Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

super_furry

Hector Savage wrote: »

Just an example of something that will be considered morally reprehensible some time in the future.

Obama is considered a hero to most of these lunatics - he also loves meat apparently - big fan of Five Guys.

So in 100 years in the future we could have a situation where his statues are being torn down by the new ultra vegan movement ...

Tell you what, if in 100 years cows are marching to ensure that the Bovine Lives Matters movement can facilitate change in a society that continues to treat them as second class citizens, and if those marching cows come across a statue of Ronald McDonald and tear it down - after peaceful means of removing it were rejected - then you might have a semblance of a point.

Until then, it's all waffle.

Edgware

nullzero wrote: »

When we see mass protests against modern day slavery we can say the playing field is level on this issue.

There are supposedly 13000 people in the UK affected by modern slavery (a start from 2017) in yet we're not seeing mass protests on the issue.

It's reasonably safe to assume that the majority of people cheering the statue being torn down yesterday have no idea about these issues.

There are several modern day slaves servicing the needs of Middle Eastern diplomats in embassies around the world

Hector Savage

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

any statues to JK Rowling knocking around?

Exactly!!!

Excellent point, she is no longer a hero of the left as she dared suggest a "lady" with a 9 inch penis might be a threat when they decide to compete in womens sports.

Nermal

super_furry wrote: »

People who would insist that a statue to honour someone who sold and traded nearly 100,000 people to slavery and death should remain.

Take a look around you, how many Cromwell statues are there in Ireland?

If there were any left, fifteen generations after he breathed his last, would you join a feral baying mob in toppling it?

Are the Irish people in the UK entitled to find their nearest statue of Cromwell and tear it down?

Can I, an Irish person, go to the Pitti Palace in Florence and deface Sir Peter Lely's portrait of him - 'warts and all'?

Mitch Connor

nullzero wrote: »

When we see mass protests against modern day slavery we can say the playing field is level on this issue.

There are supposedly 13000 people in the UK affected by modern slavery (a start from 2017) in yet we're not seeing mass protests on the issue.

It's reasonably safe to assume that the majority of people cheering the statue being torn down yesterday have no idea about these issues.

And so what if they don't have knowledge of the slave trade in Africa?

Why shouldn't they protest the celebration of people who profited on the sale and explotation of humans, within the UK. Why shouldn't they concentrate on their own back-yard.

I reckon if there was a protest on the slave trade in Algeria you'd be asking why aren't they doing anything about their own history in the slave trade and their celebration of its participants.

nullzero

Edgware wrote: »

There are several modern day slaves servicing the needs of Middle Eastern diplomats in embassies around the world

I wouldn't doubt it.

I believe there was a case involving Eastern European men being kept as slaves as by travellers in the UK a few years ago, a group of people who play the discrimination card at every available opportunity. Human beings can be bastards, no matter their colour or Creed.

biko

Every time I hear about rioters dragging down statues I think of the New Model Army song "Drag it down"

They started work this morning down at city square
They're pulling down the statues of our great grandfather's hero
The new books said he wasn't such a great man after all
And anyway remember that the times they are a-changing

Hector Savage

ShamNNspace wrote: »

Maybe they might head town to ballybunion next and pull down Clinton's statue an throw it in the sea, after all wasn't it his vile wife who on Obamas watch (Power played a part in it too but she got the usual soft soap chat with Duffy the other day) pulverised a nation into the stone age turning it a haven for bandits and training ground for terrorists and a place which now sells slaves in open markets just kilometres from the EUs border. I remember just getting a disinterested half smile and quick change of subject when I mentioned it at the time. Do these Black lives matter too??

No, the slave traders in that case have also brown skin, so shhhhh !! don't talk about it or condemn it RACIST!!!!

nullzero

Mitch Connor wrote: »

And so what if they don't have knowledge of the slave trade in Africa?

Why shouldn't they protest the celebration of people who profited on the sale and explotation of humans, within the UK. Why shouldn't they concentrate on their own back-yard.

I reckon if there was a protest on the slave trade in Algeria you'd be asking why aren't they doing anything about their own history in the slave trade and their celebration of its participants.

You reckon? Really, well good for you.

Protesting against current injustice is always a much more worthy cause than pulling down statues to people who have long since ceased to be relevant. There are people currently being exploited in the UK who deserve to be thought of above someone who died a few hundred years ago.

CrankyHaus

seamus wrote: »

Bloody hell, some people will argue just for argument's sake.

If a statue of Hitler was thrown in the sea, they'd be asking, "Hitler isn't hurting anyone anymore, why are these thugs tearing down a piece of culture?"

So what's the criteria for removing any statue now, that a mob willing to do so assembles?

