in fact create the majority of our money supply in the form of credit, so be wary of both entities, their potential pitfalls and potential controls

In that case, see option 3 above.

Guys,any way,we have cashless piece of gold !

Indeed we do - although can be a little difficult to divide up and to move around.

Wanderer78

makeorbrake wrote:

In that case, see option 3 above.

The development of Cryptos is interesting, but I'd agree with those that believe, in its current format, it's actually not money, but in the future, it could be

makeorbrake

Wanderer78 wrote: »

The development of Cryptos is interesting, but I'd agree with those that believe, in its current format, it's actually not money, but in the future, it could be

Time will tell. :-)

Wanderer78

makeorbrake wrote:

Time will tell. :-)

Its an extremely exciting time in regards monetary systems and theory etc

makeorbrake

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Its an extremely exciting time in regards monetary systems and theory etc

On that we can agree - although I'd also add 'scary' depending upon what you happen to be holding. According to Powell earlier in the week, it seems ordinary joe is going to pick up the tab for this shítshow via inflation rather than the more well heeled to pay via increased taxes.

Wanderer78

makeorbrake wrote:

On that we can agree - although I'd also add 'scary' depending upon what you happen to be holding. According to Powell earlier in the week, it seems ordinary joe is going to pick up the tab for this shítshow via inflation rather than the more well heeled to pay via increased taxes.

It ll be interesting to see if inflation turns up at all, as it seems like central banks are struggling to find it, poor things, must be outta their minds with worry

gormdubhgorm

Experience_day wrote: »

I see another thread about shops not taking cash etc and it strikes me as a massive mistake as a society to Let it happen. It is an integral part of maintaining (even at this stage nearly a fiction) of privacy and it's elimination from society will not be a positive development.

Interested to hear other people's opinions..

I suppose I am a bit old fashioned and like a bit of loose cash stored.
But covid19 changed all that.

I would advise you not to move to Sweden OP

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/sweden-cashless-society

But not all are happy very dependent on phone apps and cards

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/11/sweden-cashless-society-is-no-
longer-a-utopia/

Swish it is called is even used when paying for things in open market stalls all that is needed is a phone number

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swish_(payment)

Seems to me that today if people lose thier phone they would be in far more trouble than if they lost thier wallet.

Bubbaclaus

neutral guy wrote: »

I am created ways of incomes which help me be independent from my wage
The last time I am used my bank/credit card in July 14/2020
To be honest I am forgot my PIN
I am do not have days off,I do not see my family,my child,my wife
I do not remember when I last time had sex with my wife
I am starting my day at 6.00 and I finish my day at 22.00
I have about 1K additional extra in cash in wallet per week because I am work hard at 2/3/4 jobs
And now government will make my life cashless trying make me pay taxes
Does it fair ?

You seem confused about how government and the economy work. The government doesnt keep the tax. The tax is collected by the taxpayer (all of us) in order to pay for everything that is provided in society. You are conning your fellow countryman if you don't pay your tax.

Don't even try to pretend there is some evil government taking your money. That is just idiotic.

theballz

I really don’t see how removing cash from society is an issue.

It would lower crime rates because there's no tangible money to steal. There would be less money laundering because there's always a digital paper trail

Less time and costs associated with handling, storing, and depositing paper money. Easier currency exchange while traveling internationally.

Those with the technological ability to take advantage of a cashless society will likely find that it's more convenient. As long as you have your card or phone, you have instantaneous access to all your cash holdings. Convenience isn't the only benefit.

Wanderer78

Bubbaclaus wrote:

Don't even try to pretend there is some evil government taking your money. That is just idiotic.

I'd argue the evil fire sectors are taking far more of people's hard earned money than anything

Wanderer78

theballz wrote:

I really don’t see how removing cash from society is an issue.

But would it give us less control of our money?

theballz

Wanderer78 wrote: »

But would it give us less control of our money?

How exactly? Because you can’t hold it?

We are living in a digital world, it’s not necessary anymore.

theballz

theballz wrote: »

How exactly? Because you can’t hold it?

We are living in a digital world, it’s not necessary anymore.

Of course it is necessary. As soon as we go full blown digital your money can be wiped out at the click of a button.

theballz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Of course it is necessary. As soon as we go full blown digital your money can be wiped out at the click of a button.

Your money is held in banks like it always has been. Its safer for everything to be digitalised.

Tell me of a bank that has been wiped if it’s entire vault by the click of a button?

El Tarangu

neutral guy wrote: »

Does it fair ?

