Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

Junkyard Tom

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Would you listen to yourself?

Ignore.

Never wrestle with pig, you'll both get dirty but the pig will enjoy it.

El_Duderino 09

Cupatae wrote: »

What about the ghandi and Churchill ones , what's the excuse there

Just caught up a bit on gandhi in the last few minutes. He trained as a lawyer in London, then spend a few years in South Africa. He completely bought into the anti black racism.

When he was there, thre were two queues for official things (post offices for example) one queue for whites and one for everyone else. His first achievement was to create a third queue for Indians so they didn't have to share a queue with black people. He said they were savages and Indians were superior to them.

When Santa was doing up his annual Naughty vs Nice ledger for Gandhi, that behaviour went in the naughty side.

Yeah gandhi was a big racist amongst all the other things he did. I suppose that makes him fair game for further discussion of his whole history rather than just the good bits like liberating India and saying snarky things about Britain.

None of his history is irrelevant. It's all valid. Hope that answers your question.

THE_SHEEP

robinph wrote: »

None of the locals commenting on the Bristol Council Facebook page seem particularly upset about the statue coming down and pretty much universal support for their collecting the placards for then sticking in the museum when the get round to fishing it out of the harbour.

The only anti comments are on the post from the mayor, but that's down to him not being from their preferred political party.

The locals are happy to see the back of the statue and don't have much of an issue with how it came about.

These aren't the same " locals " that were part off / organized the " angry mob " , by any chance ?

ancapailldorcha

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

You are literally inventing stuff. I said it possible that such women volunteered (people have volunteered for far less) and slave owners were capable of kindness. People are not black and white. Those who show the greatest evil can also show kindness. Hitler was known to show kind streaks to secretaries and his dog. I can't believe I have to say this.

In my opinion, there never was a more kind, noble, candid, Christian man than William Ford. The influences and associations that had always surrounded him, blinded him to the inherent wrong at the bottom of the system of Slavery.

Solomon Northup describing William Ford the charactor depicted by Benedict Cumberbatch in 12 Years a slave in memoir by the same name.

You're lucky enough to be engaging with an actual historian and you post like this.

Sand

It's ironic to see historical figures re-examined and challenged in the wake of the (wrongful) killing of a convicted armed robber high on fentanyl.

Nermal

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Since apparently all protests are mob actions and we should shun them utterly surely women should say no, voting isn't for me because violent female mobs chained themselves to things and flung themselves under the king's horse at Epsom startling the poor thing.

As for Irish independence... there was a lot of armed mob action involved in that so hoist the Union Jack.

Twaddle. Are any of the people who pushed the statue into the river being denied the franchise? Are they expelling a colonial oppressor from their land?

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Follow the money my dear. Follow the money and see where it ended up.
hint - it wasn't just Bristol.

At the height of the Golden Age, 5% of Dutch GDP was attributable to slavery. No European economy has been 'based on slavery' since the Romans.

lawrencesummers

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

White washing history is wrong...statues of people who achieved great things during their life's that were erected in good faith should still stand...

Churchill hated the Irish, I have no problem with his statue because his attitudes towards the Irish are acknowledged to be unacceptable in today's world. But during this time he was also the Prime Minister of Britain and they played a role in the destruction of Nazi Germany...

It's like the nonsense of going back through famous peoples Twitter to find dirt to throw at them

Did the same with Franco's body in Spain...and it's only helped the right gain more support

Il just leave this here....

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/church-of-england-says-irish-phrase-on-gravestone-must-have-translation-1003064.html

THE_SHEEP

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You left out the bit where they lobbied for years to have the thing removed but the local council just couldn't be bothered.

So , this gives people justification to form an " angry mob " , flout Covid 19 restrictions and break the law / commit unlawful acts as well .

???????????????

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Sand wrote: »

It's ironic to see historical figures re-examined and challenged in the wake of the (wrongful) killing of a convicted armed robber high on fentanyl.

I’m not seeing the irony here.

Sand

Regarding the surgery without anesthesia in the 1840s, wasn't this largely the norm? Medicinal anaesthetics were only invented in the mid-late 1840s to my knowledge. Before that patients were either incapacitated with alcohol, opium or a blow to the head. None of which were truly effective, and all were dangerous.

ancapailldorcha

THE_SHEEP wrote: »

So , this gives people justification to form an " angry mob " , flout Covid 19 restrictions and break the law / commit unlawful acts as well .

???????????????

Did I say that?

Junkyard Tom

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

you post like this.

It's designed to frustrate people by tying them up in detailed deconstruction of bad-faith posting or to illicit a reaction that attracts sanction.

robinph

THE_SHEEP wrote: »

These aren't the same " locals " that were part off / organized the " angry mob " , by any chance ?

Following the local councils Facebook page? Doubtful.

ancapailldorcha

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's designed to frustrate people by tying them up in detailed deconstruction of bad-faith posting or to illicit a reaction that attracts sanction.

Yep. It's why I should know better than to post in these threads. Like, there's people here defending a slaver FFS.

Still though, I did learn a bit at least.

Sand

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Like, there's people here defending a slaver FFS.

