Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

El_Duderino 09

fly_agaric wrote: »

I doubt there can be any "balanced story" that everyone will accept when it comes to putting up or taking down (or toppling!) statues like many of those in the UK.

The former subject regions/components of the Roman empire are generally quite proud of that history now and spend a lot of time & money preserving what is left of it + show off the remaining monuments & buildings (& even statues, or replicas of them) to tourists. Not veneration perhaps, but there isn't confliction there I think.
...

I learned some of this guy's history since yesterday and I accept the balanced story. It's a great history story. But there's no need to venerate the guy through a statue. I'm perfectly happy with knowing the history.

Rome is different in that I don't think the roman empire exists anymore. So now it's just history rather than having any kind of impact today.

Plus there's the very humam factor that there isn't a strong movement to get rid of roman ststues. The Floyd/BLM movement has a lot of momentum and support right now.

THE_SHEEP

robinph wrote: »

If a statue gets put up for some purpose but a future generation then sees the history of that person through a different lense then that's fine. It will be their city, their statue and their history that they want told.

" Different lense " = " Different agenda " ?

My point being :

A " mob " removes a statue , that was originally erected to honor a guy , who was held in high regard in a city / town . It's later discovered that the guy had a questionable background ( involved in slavery ) . Therefore , on account of this fact , the statue is removed .

The " mob " , now paints murals / pictures ( possible statues in future ) of a guy who is deemed a " martyr ", and is held in high regard in various city's / towns / countries . It has been proven that the guy has a questionable background ( a criminal ) .

These " mobs " really confuse me !!

ancapailldorcha

THE_SHEEP wrote: »

" Different lense " = " Different agenda " ?

My point being :

A " mob " removes a statue , that was originally erected to honor a guy , who was held in high regard in a city / town . It's later discovered that the guy had a questionable background ( involved in slavery ) . Therefore , on account of this fact , the statue is removed .

The " mob " , now paints murals / pictures ( possible statues in future ) of a guy who is deemed a " martyr ", and is held in high regard in various city's / towns / countries . It has been proven that the guy has a questionable background ( a criminal ) .

These " mobs " really confuse me !!

You left out the bit where they lobbied for years to have the thing removed but the local council just couldn't be bothered.

markodaly

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So these things are not the same.

That is semantics if I dare say.

You support one form of mob rule but disagree with another form of mob rule. Classic! Absoltely classic.
*bookmarked*

I think you are confused to be honest, but hey at least we know that you are a hypocrite next time you espouse 'law and order' and due process when some cause of yours comes under threat.

The protrest yesterday was peaceful as far as I know (which is great) and they took down a statue which I think should have been done long ago (which is also great).

Yea, peaceful apart from damage to public property. (Nevermind the chaos in London which left police officers hospitalised).

At least you own it now, you think mob rule is great.

So yeah, yesterday's protest was great.

I am glad you think that damaging public protest is 'great'.

Now tell me, do you also think damaging the statue of Ghandi in D.C was also great? That too was mob rule.

Nermal

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Exactly. So the obvious solution

The obvious solution would be a police force that doesn't retreat in the face of a mob.

robinph wrote: »

What was damaged other than a lump of bronze and the feelings of some old rich white guys?

robinph wrote: »

The rich old white guys who have objected to the rewriting of the plaque and used to hold the processions through the city honoring Colston. Can't be certain they are all rich old white guys, but would be surprised if they were not.

Do you make a habit of using the words 'rich old white guys' as if they were pejorative?

Yellow_Fern

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Complaining about whataboutery but failing to mention Europe. Hmmmm...

Slavery was endemic in Europe.
Who do you think rowed all those galleys so beloved of Louis XVI?
I'll give you a clue - an awful lot of them were French.

What's your point?

We are talking about an English man who made his considerable fortune from a)the transportation and sale of Africans into slavery.
b)the processing of crops grown and harvested by African slaves in the West Indies.

And whether the current inhabitants of the city of his birth feel he should be honoured with a monument.

Do you want to have a general thread about slavery throughout the ages and how different cultures viewed it? While also complaining about whataboutery....

