The current trend of removing cash is a serious mistake

El Tarangu

seamus wrote: »

The point here is that there is functionally no difference between your mate transferring cash via WU and your bank doing exactly the same thing.

Indeed. The only difference is MOH had to go through a convoluted series of steps (phone friend, find a WU office, drive to bank, find parking, queue, talk to teller) in order to obtain their cash. Whereas someone who had internet banking on their phone could have sorted everything in less than an hour, and then got back to their holiday.

meeeeh

seamus wrote: »

You could have, for example, an EU-wide agreement between banks that allowed for an emergency bank card to be issued by any EU bank to any customer of any other bank in any other country, which would give them instant access to withdraw cash from their own account bank home.

No reason why worldwide the banks couldn't appoint an agent (e.g. WU) to do this from any location.

This would be just as quick, and even more secure than trying to get physical cash transferred to you.

English is not my first language but as far as I know 'could' is not the same as 'can'.

meeeeh

El Tarangu wrote: »

Indeed. The only difference is MOH had to go through a convoluted series of steps (phone friend, find a WU office, drive to bank, find parking, queue, talk to teller) in order to obtain their cash. Whereas someone who had internet banking on their phone could have sorted everything in less than an hour, and then got back to their holiday.

I have internet banking on my phone and android pay. Enlighten me how could I do that for larger amounts. Not to mention that many countries use cash a lot more than Ireland and often we need more money than chicken feed amounts you can tap with your phone.

Geuze

Over the past ten years, with payment card use increasing, you might think the demand for cash would have fallen.

But I don't think cash in circulation has fallen?

Does anybody have the M1 narrow MS data?

meeeeh

beauf wrote: »

That because you are choosing to go to the shops for large amounts rather than shop online. Its got nothing to do with cashless banking.

Not that I think there is a great risk from shopping. If it had been identified as high risk they wouldn't have opened it up.

Of course there is risk, it's less risk now but there is risk. Anyway my point was that I find tapping pretty much useless at the moment not that I'm not paying by my card.

El Tarangu

meeeeh wrote: »

I have internet banking on my phone and android pay. Enlighten me how could I do that for larger amounts.

This just sounds like the cardless payments system could be fine-tuned, rather than a conceptual problem with the system (I don't live in Ireland, so I don't know your setup; I can use the Bancontact app to pay whatever amount).

Not to mention that many countries use cash a lot more than Ireland and often we need more money than chicken feed amounts you can tap with your phone.

Once again, cash is the problematic part of the equation.

meeeeh

El Tarangu wrote: »

Once again, cash is the problematic part of the equation.

What are you going to do? Colonise them so they get to your standards of perfection?

El Tarangu

meeeeh wrote: »

What are you going to do? Colonise them so they get to your standards of perfection?

Why are you getting the hump with me? I proposed that the benefits of a cashless society would outweigh the drawbacks; you are responding mainly with foibles caused by the continuing existence of cash. Why is it, do you think, that bars and restaurants in certain countries prefer cash than cards?

seamus

meeeeh wrote: »

English is not my first language but as far as I know 'could' is not the same as 'can'.

That's a perfect summation of my post actually

The issues with cashless are things that you can't do, but could do if an effort was made.

They're not things that are impossible to do.

It's worth remembering that nobody who talks positively about cashless is talking about burning all notes tomorrow and dropping physical currency overnight. It's a slower process that involves filling in all those gaps - like the one you pointed out - with appropriate cashless solutions.

In terms of "I just need to give my mate five quid I owe him", eventually it will be possible to just tap your phones together to transfer money. The idea that you'd have to go and withdraw twenty quid and then go into a shop and break it, before you can give your mate his fiver, will seem insanely antiquated.

whippet

a near cashless society operates in Sweden quite well - it helps that the mentality of the majority is one of paying your taxes.

It's almost impossible to pay for anything significant in cash - you'd never rock up to someones house to by a car and hand over notes - apart from them not accepting it from you - the tax man would be calling around very quickly. The Swedes' have a mentality of self regulation like this.

I have a brother over there who is running a business which involves importing from the UK and Ireland - from a sector who like to deal in cash. It is very hard for him to maintain his legitimacy when your suppliers want cash and don't like invoices.

Alun

seamus wrote: »

In terms of "I just need to give my mate five quid I owe him", eventually it will be possible to just tap your phones together to transfer money. The idea that you'd have to go and withdraw twenty quid and then go into a shop and break it, before you can give your mate his fiver, will seem insanely antiquated.