If I lived in Bristol I'd vote for it to be removed.
But derogating the authority to tear down statues to a mob is a dangerous precedent.
Talk of previous petitions is a red herring; if they had sufficient support for a mandate the statue would be removed.
Comparisons to Hitler, Stalin statues etc are also a red herring; those statues were emplaced by authoritarian regimes and as soon as people were free to remove them they did. Colston's statue has stood in a democracy for at least a century since mass suffrage and could be removed through the democratic process at any time. They fact that it was not may reflect poorly on Bristol, but it's their choice, that's how democracy works.

Hector Savage

Hector Savage wrote: »

There are no statues of Hitler, nor will there be, no society in their right mind would even consider it.

I would argue that no society in their right mind should have statues that celebrate slave traders. You can argue it was fine at the time but there's no reason we should continue to celebrate them. The description on it was a complete whitewash of who he was and slavery was viewed as morally wrong in 1895 when it was erected...

‘erected by the citizens of Bristol, as a memorial to one of the most virtuous and wise sons of this city’.

Mitch Connor

nullzero wrote: »

You reckon? Really, well good for you.

Protesting against current injustice is always a much more worthy cause than pulling down statues to people who have long since ceased to be relevant. There are people currently being exploited in the UK who deserve to be thought of above someone who died a few hundred years ago.

The statue was taken down during a protest against current injustice.

It doesn't have to be either or.

The BLM movement is about injustices today - the statue is a celebration of a man who inslaved and murdered tens of thousands of that same oppressed group.

How can you celebrate such a man, while striving for equality and justice?

super_furry

Nermal wrote: »

If there were any left, fifteen generations after he breathed his last, would you join a feral baying mob in toppling it?

Maybe. It would depend if it looked like good craic.

Nermal wrote: »

Are the Irish people in the UK entitled to find their nearest statue of Cromwell and tear it down?

Really? I'm sure you're not trying to draw a blatantly false equivalence here. I do however like this little act of defiance.

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/oliver-cromwell-bust-alarm-politician-kept-turning-it-to-face-wall

Nermal wrote: »

Can I, an Irish person, go to the Pitti Palace in Florence and deface Sir Peter Lely's portrait of him - 'warts and all'?

I mean you could try, but again, a picture hanging in a gallery of a different country to the one he subjugated and massacred isn't really the same as being forced to walk past a state-supported memorial to a man who enslaved and killed your ancestors, is it?

RWCNT

nullzero wrote: »

When we see mass protests against modern day slavery we can say the playing field is level on this issue.

There are supposedly 13000 people in the UK affected by modern slavery (a start from 2017) in yet we're not seeing mass protests on the issue.

It's reasonably safe to assume that the majority of people cheering the statue being torn down yesterday have no idea about these issues.

We don't have mass protests specifically against past slavery either, we have protests against institutional racism in general. I'm sure if there was a statue for a modern day slave-trader it would be torn down as well.

I've seen Black Lives Matter pages share the fact from your post I've highlighted in bold along with other things about the money paid by the UK government as compensation to former slave owners and how this was only fully paid back in recent years. You must think it's brilliant that the movement is raising awareness of this and that it falls under their banner.

It's all the same nonsense whataboutery to undermine protests on the assumption that participants are ignorant or don't care about the issues of the present day. You have no idea if they do or not.

Hector Savage wrote: »

No, the slave traders in that case have also brown skin, so shhhhh !! don't talk about it or condemn it RACIST!!!!

This nonsense. Over and over and over again, as if it's funny or clever, like a child. Despite the fact that absolutely nobody is saying this, whatsoever.

nullzero

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The statue was taken down during a protest against current injustice.

It doesn't have to be either or.

The BLM movement is about injustices today - the statue is a celebration of a man who inslaved and murdered tens of thousands of that same oppressed group.

How can you celebrate such a man, while striving for equality and justice?

My point is that slavery still exists and protests directed at ending that could be integrated into the BLM protests. Modern slavery wasn't involved in the thought process of pulling that statue down, it was all about how wonderfully cathartic removing the statue was.

nullzero

RWCNT wrote: »

We don't have mass protests specifically against past slavery either, we have protests against institutional racism in general. I'm sure if there was a statue for a modern day slave-trader it would be torn down as well.

I've seen Black Lives Matter pages share the fact from your post I've highlighted in bold along with other things about the money paid by the UK government as compensation to former slave owners and how this was only fully paid back in recent years. You must think it's brilliant that the movement is raising awareness of this and that it falls under their banner.

It's all the same nonsense whataboutery to undermine protests on the assumption that participants are ignorant or don't care about the issues of the present day. You have no idea if they do or not.

It isn't nonsense or whataboutery.

Modern slavery exists, please explain why a protest about past slavery would be relevant to anything? Also why would a statue be erected to honour a modern day slaver?