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes. I do.
And like all historians I will point you to where you can do your own research and thereby take control of your own education.

We'll start with the big three of the Triangular Trade shall we?

The British
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-transatlantic-slave-trade-records/

The Spanish in South America, and the Asiento

http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/obra-visor/historia-general-de-chile-tomo-cuarto--0/html/ff2f1efc-82b1-11df-acc7-002185ce6064_69.html#I_15_

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1349550/

The Dutch

http://www.ethesis.net/wic/wic_inhoud.htm

https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/handle/1887/4734

https://books.google.ie/books?id=HGoyvMF7xw8C&redir_esc=y

Enjoy!

Yes we know that Europe was involved but none of that shows the economies of Europe were based on slavery. Come on you made the claim. Show us the evidence.

Slavery occurred in Europe and Europeans were heavily involved in it overseas but Europe was also the first part of the world with a sustained ban on the practise. Europe led the way against slavery.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Perhaps they are patriotic Welsh people objecting to not being represented on their national fleg?

They wouldn't do that in a foreign terrority which is what London would be considered. Welsh liberation activity has been confied to Wales.

Bannasidhe

markodaly wrote: »

Slavery was endemic in all parts of the world at one time or another.
Be is the Egyptians, the older Chinese civilisations, the Aztecs or Incas, the Arab world (argubaly the largest slavers in history), Africa and of course Europe.

Slavery has been with humans since the dawn of time in one form or another. I know some like to try and tell us that Europeans invented the notion, as it makes them feel good about humanity as a whole, but its simply not true.

Who said any different? I certainly didn't. I seem to remember making a reference to other ages and cultures...

Ah yes, here is a bit of my post you didn't quote

Do you want to have a general thread about slavery throughout the ages and how different cultures viewed it

Do you also want to have a general thread about slavery throughout the ages and how different cultures viewed it??

Or shall we stick to the topic which is an Englishman who... ah sure I already said that didn't I.... In that post you didn't quote all of.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Who here has claimed that Europeans invented slavery?

Probably me, even though I said no such thing.

It's very important that whatabout whatabout whatabout is included when we are talking about a specific aspect of the Triangular Trade.
I mean those Ottoman Turks - did you know they actually had white slaves!

And a guy named Morat Rais slave raided Baltimore in West Cork in 1631!!

...Ok so he was actually a Dutch convert to Islam originally named Jan Jansen who had been a slave himself and the slaves he took were English colonists... but whatabout that! Muslims!!

markodaly

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Who here has claimed that Europeans invented slavery?

The statement was, 'Slavery is endemic in Europe'.... but what was left out was, 'Slavery is endemic in [everywhere/the world].

Ommiting pertinent key facts can create a false narrative.

Oh and yes, slavery existed in Ireland, practicsed by Irish people who enslaved other Irish people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Ireland

GreeBo

Mitch Connor wrote: »

"bad" in quotes. Slavery and responsibility for mass murder.

Are you going to address the point I raised?
How many people are there who have nothing in their past that would now be considered "offensive" or "bad"?

Like it or not, slavery was a thing during a period of world history.

Bannasidhe

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You left out the bit where they lobbied for years to have the thing removed but the local council just couldn't be bothered.

And the bit that it wasn't 'later discovered' about how he made his money.

ancapailldorcha

markodaly wrote: »

The statement was, 'Slavery is endemic in Europe'.... but what was left out was, 'Slavery is endemic in [everywhere/the world].

Ommiting pertinent key facts can create a false narrative.

Oh and yes, slavery existed in Ireland, practicsed by Irish people who enslaved other Irish people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Ireland

You were saying that there were people claiming Europeans invented slavery. I haven't seen anyone here make that claim.

markodaly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Or shall we stick to the topic which is an Englishman who... ah sure I already said that didn't I.... In that post you didn't quote all of.

Well, that is fine. Although you are doing history by numbers really if you want to focus on one man, in one city, at one time, living on one continent during a particular era.

By all means create this general thread, as i would be more interesting than a lot of what is being written here.

...Ok so he was actually a Dutch convert to Islam originally named Jan Jansen who had been a slave himself and the slaves he took were English colonists... but whatabout that! Muslims!!

