The current trend of removing cash is a serious mistake

ZeroThreat

El Tarangu wrote: »

What would be stopping someone in a cashless society from buying gold, and storing their wealth that way?

Well in a cashless society you couldn't pay for the gold with cash, so there would be a record of you making large payments to known gold dealing companies.

If the ruling classes wish for society to become cashless as a way to know down to the penny what each citizen is worth, they'll have to criminalise hoarding of precious metals/jems and all crypto too.

tobefrank321

Deleted User wrote: »

Summed up perfectly.

I'm not surprised that there are contrary opinions; just the amount of them.
What next? Where will it end? People lining up voluntarily for microchips :eek:

How does the illogical proposition that health insurance providers won't provide insurance if you have an odd flutter or bottle of wine sum it up perfectly?

GhostyMcGhost

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Cash is king.

The king is dead. Long live the king

tobefrank321

meeeeh wrote: »

Or why you would get lower quotes for insurance if you are prepared to instal dash cam? Yes why would different businesses dig into your habits to decide who is more desirable as a customer. Why do you think personalised data is so important for companies and why Tesco gives you awards if you use their loyalty card. It's not because they are so nice.

Health insurance companies cannot look at your credit card or bank statements.

This is starting to get ridiculous.

meeeeh

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Health insurance companies cannot look at your credit card or bank statements.

This is starting to get ridiculous.

I never said they can but banks do flag the transactions to bookies when you are looking for mortgage. Will you tell me your potential landlord can't ask for bank statement.

Laws schange and the moment you sign away your privacy you won't get it back. I almost never use cash but I wouldn't want the option to be taken away.

El Tarangu

ZeroThreat wrote: »

Well in a cashless society you couldn't pay for the gold with cash, so there would be a record of you making large payments to known gold dealing companies.

If the ruling classes wish for society to become cashless as a way to know down to the penny what each citizen is worth, they'll have to criminalise hoarding of precious metals/jems and all crypto too.

Why on earth would you frame the move towards a cashless society in such extraordinary terms: at present the trend (such as it is) is being driven by banks and retailers, who in turn are being spurred on by consumers. At present there is no impediment to people paying in cash as much as they, but more and more people are opting for contactless or whatever, because it is convenient.

paw patrol

Geuze wrote: »

The majority of wealth is held in houses, not in deposits.

Although deposits are fairly substantial.


Note that now, people hold way more in current accounts than in cash, anyways.

El Tarangu wrote: »

What would be stopping someone in a cashless society from buying gold, and storing their wealth that way?

you are both correct, I did focus (in my mind) on liquid assets for day to day stuff rather than savings and hoarding.

Hassan Tangy Uterus wrote: »

I don't think there is any incentive for banks, countries etc. to take people's money - money is needed to flow around an economy in order to generate wealth, create the need for jobs etc.

Plus if there was a massive money grab it would surely lead to mass hysteria, protests, violence etc.

perhaps but we've seen on the internet already some people have fallen foul of tech companies (liberal types like youtube , twitter) then have banks cancel their accounts despite them doing nothing wrong in banking terms.

It just shows that that power exists now to shut people out of the system at least partially that would be amplified if you didn't have cash to fall back on.
That's the fear a loss of independence and reliance on the system

tobefrank321

paw patrol wrote: »

perhaps but we've seen on the internet already some people have fallen foul of tech companies (liberal types like youtube , twitter) then have banks cancel their accounts despite them doing nothing wrong in banking terms.

Example?

super_furry

Won't someone think of the poor taxi-men?

tobefrank321

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Why would health insurance or governments deny you a loan or health care cover based on a sneaky bottle of wine?

Or for the odd flutter at the bookies?

POS systems aren't designed the way that the conspiracy theorists on here believe, at least not the three different systems I have seen coded.

The system send the total amount due to the bank along with the stores merchant id and your cc details and receive back authorisation or not. They don't send details of the goods included in the sale.

The sale, as in the goods that you buy are stored along with the method of payment, on the POS system if using a card it doesn't store the card number or any details about it or you.

What the op is talking about is the data that is stored along with a loyalty card that you use, regardless of the method of payment used.

