The current trend of removing cash is a serious mistake

The J Stands for Jay

Cordell wrote: »

Cash is king does not mean what you think it means.

Yes, it refers to the importance of liquidity in a company's balance sheet. Cash and cash equivalents includes any bank balances and debt investments with a term to maturity of less than 3 months.

The J Stands for Jay

meeeeh wrote: »

Tap and go is pretty useless for me during Corona. I don't go to the shops to get coffee or whatever just because I'm bored at home. For majority of my shopping I need to enter pin and onther purchases are done online. You would need at least 150 tap limit to make it work for families.

I did the weekly shopping at the weekend and tapped for €160 or so with no pin.

ILoveYourVibes

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Privacy for what? To dodge paying tax?
Removing it will be one of the best things to happen.

Removing cash is not going to stop people avoiding tax. You would have to be very naive to think this.
Not even on a microscopic mixer level.

4068ac1elhodqr

Removing cash wont' stop the black market, you only have to look at some of the auctions of such convicted crims, they clearly already use 'bartering' as a means of wealth storage and likely exchange (Want a cheap-ish rolex and lambo? These auctions of seized goods, are a good source).

beauf

antimatterx wrote: »

It really isn't. Cash is filthy and easy to lose.

Maybe it's a generational thing, as my parents (late 40's, early 50s)would go to an ATM while doing a weekly shop, withdraw cash and pay with cash instead of just paying with their card. My parents think it's weird to pay for small transactions (eg a coffee) with a card.

On the other my generation (early 20s) would rarely have cash, pay with everything by card, and in ideal situation we would have everything on are phone, and have 0 physical cards.

That's not a generational thing that's just people who are technophobic they exist at all ages.

There is a school of thought that using cards encourage poor money management. Using cash makes people more aware of what they are spending.

antimatterx wrote: »

There is no reason why all cards and more(debit/credit cards, leap cards, passport, drivers licence) shouldn't be in a digital wallet.

TFI have said it will take 7 years to integrate leap cards into digital wallets. 7 years to integrate a technology that already exists. I hate how inefficient technology can be in government bodies. There is so much bloat, and people who need to feel like they're making decisions.

That's Ireland. We are very backward with things like this. They had integrated systems in Europe 30 years ago that we still don't have.

Thelonious Monk

I remember paying for a taxi in Hamburg in 2006 with a debit card. 24 years later it's still an ordeal in Irish cabs. I'm surprised revenue haven't cracked down on them, they crack down on everyone else.

beauf

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Removing cash is not going to stop people avoiding tax. You would have to be very naive to think this.
Not even on a microscopic mixer level.

And yet...other than Doomsday scenerio's TAX seems to people main issue with going cashless.

4068ac1elhodqr

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I remember paying for a taxi in Hamburg in 2006 with a debit card. 24 years later it's still an ordeal in Irish cabs. I'm surprised revenue haven't cracked down on them, they crack down on everyone else.

With so many illegal cabs, cash would be the preferred method of payment (for the user), as you won't be overcharged or have card details stored and misued.


Perhaps the other side of the coin is that anyone running an illegal minicab won't be able (or won't choose to) process such digital payments, without a fiscal breadcrumb trial.

ShooterSF

The change is already there in society. Work a bar for a 50th one night and a 21st the next and you'll see the difference cashing up. One night is counting 50s and the next is matching visa slips. Personally I agree with op. I use cash whenever possible apart from the last couple of months and even still if I'm using self service I'll use cash. Cash might be king but data is the new emperor.

The J Stands for Jay

ShatterAlan wrote: »

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But if society becomes completely cashless then you have to probably pay taxes on everything you do. For example if I want to go to the bank/cash machine and withdraw some notes and then rock up to the local farmer and give him a crisp 20 euro note for a few bags of cooking apples and a few more bags of blackberries and raspberries and gooseberries that grow around his land then what the fcuk has that got to do with the government. What's their entitlement to this P2P transaction. If the only way I can pay him is via a bank transfer then a tax will be levied on him and maybe a sales tax on me. Why? Fcuk off goverment. Maybe my girlfriend could give him a handjob in lieu of a money payment. That might work.

Don't forget the ATM tax you'll be paying to get your money out.