As I said, history/painting by numbers.

Bannasidhe

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Yes we know that Europe was involved but none of that shows the economies of Europe were based on slavery. Come on you made the claim. Show us the evidence.

Slavery occurred in Europe and Europeans were heavily involved in it overseas but Europe was also the first part of the world with a sustained ban on the practise. Europe led the way against slavery.



They wouldn't do that in a foreign terrority which is what London would be considered. Welsh liberation activity has been confied to Wales.

No sweetie. You have to actually read the documents for yourself. I can't do your learning for you. Just guide you to the water. It's up to you if you want to drink or not.

Follow the money my dear. Follow the money and see where it ended up.
hint - it wasn't just Bristol.

I see my point about the Welsh flag went over your head. Wales isn't represented on the Union Jack so a Welsh person who was proud to be British and part of the United Kingdom could be upset by that.

Edgware

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Problem is with a lot of young people is that they're very good at protesting but not so good at voting.

Millennials didn't turn out at elections for Brexit, Corbyn, Clinton in 2016, Bernie lost the 2020 primaries to Biden because his voters didn't show up.

Change isn't won through protests, facebook campaigns and hashtags but at the ballot box and young people don't show up. Their voting rates continue to be utterly terrible.

Most of those gob****es think voting is like text voting for the X Factor

markodaly

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You were saying that there were people claiming Europeans invented slavery. I haven't seen anyone here make that claim.

Why did one make a statement like that?

You may as well say, 'Prostitution is endemic in Europe' or 'Road Traffic accidents are endemic in Europe'.

All true, expect that these things are endemic everywhere!

Put it this way, if I said Terrorism and violence is endemic in the Middle East, would that be a true statement?
Yes, but I am sure you or someone would come along and correct me (rightly) by saying terrorism and violence exists, in some forms pretty much everywhere.
Or would that be whataboutery :rolleyes:

Edgware

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Bannasidhe wrote: »

Perhaps they are patriotic Welsh people objecting to not being represented on their national fleg?

Haven't they some sheep they could be "taking care of"?

markodaly

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You left out the bit where they lobbied for years to have the thing removed but the local council just couldn't be bothered.

For someone who is acting as a judge on what is the truth, this statement is incorrect, both in spirit and factually.

El_Duderino 09

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Now it's not just the people of Bristol and a few historians who know about him.
I call that job well done.

Living history.

Yeah absolutely plus the broader history that towns like Bristol had benefactors like this guy, is interesting history. I didnt know that kind of thing happened where a wealthy native might fund hospitals and schools and almshouses and theatres. And I didn't know that they might only welcome people who agreed with their religious and political views, to use those faculties. That's all great history and I'm happier for knowing a out it.

Gradius

Gradius wrote: »

You would think these people would be more interested in abolishing actual current day slavery rather than some dudes statue centuries ago.

But they are not, I presume, because breaking stuff of no significance is..

1) Trendy
2) Easy

It's an interesting map above when you consider where righteous protests take place, which also happen to be the same places targeted for outrage.

markodaly wrote: »

The statement was, 'Slavery is endemic in Europe'.... but what was left out was, 'Slavery is endemic in [everywhere/the world].

Ommiting pertinent key facts can create a false narrative.

Oh and yes, slavery existed in Ireland, practicsed by Irish people who enslaved other Irish people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Ireland

I quoted myself from earlier. As can be seen from the map above, slavery is widespread, right now.

But these people are concerned about pulling down a statue of some bloke from centuries before, based on their offence of slavery before, all while slavery is still pumping along in countries OTHER THAN the countries they are marching around and rioting within.

Here's the conclusion; they don't actually care about anything. They are a bunch of people with empty lives, nothing to do, and all day to do it. Wanton destruction and disruption to fill the void, with a nice slice of virtuous signalling on social media thrown in.

Brats, in other words.

Tokyo

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

But then I'm a literate, and thinking person, not an under-employed member of the perpetually offended class.

Different for you, is it ?

Mod: @Lefty Bicek - take 24 hours away from the thread.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

What are they even protesting for? In the UK last year only TWO unarmed people were killed, one was the London Bridge terrorist.