Now I have not worked on a such a system. From talking to people who have, what is stored for marketing purposes etc, if you sign up to one what is used to build models is your age, gender (which can be prefer not to say), and marital status (again can be prefer not to say). From this they are able to build models such as e.g. single males between 18 & 25 prefer beer x to beer y, people in the age group 25 - 40 who are married are most likely to buy items on special offer rather than the most popular brand.

Anything else that would personally identity a person would be a breach of current privacy laws which would result in large fines if such a system was breached and personally identifiable information was stolen.

The argument in relation to if it's worth a company holding data that it shouldn't against the costs of securing the data and potential fines and loss of goodwill is the one I would look at.

Rarely use cash..... Usually it's on credit card....no transaction fee..... Annual credit card charges are a bargain for all your purchases on 30 day ish free tick.

ShatterAlan

tobefrank321 wrote: »

There are numerous payment apps for your phone, which you probably should have set up before going on holidays. They are generally tap and go.

Phones get lost/stolen too. And without money it's going to be hard to buy a replacement especially when they cost several hundred euros.

The J Stands for Jay

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I am amazed after the last 12 years that people think that Banking institutions and Governments are infallible.

I'm amazed that anyone thinks people only have 1 or 2 bank accounts only in Ireland.

The J Stands for Jay

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Its about control and your right to own wealth. You are trusting your wealth completely to the state. It is happening gradually where you own less and less property and you are losing your rights.

The state own all cash.

ShatterAlan

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Who exactly would be interested in your card transactions? And you realise if a government really wanted to know what you are doing there are numerous other ways such checking your mobile phone data, gps or towers you've pinged, your online social media presence, or just by listening in using your phone or home assistant devices. And you are already conducting most transactions by card anyways including all online transactions. I doubt the government is interested in the 99 icecream you bought using cash or the bit of timber you bought at the hardware store. They don't care.

How do you know they don't care? Big data companies and advertisers would salivate over this data. If they constantly monitor your online footprint (not everybody has much of an online presence) surely they'd be interested in your purchasing history (EVERYBODY purchases.)

tobefrank321

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Phones get lost/stolen too. And without money it's going to be hard to buy a replacement especially when they cost several hundred euros.

As I said, if he had a record of his card details and/or an Uber account it would be enough to book a bus or taxi to the airport. And also enough to check out from his hotel with extra expenses such as food included. Still not enough to justify why cash should remain king.

meeeeh

tobefrank321 wrote: »

As I said, if he had a record of his card details and/or an Uber account it would be enough to book a bus or taxi to the airport. And also enough to check out from his hotel with extra expenses such as food included. Still not enough to justify why cash should remain king.

And we can just leave all the older people who are not as tech savy to die at the side of the road. When they are tired enough and hungry enough they will figure out how to use Google pay and Uber.

All this thread shows how it's all about me me me. It's an attitude of I don't care about people who live outside decent Internet coverage, I don't care about vulnerable or elderly. Maybe it shouldn't be called cashless society maybe it should be called me society.

tobefrank321

meeeeh wrote: »

And we can just leave all the older people who are not as tech savy to die at the side of the road. When they are tired enough and hungry enough they will figure out how to use Google pay and Uber.

Why do older people need to take cash from an ATM? This is one of the great mysteries of our time. The same card and pin can be used in exactly the same way in any shop without the need for cash. Most taxis have POS devices and can also take payments using the same card.

And using online banking is hardly the high end of tech savvy but if they need to transfer money to someone they can still go to a traditional bank counter.

antimatterx

It really isn't. Cash is filthy and easy to lose.

Maybe it's a generational thing, as my parents (late 40's, early 50s)would go to an ATM while doing a weekly shop, withdraw cash and pay with cash instead of just paying with their card. My parents think it's weird to pay for small transactions (eg a coffee) with a card.

On the other my generation (early 20s) would rarely have cash, pay with everything by card, and in ideal situation we would have everything on are phone, and have 0 physical cards.

There is no reason why all cards and more(debit/credit cards, leap cards, passport, drivers licence) shouldn't be in a digital wallet.

