The current trend of removing cash is a serious mistake

Wanderer78

theballz wrote: »

So is this about a state collapse or about removing cash from society? You are changing the subject now.

im not changing anything, this subject matter is astonishingly complex, to the point, i dont think any human truly understands it, i certainly dont, and never will, entirely. the previous crash was a catastrophic collapse which involved all fundamental elements of our societies, particularly within our public and private sector financial institutions, and our political institutions, we have decided,the best way forward is to, largely do nothing, this is currently failing, and we are not reacting!

im truly sorry for the loss of your parents business, id imagine its an extremely upsetting experience

theballz

Wanderer78 wrote: »

please be aware, many respected commentators, including central banks, are currently researching these possibilities, events of 2007/8, and the proceeding years, to date, are increasing the likelihood of these possibilities, there is no wide-scale global conspiracy here, we have created highly complex systems and processes, that potentially are conspiring against ourselves, i.e. it is our own creation, there is no conspiracy

You have blamed “complexity” more than once now when asked to explain your point. Which leads me to believe you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and are simply speaking about what could happen, in your own words “likelihood.”

Until you can actually explain your angle here than it is pointless and just words.

As mentioned prior, conspiracy theories for the paranoid. With the greatest respect you seem to be one of them, until you can prove your argument with clear and concise contextual info with example than you are pissing into the wind with anyone who lives in the real world.

“Complexity” and “likelihood” are not examples.

Cheers.

Wanderer78

theballz wrote: »

You have blamed “complexity” more than once now when asked to explain your point. Which leads me to believe you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and are simply speaking about what could happen, in your own words “likelihood.”

Until you can actually explain your angle here than it is pointless and just words.

As mentioned prior, conspiracy theories for the paranoid. With the greatest respect you seem to be one of them, until you can prove your argument with clear and concise contextual info with example than you are pissing into the wind with anyone who lives in the real world.

“Complexity” and “likelihood” are not examples.

Cheers.

id imagine professionals within our critical financial institutions arent into the world of conspiracy, i apologies with my poor explanations, but try engage more, to try understand, its truly fascinating stuff

makeorbrake

kenmm wrote: »

Markets are already all over the place. If a bank is about to fall, you think they are just gonna let everyone take all their cash out? You think it would be even possible?

Not just Greece, look at UK, northern rock etc. Lots of examples around the world..

Add capital controls in Argentina over the past couple of decades. Add capital controls in Lebanon over the past year. There are plenty more such examples.

theballz wrote: »

And I suppose the moon landing never happened?

Ready and happy to discuss the topic with you whenever you are. However, resorting to some derogatory remark without any proper reference to whatever it is you're claiming does not form part of a discussion.

theballz wrote: »

I’m not asking about bank collapses, I am asking for examples of where/when people like us have had everything taking from them in “one click” as previously suggested.

The 'one click' reference is a reference to an instantaneous ability of government to turn on or off your wealth. If a central bank comes out with their own digital currency, there's no intermediary sitting in between (as in, no retail bank involved). The government has direct access/control over your money in that instance. That's where the 'one click' reference comes from.

begbysback wrote: »

Anyone who champions removing cash from society is likely heavily invested in crypto.

There's a possibility that I may have inspired this comment. Just in case that's the case, be aware that any genuine proponent of crypto liked cash before they even came across crypto - and still does.
In my case, I accept that cash is going to disappear - that's just the way of the world. The only question is when. I have been both 'heavily invested' and not invested at all in crypto on several occasions over the past few years. I would be telling you the same thing regardless of whether invested/divested.
Would the removal of cash benefit those vested in crypto? Many suggest not - and that central bank digital currencies and private digital money (such as that recently proposed by Facebook) will take over.
I do believe that decentralised crypto will benefit (in terms of adoption) as people on this very thread will start to investigate it more at that point.
In short, are there people that speculate on crypto? All day long. Does that mean that decentralised crypto should not be a consideration for people in the absence of cash? I believe it has sufficient merits that it's worthy of consideration - regardless of whether someone else is interested in it from a speculative point of view. Remember, its government that are going to take cash away - not anyone else.

neutral guy

Guys,how you gonna hire handy man to fix your door lock or put floor on your attic ?
I will accept cash only.

Hellotonever

neutral guy wrote: »

Guys,how you gonna hire handy man to fix your door lock or put floor on your attic ?
I will accept cash only.

We'll find a handyman that accepts 21st century payment methods and you'll be priced out and become bankrupt or be forced to adapt

Hellotonever

begbysback wrote: »

Anyone who champions removing cash from society is likely heavily invested in crypto.

Is that supposed to imply some sort of conspiracy?