You can already do this in the Netherlands ...

https://www.abnamro.nl/en/personal/internet-and-mobile/apps/Tikkie/index.html

beauf

meeeeh wrote: »

Of course there is risk, it's less risk now but there is risk. Anyway my point was that I find tapping pretty much useless at the moment not that I'm not paying by my card.

None of this has anything to do with removing cash.

You've just decided to do large shopping in person rather than online.

The pin thing is a security issue.

tjhook

Just a thought. Maybe somebody with more knowledge than I have of economics can comment...

Imagine the major Western economies went cashless. Later, one or two of the "too big to fail" EU countries get into trouble, dragging the EU downwards. The Euro's value becomes a bit unstable.

Could businesses in the EU (especially multinationals) start charging EU customers in e.g. $USD? A poster in another thread pointed out that a business is not obliged to accept any particular form of payment, and can insist on payment in "bags of feathers" if they like. So if currency is just numbers in the cloud, accessible through everybody's cashless payment systems, couldn't businesses in the EU start insisting in payment through some other currency instead? I imagine part of the reason businesses didn't expect payment other currencies during previous crashes is that people wouldn't have it in their pockets. We already see business in border areas accepting both Euro and GBP. And some of my online purchases with non-US companies are in $USD.

If this was to become widespread, would it be a problem? I can't imagine it being particularly good for the EU, but I'm not sure if it would cause any difficulties. Maybe further destabilise the theoretically under-pressure Euro?

kenmm

snoopboggybog wrote: »

It would be fantastic, every cent would accounted for.

Drug dealers would piss their pants.

Yep - just a lot more of them would be accounted for via stolen credit cards and other illegal means.

You don't think there are already ways to no cash transactions? You think if cash were to be used less (or eradicated), the drug trade would just collectively shrug its shoulders and give up? "Oh well, nice run while it lasted, but now there is no cash we better go get legit jobs to make money".

donspeekinglesh

meeeeh wrote: »

often we need more money than chicken feed amounts you can tap with your phone.

Other than Tesco (and a few other stores) that limit(ed) the amount you could tap with your phone to €30, the is no actual limit that I know of. I've tapped for transactions in the hundreds numerous times.

ShatterAlan

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Privacy for what? To dodge paying tax?
Removing it will be one of the best things to happen.

What the fcu are you talking about dodging paying tax? Do you pay tax if you tap your card but not if you pay cash?


And why wouldn't people want to make anonymous purchases?

nyc-dublin

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Privacy for what? To dodge paying tax?
Removing it will be one of the best things to happen.

Cash is one of the last little corners of privacy you have in your entire life.
Every text you type, every site you visit, every place you ever go is filed away , catalogued and stored away forever on some global corporations servers.


You like an odd flutter in the bookies? A sneaky bottle of wine on the way home from work? Every purchase you ever make is available and the data is sold to the highest bidder. Then eventually health insurance companies and governments get a hold of the information and deny you for a loan or health care cover and so on and on.

Its about control.

kenmm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

What the fcu are you talking about dodging paying tax? Do you pay tax if you tap your card but not if you pay cash?

I think this is more to do with certain industries (Home builders, doctors, fitters, dealers (backstreet car, drugs etc) taking cash and under-reporting things like VAT etc. Not small purchases in supermarket shops etc (although some shops and restaurants would under declare too..)

Cordell

The VAT is what you, the customer, is paying. I've been quoted multiple times xxx euros for cash in hand, xxx+VAT otherwise.

KyussB

Cashless Society + Negative Interest Rates = You pay the bank interest for them to hold your money.

That means, even in the deepest deflationary depths of a depression, it's as if you're still being hammered by inflation (just instead, it'll be due to negative interest rates, in response to the economic crisis).

paw patrol

KyussB wrote: »

Cashless Society + Negative Interest Rates = You pay the bank interest for them to hold your money.

That means, even in the deepest deflationary depths of a depression, it's as if you're still being hammered by inflation (just instead, it'll be due to negative interest rates, in response to the economic crisis).

this !
in a cashless society your wealth is locked into the banks. there is no outside system except barter. there is a huge loss of independence.

As usual I'm always saddened and dumbfounded by the posters of boards who willingly hand over their independence for convenience and/or security . It's madness.