TFI have said it will take 7 years to integrate leap cards into digital wallets. 7 years to integrate a technology that already exists. I hate how inefficient technology can be in government bodies. There is so much bloat, and people who need to feel like they're making decisions.

um7y1h83ge06nx

meeeeh wrote: »

All this thread shows how it's all about me me me. It's an attitude of I don't care about people who live outside decent Internet coverage, I don't care about vulnerable or elderly. Maybe it shouldn't be called cashless society maybe it should be called me society.

I agree that we need to ensure the elderly and vulnerable aren't left behind. One other perspective is that holding large amounts of cash makes people vulnerable to robberies. Criminals know that elderly people tend to keep more cash at home than most and they are easy targets.

Growing up in North Kerry there was a fair few robberies of large amounts of cash from elderly people, tens of thousands of what was pounds at the time.

Maybe the best solution is having both options like we have now - cashless and electronic payments but ensure people know the pros and cons of each.

As a PAYE employee I like card as it convenient and I do lots of online shopping. If I was a small to medium business owner I would definitely be using more cash for obvious tax "advantages".

ShatterAlan

kenmm wrote: »

Yep - just a lot more of them would be accounted for via stolen credit cards and other illegal means.

You don't think there are already ways to no cash transactions? You think if cash were to be used less (or eradicated), the drug trade would just collectively shrug its shoulders and give up? "Oh well, nice run while it lasted, but now there is no cash we better go get legit jobs to make money".

Agreed. If cash disappeared and electronic payments were the only option then how would a drug dealer get around this. I would imagine he would just set up a company and people receive their drugs and pay electronically for something like "consulting services", "labour", "psychic palm reading", something completely intangible like that.

ShatterAlan

Hassan Tangy Uterus wrote: »

I don't think there is any incentive for banks, countries etc. to take people's money - money is needed to flow around an economy in order to generate wealth, create the need for jobs etc.

Plus if there was a massive money grab it would surely lead to mass hysteria, protests, violence etc.

Are you serious? What do you think the whole 2008 meltdown was all about? It was the biggest heist in history.

kenmm

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Health insurance companies cannot look at your credit card or bank statements.

Yet. But over time, more and more different sets of data will be linked. This is happening all around us (google processing NHS records in UK - similar will happen here) etc.

As companies strive to become more competitive, all sorts of new ways of using your data will be thought up.

I'm sure if you went back a couple of decades, the compromises we make today would be seen as ridiculous (voluntarily giving away your location data to allow other people to see traffic on a map for example).

kenmm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Agreed. If cash disappeared and electronic payments were the only option then how would a drug dealer get around this. I would imagine he would just set up a company and people receive their drugs and pay electronically for something like "consulting services", "labour", "psychic palm reading", something completely intangible like that.

Or any of the alternative currencies that they already use..

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

nyc-dublin wrote: »

Cash is one of the last little corners of privacy you have in your entire life.
Every text you type, every site you visit, every place you ever go is filed away , catalogued and stored away forever on some global corporations servers.


You like an odd flutter in the bookies? A sneaky bottle of wine on the way home from work? Every purchase you ever make is available and the data is sold to the highest bidder. Then eventually health insurance companies and governments get a hold of the information and deny you for a loan or health care cover and so on and on.

Its about control.

I doubt that'll happen. If you go into your bank transactions on the app, you can see a breakdown of categories such as food, automotive, entertainment, etc., but not specific purchases.

The banks might see a Paddy Powerful transaction and deny you a loan if there's several, however, I doubt health insurers will have access to transactions.

I hope you're wrong for all our sakes.

freshpopcorn

I know some people they've young enough grandparents who worked in offices, etc and they were always tech savy.
They honestly have no idea how computer illiterate some people are.
Now some have got into the swing of it but it's simply double dutch to some.
They go to bank and go to the counter for their money or to the post office. They often don't even have a card and if they do it's very basic one. I'm talking about rural country people who've never left the country or even stayed in a hotel in Ireland. They had difficulty when they had to get a saorview box. It baffled them for months and I know one guy and he still hasn't the hang of it
Now if we were to go cashless. They'd need to be something done for them. They'd certainly need a phasing in of things and not just a few ads and a classes at the local library.
It might sound patronising.

um7y1h83ge06nx

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Are you serious? What do you think the whole 2008 meltdown was all about? It was the biggest heist in history.

Maybe I genuinely missed it but I don't think people lost their deposits. Did anyone lose deposits in Ireland?