4068ac1elhodqr

Digital Dollar and Digital Wallet for the US 2021:

A bill has surfaced in the Senate called the ‘Banking For All Act’, sponsored by the Ranking Member of the Senate Banking Committee, U.S. Senator Sherrod Brown (D-OH). In the press release, Senator Brown lays out the details of his bill as well as how he looks forward to urging his colleagues to include it as part of the coronavirus economic stimulus package.

This bill offers a definition for ‘digital dollars’ as well as for a ‘digital dollar wallet’, and provides the provision for a ‘pass-through digital dollar wallet’ with the mandate for all member banks to open and maintain digital dollar wallets for ALL persons, including those eligible to receive the stimulus.

“My legislation would allow every American to set up a free bank account so they don’t have to rely on expensive check cashers to access their hard-earned money.” Senator Sherrod Brown (D-OH)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbrett/2020/03/24/digital-dollar-and-digital-wallet-legislation-surfaces-in-the-us-senate/

Already in Texas, the homeless with not a scratch on them, can buy goods/services with a state allowance, and a (dual biometric) face and finger scan (Digital ID, d-wallet).

In Australia a similar trial ran, for more general welfare payments to non-cash card only.
However, this disallowed any spend on booze and fags for the (sad/sober) recipients.

Experience_day

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

I doubt that'll happen. If you go into your bank transactions on the app, you can see a breakdown of categories such as food, automotive, entertainment, etc., but not specific purchases.

The banks might see a Paddy Powerful transaction and deny you a loan if there's several, however, I doubt health insurers will have access to transactions.

I hope you're wrong for all our sakes.

I could bet you any sum of money you'll be wrong in the future. People píss on the idea of a slippery slope but there is truth in it.

Wouldn't have been that long ago you'd have been called a David icke lookalike for saying the government wholesale monitored the internet.

Or that insurance companies would be rolling out black box options for car insurance.

People's data will be up for grabs and it WILL lucrative and extremely invasive.

99nsr125

double jobbing wrote: »

I'd say 50 percent of small purchases I make, I have the exact amount ready.

Can you complete a tap and go transaction in under 2 seconds? vs a minimum of 12 for tap and go?

Well you'd be a guy cause the girls never have exact change, they have to do 'the rummage' for change after having ages to be ready

hometruths

Hassan Tangy Uterus wrote: »

I don't think there is any incentive for banks, countries etc. to take people's money - money is needed to flow around an economy in order to generate wealth, create the need for jobs etc.

Plus if there was a massive money grab it would surely lead to mass hysteria, protests, violence etc.

No doubt you'll have heard that negative interest rates are a real possibility? Or even a necessity once interest rates go to zero.

In a society where cash is legal tender, negative interest rates are pointless to implement because people will just withdraw their money in cash leaving the banks with no deposits.

Abolish cash and you give central banks the means and the incentive to take your money for exactly the reasons you state.

um7y1h83ge06nx

So is the end goal to move away from banks completely then and if so would people be worried about security and storing cash, gold etc. at home?

I would imagine gold being easier to store than cash but it's not as liquid an asset to spend of course, at least not currently

hometruths

Hassan Tangy Uterus wrote: »

So is the end goal to move away from banks completely then and if so would people be worried about security and storing cash, gold etc. at home?

I would imagine gold being easier to store than cash but it's not as liquid an asset to spend of course, at least not currently

Gold is very liquid within it's own small niche. It's really only a niche thing because there is currently no wider demand, but if cash was abolished that demand would grow and gold would become a lot more liquid.

People think of gold as big bullion bars, but it is perfectly possible to buy smaller denomination coins. Silver too.

It's not some sort of major conspiracy theory to think that people would start saving and transacting in gold and silver. It would be an inevitable consequence of a cashless society.

4068ac1elhodqr

Any object can be a storage of wealth, in recent months it was facemasks and hand sanatiser.

In a cashless society, anything can be bartered for other services/goods: foods, clothing, watches, sports or leisure goods, much like a swap-shop.
Silver (coins) are likely the most practical, as gold due to it's higher value may need more levels of verification, pre-transaction (in case of getting lumped with tungsten, with a gold coating).

Also anything in bar form (even the smallest) may be considered bullion, and deemed 'propery of the state' in some unique circumstances.