We've seen a statue to a man who died centuries ago pulled down because he was involved in slavery, but no mention has been made of people (of all colours as it happens) who are victims of slavery in the modern world.

Mitch Connor

nullzero wrote: »

My point is that slavery still exists and protests directed at ending that could be integrated into the BLM protests. Modern slavery wasn't involved in the thought process of pulling that statue down, it was all about how wonderfully cathartic removing the statue was.

During a BLM protest, a statue celebrating a man who is the personification of Black Lives NOT Mattering was taken down, after years of trying to get it taken down.

If the issue wasn't about modern day slavery, and I don't think it was, so what? So what if it was about not celebrating a man how murdered tens of thousands of black people cause they didn't matter? THe statue is a testament to Black Lives Not Mattering. It is a celebration of that. it is a constant reminder of that.

Even the arguement about democracy deciding the statue should stay, unammended.... So if the society is racist just accept its racist ways. Cool.

robinph

[Deleted User] wrote: »

‘erected by the citizens of Bristol, as a memorial to one of the most virtuous and wise sons of this city’.

There was a far more representative gathering of the population of Bristol dragging the statue through the streets yesterday than the" citizens of Bristol " who paid for it in 1895 were of the population even back then.

super_furry

nullzero wrote: »

We've seen a statue to a man who died centuries ago pulled down because he was involved in slavery, but no mention has been made of people (of all colours as it happens) who are victims of slavery in the modern world.

You know you don't have to protest everything all at once right? It's okay to compartmentalise your anger and grievances and the injustices of the world.

nullzero

Mitch Connor wrote: »

During a BLM protest, a statue celebrating a man who is the personification of Black Lives NOT Mattering was taken down, after years of trying to get it taken down.

If the issue wasn't about modern day slavery, and I don't think it was, so what? So what if it was about not celebrating a man how murdered tens of thousands of black people cause they didn't matter?

Even the arguement about democracy deciding the statue should stay, unammended.... So if the society is racist just accept its racist ways. Cool.

My assertion would be that people being sold into slavery is a bigger injustice than racial discrimination. I am not saying that racial discrimination isn't an important issue, it is just a missed opportunity when taking action against an inanimate object that represents the evils of slavery that the existence of slavery in today's society isn't brought into the discussion.

nullzero

super_furry wrote: »

You know you don't have to protest everything all at once right? It's okay to compartmentalise your anger and grievances and the injustices of the world.

Why not even mention that slavery still exists in the world, and the United Kingdom as it happens when talking about historical slavery?

Truthvader

Nothing like destroying public art to free people

nullzero

Truthvader wrote: »

Nothing like destroying public art to free people

I'm off to the phoenix park to blow up the wellington monument, I'm sure we'll all be better off for it.

super_furry

nullzero wrote: »

Why not even mention that slavery still exists in the world, and the United Kingdom as it happens when talking about historical slavery?

I'd imagine because this was a protest about racism. The statue of a slaver being torn down was a act of protest against racism.

There's overlap there, but the main motivation of the protesters was racism.

RWCNT

nullzero wrote: »

My assertion would be that people being sold into slavery is a bigger injustice than racial discrimination. I am not saying that racial discrimination isn't an important issue, it is just a missed opportunity when taking action against an inanimate object that represents the evils of slavery that the existence of slavery in today's society isn't brought into the discussion.

Ah nice, it's a missed opportunity now, it was hypocrisy a page or two back.

Mitch Connor

nullzero wrote: »

My assertion would be that people being sold into slavery is a bigger injustice than racial discrimination. I am not saying that racial discrimination isn't an important issue, it is just a missed opportunity when taking action against an inanimate object that represents the evils of slavery that the existence of slavery in today's society isn't brought into the discussion.

What protests regarding slavrery have you taken part in this week? If you have not, what protest that you feel is more important than modern day slavery that you have taken part in, this week?

super_furry

Truthvader wrote: »

Nothing like destroying public art to free people

Indeed.

osarusan

The knowledge that their plight has been invoked on an Irish forum to score some cheap internet points will put a lovely spring in the step of these in Algerian slave markets.

nullzero

super_furry wrote: »

I'd imagine because this was a protest about racism. The statue of a slaver being torn down was a act of protest against racism.

There's overlap there, but the main motivation of the protesters was racism.

An overlap? There are people in the United Kingdom today who are victims of modern slavery, their basic human rights are being denied, and nobody felt it even deserved to be mentioned in passing? How many of the protestors yesterday are suffering in that way?

With the amount of media coverage this garnered, not mentioning this issue is a huge missed opportunity. Pulling this statue down has had no practical effect on people's lives, but it could have had if modern slavery had been even mentioned. A huge missed opportunity.

nullzero

RWCNT wrote: »

Ah nice, it's a missed opportunity now, it was hypocrisy a page or two back.

It's both actually.