Absolute degenerates.

Bannasidhe

markodaly wrote: »

Well, that is fine. Although you are doing history by numbers really if you want to focus on one man, in one city, at one time, living on one continent during a particular era.

By all means create this general thread, as i would be more interesting than a lot of what is being written here.



As I said, history/painting by numbers.

I didn't start this thread so all I am doing is trying to stay on topic. If you have an issue with this thread just focusing on one man, in one city etc etc take it up with the OP.


Why don't you start the thread since you are the one who wishes to discuss slavery in general across the ages and the globe? I have a fairly good knowledge of the topic already so unless you get some heavy hitting historians in there I'll give it a miss.

One has to paint it by numbers when people want to be spoon fed even though the information has been put before them - all they need to do it read it for themselves.
No, folks want someone else to do the heavy reading and present them with factoid soundbites.

It's a sad indictment of our instant gratification world but what can we do eh Mark? Everyone thinks they are an expert in an age when actual expertise is mocked.

El_Duderino 09

markodaly wrote: »

That is semantics if I dare say.

Ha. No. The difference between that thread which proposed violent vigilante mobs to beat and hang people they thought might be criminals, and yesterday's protests, is not semantic.

You may dare to say it, but you'd be wrong. You know the difference between yesterday's peaceful protest in Bristol and violent vigilante mobs to beat and hang people they thought might be criminals. Yesterday's protest was great. Great result and peaceful to boot.

Truthvader

March tonight!

Time to destroy the Clifton Suspension Bridge.

Brunel employed over 1000 Engineers assistants and labourers on his so called "great bridge"

How many wimmin???

None. That's how many. The dirty sexist bastard.

Well I'm outraged. Join me tonight and bring tools and weapons lets rid the world of this monument to sexism forever etc etc

Tune in tomorrow for next weeks "Burn the SS Great Britain" street protest

mick087

Hunky Monster wrote: »

What are they even protesting for? In the UK last year only TWO unarmed people were killed, one was the London Bridge terrorist.

Absolute degenerates.

Its about change having little money little education no real future its about a better future with a voice respect and dignity.

markodaly

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ha. No. The difference...

The difference is, you approve of one mob rule and disagree with another.
Bascily your core beliefs are transient and movable, to the point you dont really have them. It is now clear.

Yesterday's protest was great. Great result and peaceful to boot.

I see you didnt answer my question.

Do you also think it was 'great' that mob rule vandalised a statue of Gandhi?

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

mick087 wrote: »

Its about change having little money little education no real future its about a better future with a voice respect and dignity.

Oh right, you could have just said white privilege.

I'm out. That's up there with the gender wage gap and flat earth theory.

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

The difference is, you approve of one mob rule and disagree with another.
Bascily your core beliefs are transient and movable, to the point you dont really have them. It is now clear.



I see you didnt answer my question.

Do you also think it was 'great' that mob rule vandalised a statue of Gandhi?

Never knew the Gandhi fella made his money on slavery.

mick087

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Oh right, you could have just said white privilege.

I'm out. That's up there with the gender wage gap and flat earth theory.

I would not agree on the white privilege quote being used.

fly_agaric

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I learned some of this guy's history since yesterday and I accept the balanced story. It's a great history story. But there's no need to venerate the guy through a statue. I'm perfectly happy with knowing the history.

Agree. I've no dog in this fight anyway.
I'm not English or British + don't live there.
Old statues of slave traders are not really something I'd be in favour of retaining in Dublin (where I do live). I'm also not a fan of any sort of iconoclasm (e.g. to take a local one, don't think Wellington Monument in the Phoenix Park here should be dynamited because of who it "venerates"). There's a whiff of the red guards or the like off it which is more disturbing than the monuments IMO.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Plus there's the very humam factor that there isn't a strong movement to get rid of roman ststues.

On this one as I pointed out there is a fairly big movement in the muslim world which has that as a core position (the pre muslim history needs to be erased incl. roman ruins). It is not a majority position, but it had enough weight of money & people & guns behind it to briefly establish a new state in the ME a few years ago.