J Madone

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I remember paying for a taxi in Hamburg in 2006 with a debit card. 24 years later it's still an ordeal in Irish cabs. I'm surprised revenue haven't cracked down on them, they crack down on everyone else.

I take it maths is not your best subject?

Geuze

schmittel wrote: »

No doubt you'll have heard that negative interest rates are a real possibility? Or even a necessity once interest rates go to zero.

In a society where cash is legal tender, negative interest rates are pointless to implement because people will just withdraw their money in cash leaving the banks with no deposits.

Negative interest rates already exist.

The ECB deposit rate has been negative since 2014.

It is -0.50% now.

Corporate deposit rates are negative.

Geuze

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I really don't understand those who are such evangelists for tax. I mean those that think that every single transaction between parties should be taxed.


Fast forward to modern times and yes taxes actually now generally benefit the wider populace. But why is everything taxed? I mean if I have a job and I pay my income tax and what's left over is mine to do what I want with then why can't I use my leftover "after tax" money to do with as I please. Why do I need to pay more tax on everything I spend it on. I don't really have to do that with cash...well I do if I'm using cash to buy something from a business regardless if I pay with a card or with coins and notes.

There is a rationale for both direct income taxes, and for indirect taxes on expenditures.

Geuze

ShatterAlan wrote: »

But if society becomes completely cashless then you have to probably pay taxes on everything you do.

A slow movement away from cash and towards card/online payments has no direct link to tax. I don't get what you mean?

If a haircut is 10 + 13.5% VAT = 11.35, the amount of tax does not depend on the payment method.

If I pay by cash or card in Tesco, the VAT is the same.

Perhaps you might elaborate?

beachhead

Reading the posts here,all I can think of is "one track minds"God help us.

4068ac1elhodqr

Geuze wrote: »

A slow movement away from cash and towards card/online payments has no direct link to tax. I don't get what you mean?
If a haircut is 10 + 13.5% VAT = 11.35, the amount of tax does not depend on the payment method.
If I pay by cash or card in Tesco, the VAT is the same.
Perhaps you might elaborate?

(fast) movement to contactless and card only.

Your local nailbar/car-washing/mini-cab joint (not to mention romanian street collectors) may well be run by illegal migrants, i.e. in a blackmarket, cash only sales (and certainly no or very little tax). The big chief gets all the cash, his subjects pay off their human trafficiking fees by working 0.50 per hour (cash).

Remove cash viability from this equation, then they cannot operate, without creating a fiscal breadcrumb trail via a banking group, which wil then be pinged for income taxation.

Geuze

Ok, so you are suggesting that moving away from cash payments and towards card payments reduces tax evasion.

Yes, I hope it does.

4068ac1elhodqr

Geuze wrote: »

Ok, so you are suggesting that moving away from cash payments and towards card payments reduces tax evasion.

Yes, I hope it does.

In simple terms, without cash (and excluding barters) all transactions have a (digital) paper trial. If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about.


Also in the same light, why even bother with having curtains on the windows in your homes, take them all down, sure you have nothing to hide.

Geuze

There are sometimes naked or semi-naked people in my house, so we do use blinds.

4068ac1elhodqr

Geuze wrote: »

There are sometimes naked or semi-naked people in my house, so we do use blinds.

Some people close their blinds or use netting (to prevent viewability) during the daytime in mid-summer (when unlikely to be the naked).

What's up with these folks. If they has nothing to hide, then take down the privacy curtains surely (same for the tinted car windows), and also tell us all your net incomes too, were all the same really.

(of course, there is sublte point here).

nyc-dublin

Look over to our friends in China to their social credits system

Cordell

With respect to nothing to hide and preventing crime by removing its means: criminals gonna crime. What do you think they will do? Turn to honest jobs? Or, since largely non violent crimes like drug trading and smuggling will not be possible anymore they will turn to robberies and theft?

nyc-dublin

Banks already wont give you a mortgage if there is betting records on your account. Health insurance want your full health picture to give you cover. Fast forward 20 years big data has gotten A LOT bigger , everything is available to the large corporations.
Cashless society kills your freedom. It may seem trivial now but who knows what our gov and society will look like in a decade or more. It very easily kills off anyone trying to organise anti government civil rights movements by cutting off their banking access.