Its a crazy world - global media has spent the past few weeks beatifying an armed robber.

nullzero

robinph wrote: »

None of the locals commenting on the Bristol Council Facebook page seem particularly upset about the statue coming down and pretty much universal support for their collecting the placards for then sticking in the museum when the get round to fishing it out of the harbour.

The only anti comments are on the post from the mayor, but that's down to him not being from their preferred political party.

The locals are happy to see the back of the statue and don't have much of an issue with how it came about.

So the ends justify the means...

Sand

Sand wrote: »

Its a crazy world - global media has spent the past few weeks beatifying an armed robber.

A man who was killed as a result of police brutality, one of many? A systemic issue that arises pretty much every year. I think you're missing the point of why the case has such attention. The circumstances of his death are far more relevant than crimes he committed.

ancapailldorcha

Sand wrote: »

Its a crazy world - global media has spent the past few weeks beatifying an armed robber.

I don't think they have but the nature of Floyd's arrest and death does seem to have been skimmed over.

Sand

Deleted User wrote: »

A man who was killed as a result of police brutality, one of many?

A man who held a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach while carrying out a home invasion? Give me a break.

Alrigghtythen

Sand wrote: »

A man who held a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach while carrying out a home invasion? Give me a break.

We're probably better off without the likes of him

nullzero

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

We're probably better off without the likes of him

Careful now.

robinph

The local news just spent their whole half hour covering the statue. But in their efforts to be balanced the best person they could find to speak against the statue coming down was some kid who said nothing more than everybody needs to calm down a bit, but even saying that sentence was a challenge for him.

The mayor was clearly looking tired and frustrated when he appeared, he'd been asked some stupid questions 10 minutes before on the other local news channel and looked to be ready for an argument. His day is far from over as he's presumably got the 10pm news cycle to go through yet as well.

Junkyard Tom

For those interested there's a good series of videos here on how bad-faith 'debating' is employed to frustrate people.

robinph

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think the Floyd/BLM movements of 2020 will be remembered by the same kind of people who care about history today.

But ultimately you're right. It depends on how big the Floyd/BLM movement gets and how much of a cultural turning point it becomes. The Colston statue might not be remembered but it is a part of the story of the movement.

Doubt that Colston will get more than a passing mention in the current worldwide protests, if it does then the protests will have failed if a statue getting pulled down is the most significant change.

It is however a very significant change in Bristol and whilst its been rumbling on for years to get his glorification within the city changed, this is going to be the spark to finally makes the changes happen more widely. There is the chance for lots of other history to now be told within the city as things get renamed after multiple different people.

El_Duderino 09

robinph wrote: »

Doubt that Colston will get more than a passing mention in the current worldwide protests, if it does then the protests will have failed if a statue getting pulled down is the most significant change.

It is however a very significant change in Bristol and whilst its been rumbling on for years to get his glorification within the city changed, this is going to be the spark to finally makes the changes happen more widely. There is the chance for lots of other history to now be told within the city as things get renamed after multiple different people.

Yeah this single statue is unlikely to be remembered outside of Bristol and academics. The impact of councils choosing to taking down similar statues might be the real legasy.

suicide_circus

robinph wrote: »

There is the chance for lots of other history to now be told within the city as things get renamed after multiple different people.

Let's hope it's all squeaky clean.

El_Duderino 09

suicide_circus wrote: »

Let's hope it's all squeaky clean.

Or it might be clean by today's standards and as we find out more and grow as a society, those people might be replaced too. And thats grand, isn't it?

Nermal

robinph wrote: »

But in their efforts to be balanced the best person they could find to speak against the statue coming down was some kid who said nothing more than everybody needs to calm down a bit, but even saying that sentence was a challenge for him.

Yes, what a surprise that there isn't a queue around the block of people willing to risk their careers, health and very possibly lives to stand up to a bunch of vandals.

Nermal

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Would you listen to yourself?

Black women in the 1840s had no rights. They could not 'give consent' as they were not considered fully human. Do you not understand that? Legally they were unable to give consent so why would he even bother asking?
He experimented on them.
Without even basic anesthetic - how do we know? Anesthetic were rare and not very effective.
He used these women as guinea pigs.

Rabble rabble rabble. This chap used a farm boy as a guinea pig. When is it his turn?

robinph

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah this single statue is unlikely to be remembered outside of Bristol and academics. The impact of councils choosing to taking down similar statues might be the real legasy.

It was noticeable yesterday evening as things were just happening how the BBC News reporter in the studio changed their description multiple times within the space of an hour and a half. Started off saying a statue had been pulled down, that became a statue of Edward Colston, which then became Edward Colston the philanthropist, which then became Edward Colston the philanthropist and slave trader, which then became slave trader and philanthropist and finally just slave trader.

You could virtually hear the cogs whirring in the brain of some researcher desperately trying to figure out who on earth this guy was and what reason Bristol had for having named half the city after him and shouting new descriptions to the presenter every couple of minutes. The presenter being equally clueless as to why one moment there was a statue of a noble person from Bristol being pulled down and a couple of minutes later it was some despicable slave trader he was describing the video clips of.

Bristol knows who he was and is delighted that his statue is now gone. We're embarrassed that it took us so long to do something about it and made the city a news item around the world.