1. Anyone who champions precious metals is likely heavily invested in gold
2. Anyone who champions diamonds is likely heavily invested in diamond mines

etc etc etc

neutral guy

Hellotonever wrote: »

We'll find a handyman that accepts 21st century payment methods and you'll be priced out and become bankrupt or be forced to adapt

Sure I will ! But my prices will up because you will have pay my taxes and expenses !
So on door you will have 2 choices pay by cash 40 per cent less or pay by card 40 per cent more !
Or I simply will tell you I am too busy taking jobs with payments by card
And because I have good hands and reputation believe me I will busy !

makeorbrake

neutral guy wrote: »

Sure I will ! But my prices will up because you will have pay my taxes and expenses !

Correct.

neutral guy wrote: »

So on door you will have 2 choices pay by cash 40 per cent less or pay by card 40 per cent more !

That's the current scenario. That's not the scenario where cash doesn't exist.

neutral guy wrote: »

Or I simply will tell you I am too busy taking jobs with payments by card. And because I have good hands and reputation believe me I will busy !

Again, that's the current scenario - not the future one - where cash doesn't exist. You can be the worlds best tradesman - but nevertheless, people won't be able to pay you in cash if cash doesn't exist at that point. I guess you can plead with your government to lower taxes in that instance.

neutral guy

The first thing guys please stop dreaming about things which never gonna happen in country which help multinationals avoid taxes.
There will be no cashless world in Ireland.
And finally many people can not find good carpenter because many young lads spending time on them phones in cashless world and has no interest in work at all.They will better take a loan for new Iphone than will work longer hours trying get cash for it.

makeorbrake

neutral guy wrote: »

The first thing guys please stop dreaming about things which never gonna happen in country which help multinationals avoid taxes.
There will be no cashless world in Ireland.

The thread is specifically about the move to cashless. If you're telling everyone to stop considering it, it seems like a waste of your time here.
The removal of cash is guaranteed as far as i can see. The only question is how long that process takes. Digitisation of everything is ongoing and money will be part of that.
Additionally I can't imagine what you think taxation policy in Ireland in relation to multinationals has to do with going cashless. Most central banks around the world have projects open on digital currency. China has one being actively tested right now. You think they're doing that to pass the time?
The yanks had included it in a Covid aid bill - they were going to use digital money to distribute free money but took that proposal out at the last minute (presumably because they're simply not ready yet and its not the sort of thing you can rush through).

neutral guy wrote: »

And finally many people can not find good carpenter because many young lads spending time on them phones in cashless world and has no interest in work at all.They will better take a loan for new Iphone than will work longer hours trying get cash for it.

You think central banks are going to hold off on digital currency because Johnny down the road wont be able to afford to get a lad to do a bit of carpentry?:D Talk to Joe?

Bubbaclaus

So we finally know neutral guys real argument here, he is defrauding the taxpayers of Ireland by committing tax evasion and he won't be able to get away with that in a cashless society.

A criminal wont be able to commit his crime anymore. Oh no.

Wanderer78

Bubbaclaus wrote:

A criminal wont be able to commit his crime anymore. Oh no.

I wouldn't garantee this, never underestimate how intelligent humans are, we truly regularly experience 'it can't be done, until it is done', anything that is created by humans, generally can be broken by humans, our technical understanding is astonishing, and young generations are truly incredible at this stuff.

Tax evasion is reletively common in society, from the individual to the largest of corporations, such acts can be, and sometimes are, immoral, but some tax laws and systems also behave immorally and unjust. evasion can be, and is, generally a negative social act, but sometimes, it can be just sometimes, justified, or at least, understood

Hodors Appletart

Had no trouble finding a tradesman to take payment by revolut 2 weeks ago - three tradesmen in fact, carpenter, sparks and plasterer. they did a bang up job too best work we've ever got done in the house.

Wanderer78

Hodors Appletart wrote:

Had no trouble finding a tradesman to take payment by revolut 2 weeks ago - three tradesmen in fact, carpenter, sparks and plasterer. they did a bang up job too best work we've ever got done in the house.

What's the craic with those cards?

Hodors Appletart

what do you mean? I transfer money in from my ptsb account as and when I need it, two clicks on an app

it's piss easy to send money to anyone else who has an account, instant transfer of funds and it works with google and apple pay

Wanderer78

Hodors Appletart wrote:

what do you mean? I transfer money in from my ptsb account as and when I need it, two clicks on an app

What's the craic with charges etc?

Hodors Appletart

Wanderer78 wrote: »

What's the craic with charges etc?

no monthly fee on a basic account afaik but there is a one off set up charge

there are a number of free monthly withdrawals too but I hardly ever need cash these days

the only thing I actually need hard currency for is my son's football classes the coach there only takes cash

transfers from your own back are free, transfers between people are free

kenmm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

A criminal wont be able to commit his crime anymore. Oh no.