This discussion has expanded beyond payment methods and more now about having faith in banks.

I don't trust banks all that much but I couldn't rest easy by not having my money in a bank. The largest amount of cash I have had here in the house was about 5k to pay for some wedding stuff and I was paranoid having that much hanging around.

Before we bought this house we had a significant deposit in our bank accounts for the purchase, well over 100k. I couldn't fathom keeping that much cash in a home safe unless it was very extremely high spec, fireproof, waterproof and buried in the concrete floor.

By look it's up to individuals as to whether they want to deposit money in banks or use electronic payments.

ShatterAlan

I really don't understand those who are such evangelists for tax. I mean those that think that every single transaction between parties should be taxed.


Now before the ultra-conformists all start getting their knickers in a twist I'm not advocating abolishing tax like some kind of anarcho-freeman. Most agree that taxes are necessary for the provision of communal services, etc.


In medieval times taxes were levied to keep the kings in the pink and to fund wars of conquest and exploitation which made their pink even pinker. Those who paid the taxes didn't get much in return and if they refused they were put to the sword effectively.


Fast forward to modern times and yes taxes actually now generally benefit the wider populace. But why is everything taxed? I mean if I have a job and I pay my income tax and what's left over is mine to do what I want with then why can't I use my leftover "after tax" money to do with as I please. Why do I need to pay more tax on everything I spend it on. I don't really have to do that with cash...well I do if I'm using cash to buy something from a business regardless if I pay with a card or with coins and notes.



But if society becomes completely cashless then you have to probably pay taxes on everything you do. For example if I want to go to the bank/cash machine and withdraw some notes and then rock up to the local farmer and give him a crisp 20 euro note for a few bags of cooking apples and a few more bags of blackberries and raspberries and gooseberries that grow around his land then what the fcuk has that got to do with the government. What's their entitlement to this P2P transaction. If the only way I can pay him is via a bank transfer then a tax will be levied on him and maybe a sales tax on me. Why? Fcuk off goverment. Maybe my girlfriend could give him a handjob in lieu of a money payment. That might work.


If I scavenge a load of scrap metal on my day off and bring it to the scrap yard and he weighs it and gives me some cash, again what entitlement has the Revenue to this?


People are so quick to use the phrase "lost revenue". It's not lost revenue. It wasn't stolen. Nobody marched into the castle court, spear in hand and made off over the hills with sacks of pieces of eight. It's potential revenue that was not fleeced. It's the same bullsh1t argument as a woman coming home with 2 dresses, 3 pairs of shoes, a handbag, some fancy accessories and claiming that they were in the sale. They would have cost 1200 quid but she only paid 700 so she made a 500 euro saving/profit.

The J Stands for Jay

Dravokivich wrote: »

You never buy or sell anything 2nd hand so?

I don't think I've ever done it using cash. Credit cards, bank transfers and revolut for cars. PayPal for loads of other things

ShatterAlan

Hassan Tangy Uterus wrote: »

Maybe I genuinely missed it but I don't think people lost their deposits. Did anyone lose deposits in Ireland?

This discussion has expanded beyond payment methods and more now about having faith in banks.

I don't trust banks all that much but I couldn't rest easy by not having my money in a bank. The largest amount of cash I have had here in the house was about 5k to pay for some wedding stuff and I was paranoid having that much hanging around.

Before we bought this house we had a significant deposit in our bank accounts for the purchase, well over 100k. I couldn't fathom keeping that much cash in a home safe unless it was very extremely high spec, fireproof, waterproof and buried in the concrete floor.

By look it's up to individuals as to whether they want to deposit money in banks or use electronic payments.

I didn't say that people lost their deposits. But they had wealth deliberately taken from them in the form of property foreclosures, austerity measures, the gutting of public services, etc. You can't just legally rob people of their money but you can scam them out of it.



I won't get into an argument about people buying houses that they couldn't afford and thus only have themselves to blame. That's not the point. The scam was to create an asset bubble castle on sand that very few peope understood except those who DID understand it, then burst it leaving everyone high and dry. Those at the top then were free to shift wealth upwards.



My post was in response to the question as to whether banks/governments/corporations simply want to relieve you of your money. Yes, yes they do.