Yes; why should you get to earn an extra €50k tax free, when the rest of us would have to pay €20k-ish in taxes if we earned the same amount?

makeorbrake

theballz wrote: »

Your money is held in banks like it always has been.

A couple of things. When you hand your hard earned money over to a bank, it's not yours. You just have an IOU note on that money.

Secondly, it won't be held by retail banks - it will be held by the state (the central bank) - with retail banks being taken out of the equation. The government has direct access to your funds with the banking intermediary taken out of the equation. That's in the case of central bank digital currency (CBDC) which is where this is headed.

theballz wrote: »

Tell me of a bank that has been wiped if it’s entire vault by the click of a button?

You think banks are currently holding your money in a 'vault'? Aside from the fact that its electronic cash within the banking system, fractional reserve banking is in play.
On the 'click of a button' aspect, if you have a CBDC, the state can freeze or vapourise your money directly. They don't have to get an order for an intermediary to take action.

Wanderer78

theballz wrote:

We are living in a digital world, it’s not necessary anymore.

Have a chat to our Greek friends about what happens when the powers to be virtually shut down your monetary systems over night!

makeorbrake wrote:

You think banks are currently holding your money in a 'vault'? Aside from the fact that its electronic cash within the banking system, fractional reserve banking is in play. On the 'click of a button' aspect, if you have a CBDC, the state can freeze or vapourise your money directly. They don't have to get an order for an intermediary to take action.

There's still debates whether fractional reserve banking even exists anymore, if ever, as most have still not accepted both public and private sector financial institutions create money, I. E. Be wary of both entities, both could (un)intentionally fail, we ve recently experienced a catastrophic failure from within the private sector, let's hope we don't experience one in the public domain, cause God knows what damage that could do, and disturbingly, we have decided it's best to make little or no changes in both sectors since the previous crash, I'm sure it ll end well!

neutral guy

In cashless economy banks will collect information about your spending and will sell it.
In cashless economy we will live under total government
and police control.
No need to tell this not gonna happen.

Wanderer78

neutral guy wrote: »

In cashless economy banks will collect information about your spending and will sell it.
In cashless economy we will live under total government
and police control.
No need to tell this not gonna happen.

this is already occurring at both public and private levels, again, both entities effectively could be, probably are, (un)intentionally using this data against our interests

a cashless society may mean total control or no control at all, from both public and private domains

again, its extremely important not to forget the private sectors abilities in all of this, and potentially, it now has far more power than our political institutions, as we ve recently experienced

zerosugarbuzz

theballz wrote: »

How exactly? Because you can’t hold it?

We are living in a digital world, it’s not necessary anymore.

I’m amazed that anyone would trust the banks so much, given the overwhelming evidence over the past 15 years that they can’t be trusted.

theballz

theballz wrote: »

Your money is held in banks like it always has been. Its safer for everything to be digitalised.

Tell me of a bank that has been wiped if it’s entire vault by the click of a button?

It's kind of hard to wipe a banks vault at the click of a button when the money is physically there. Which is the entire point of this debate. How are you not getting this? The clear danger of a cashless society that does not recognize physical tender is the implementation of a social score system which essentially becomes currency, which would be the next logical conclusion. When I think of countries we should emulate to make our society better, I don't think of China, who are leading the charge in cashless economic systems. It's no coincidence they have started testing social score systems at the same time they are encouraging the reduction of physical cash.

Chiparus

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/03/being-cash-free-puts-us-at-risk-of-attack-swedes-turn-against-cashlessness

From 2 years ago

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

It's kind of hard to wipe a banks vault at the click of a button when the money is physically there. Which is the entire point of this debate. How are you not getting this? The clear danger of a cashless society that does not recognize physical tender is the implementation of a social score system which essentially becomes currency, which would be the next logical conclusion. When I think of countries we should emulate to make our society better, I don't think of China, who are leading the charge in cashless economic systems. It's no coincidence they have started testing social score systems at the same time they are encouraging the reduction of physical cash.

i wouldnt be so sure about this either!

zerosugarbuzz

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

I’m amazed that anyone would trust the banks so much, given the overwhelming evidence over the past 15 years that they can’t be trusted.

Are you genuinely suggesting that banks can't be trusted with our money?

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you genuinely suggesting that banks can't be trusted with our money?

well it ll be interesting to see if bail ins truly take off in the coming financial sector wobble, we might know more then!

zerosugarbuzz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you genuinely suggesting that banks can't be trusted with our money?

100% I am.