Once your money is gone into the system , it owns you. You can be stripped of everything and denied service because the system says "no". Who owns that system? not you for sure.

Geuze

paw patrol wrote: »

this !
in a cashless society your wealth is locked into the banks. there is no outside system except barter. there is a huge loss of independence.

The majority of wealth is held in houses, not in deposits.

Although deposits are fairly substantial.


Note that now, people hold way more in current accounts than in cash, anyways.

tobefrank321

meeeeh wrote: »

I have internet banking on my phone and android pay. Enlighten me how could I do that for larger amounts. Not to mention that many countries use cash a lot more than Ireland and often we need more money than chicken feed amounts you can tap with your phone.

There are easy ways around the issue of losing your card abroad. Nearly all taxi companies take card payments, including online, eg Uber. All you need is your card details, not even a physical card. Most bus companies you can book a ticket online with card details. For small food transactions you can use google or apple pay.

The idea that you can be stuck abroad without cash or cards just doesn't wash in the modern world.

tobefrank321

nyc-dublin wrote: »

Cash is one of the last little corners of privacy you have in your entire life.
Every text you type, every site you visit, every place you ever go is filed away , catalogued and stored away forever on some global corporations servers.


You like an odd flutter in the bookies? A sneaky bottle of wine on the way home from work? Every purchase you ever make is available and the data is sold to the highest bidder. Then eventually health insurance companies and governments get a hold of the information and deny you for a loan or health care cover and so on and on.

Its about control.

Why would health insurance or governments deny you a loan or health care cover based on a sneaky bottle of wine?

Or for the odd flutter at the bookies?

um7y1h83ge06nx

paw patrol wrote: »

this !
in a cashless society your wealth is locked into the banks. there is no outside system except barter. there is a huge loss of independence.

As usual I'm always saddened and dumbfounded by the posters of boards who willingly hand over their independence for convenience and/or security . It's madness.

Once your money is gone into the system , it owns you. You can be stripped of everything and denied service because the system says "no". Who owns that system? not you for sure.

I don't think there is any incentive for banks, countries etc. to take people's money - money is needed to flow around an economy in order to generate wealth, create the need for jobs etc.

Plus if there was a massive money grab it would surely lead to mass hysteria, protests, violence etc.

tensimo

I agree, were swapping privacy for convenients more and more these days

nyc-dublin

nyc-dublin wrote: »

Cash is one of the last little corners of privacy you have in your entire life.
Every text you type, every site you visit, every place you ever go is filed away , catalogued and stored away forever on some global corporations servers.


You like an odd flutter in the bookies? A sneaky bottle of wine on the way home from work? Every purchase you ever make is available and the data is sold to the highest bidder. Then eventually health insurance companies and governments get a hold of the information and deny you for a loan or health care cover and so on and on.

Its about control.

Summed up perfectly.

I'm not surprised that there are contrary opinions; just the amount of them.
What next? Where will it end? People lining up voluntarily for microchips :eek:

El Tarangu

paw patrol wrote: »

this !
in a cashless society your wealth is locked into the banks. there is no outside system except barter. there is a huge loss of independence.

What would be stopping someone in a cashless society from buying gold, and storing their wealth that way?

El Tarangu

nyc-dublin wrote: »

Cash is one of the last little corners of privacy you have in your entire life.
Every text you type, every site you visit, every place you ever go is filed away , catalogued and stored away forever on some global corporations servers.

This is true, and is indeed one of the drawbacks of a cashless society.

But the benefits in crime prevention still more than compensate for this, IMO: take the example of a country like Greece. Tax evasion in Greece accounts for something between 6% and 9% of GDP each year, which represents a loss to the state of between €11 and €16 billion a year.

People who work in PAYE jobs are screwed by high taxes, while small business owners in the service industry can accept only cash, pay staff cash-in-hand, and generally freeload on the backs of taxpayers. A cashless society would not be able to eliminate this completely, but it would certainly make a huge dent in it.

meeeeh

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Why would health insurance or governments deny you a loan or health care cover based on a sneaky bottle of wine?

Or for the odd flutter at the bookies?

Or why you would get lower quotes for insurance if you are prepared to instal dash cam? Yes why would different businesses dig into your habits to decide who is more desirable as a customer. Why do you think personalised data is so important for companies and why Tesco gives you awards if you use their loyalty card. It's not because they are so nice.