I don't get this attitude, it's has been raised a few times on this thread.

Crime wont go away because we go cashless. Drug dealing will continue, not paying taxes will continue etc.

Some forms of these crimes may get a little more difficult (buying drugs on the street for example) but others will grow and maybe even became more streamlined (online dealing for example).

Geuze

kenmm wrote: »

I don't get this attitude, it's has been raised a few times on this thread.

Crime wont go away because we go cashless. Drug dealing will continue, not paying taxes will continue etc.

Some forms of these crimes may get a little more difficult (buying drugs on the street for example) but others will grow and maybe even became more streamlined (online dealing for example).

I still think that overall, crime would fall.

El Tarangu

kenmm wrote: »

I don't get this attitude, it's has been raised a few times on this thread.

Crime wont go away because we go cashless. Drug dealing will continue, not paying taxes will continue etc.

Some forms of these crimes may get a little more difficult (buying drugs on the street for example) but others will grow and maybe even became more streamlined (online dealing for example).

I don't think bubbaclaus was referring to crime in general; I think he was referring to neutral guy's "poor me" story about the prospect of having to pay taxes on the €50k a year he is making doing nixers

kenmm

Geuze wrote: »

I still think that overall, crime would fall.

Possibly in some sectors, like small tax issues etc but drug trade for example- no chance, not while there is demand.

kenmm

El Tarangu wrote: »

I don't think bubbaclaus was referring to crime in general; I think he was referring to neutral guy's "poor me" story about the prospect of having to pay taxes on the €50k a year he is making doing nixers

Yep fair enough!

CertifiedSimp

Can you imagine if cash wasn't allowed anymore. We'd have insurers looking at spend upping their prices based on purchases?

Oh look little Billy bought 2 takeaways last week, up his premium!

El Tarangu

CertifiedSimp wrote: »

Can you imagine if cash wasn't allowed anymore. We'd have insurers looking at spend upping their prices based on purchases?

Oh look little Billy bought 2 takeaways last week, up his premium!

Do you think that health insurers are somehow able to access your credit card statements?

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote: »

I still think that overall, crime would fall.

maybe, maybe not, we ve no way of truly knowing for sure. i was informed recently of a mugging in the states, the criminals had a card reader with them, to make sure they got everything! could also be a bullsh1t story to, but.....

kenmm

El Tarangu wrote: »

Do you think that health insurers are somehow able to access your credit card statements?

Of course they can't. Currently. But once its possible (I mean it is possible now, but not reliable as not everything it tracked), I can see ways for it to happen very quickly.

El Tarangu

kenmm wrote: »

Of course they can't. Currently. But once its possible (I mean it is possible now, but not reliable as not everything it tracked), I can see ways for it to happen very quickly.

That's the thing; as with a lot of the other nightmare scenarios people are proposing, it would require some sort of collapse of the institutions of civil society, and not just the abolition of cash.

As you noted, the technology already exists for banks and insurance companies to collude in this way; they don't, as a rule, because there are laws against it. If banks and insurance companies decided to start ignoring data protection rules willy-nilly, we would be in all sorts of trouble - completely apart from, and separate to, whether society is cashless or not.

Wanderer78

El Tarangu wrote: »

That's the thing; as with a lot of the other nightmare scenarios people are proposing, it would require some sort of collapse of the institutions of civil society, and not just the abolition of cash.

As you noted, the technology already exists for banks and insurance companies to collude in this way; they don't, as a rule, because there are laws against it. If banks and insurance companies decided to start ignoring data protection rules willy-nilly, we would be in all sorts of trouble - completely apart from, and separate to, whether society is cashless or not.

you ll find these industries employ extremely intelligent people, who are well able to work their way around laws, loads of evidence out there to support that

kenmm

El Tarangu wrote: »

That's the thing; as with a lot of the other nightmare scenarios people are proposing, it would require some sort of collapse of the institutions of civil society, and not just the abolition of cash.

As you noted, the technology already exists for banks and insurance companies to collude in this way; they don't, as a rule, because there are laws against it. If banks and insurance companies decided to start ignoring data protection rules willy-nilly, we would be in all sorts of trouble - completely apart from, and separate to, whether society is cashless or not.

No collusion needed. No law breaking required. It's very easy - 10% off to access your accounts via open banking APIs?

Done.

Fast forward a few years of this, where the majority are giving up their data for feck all and it becomes the norm. Fast forward another few years and the next generation accept the invasion of privacy for "discounts" as fact - they way it always was.

Look at mobile phone usage and what people give away for free. If you were to tell people in the the late 90s/ early 2000s that you you would have traffic alerts on a mobile device and all you had to do was let a company track your movements - what do you think the general response would have been?