Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

olestoepoke

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

No, he was not.

Are you sure about that? His diaries say otherwise. Heres a line from one of his poems "Little Lad of the Tricks…Raise your comely head till I kiss your mouth:If either of us is the better of that I am the better of it. There is a fragrance in your kiss that I have not found yet in the kisses of women."

Nermal

Nermal wrote: »

Rabble rabble rabble. This chap used a farm boy as a guinea pig. When is it his turn?

The women received surgical procedures for 4 years. One had surgery over 30 times. While you can certainly question Jenner's ethics. 4 years of using slaves as Guinea pigs for surgical procedures is horrifying..

robinph

Nermal wrote: »

Yes, what a surprise that there isn't a queue around the block of people willing to risk their careers, health and very possibly lives to stand up to a bunch of vandals.

The local news was live from the plinth this evening. Nothing more than a handful of curious passers-by hanging around to watch. This vengeful mob of vandals doesn't exist except in your imagination.

suicide_circus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Or it might be clean by today's standards and as we find out more and grow as a society, those people might be replaced too. And thats grand, isn't it?

sure whatever gets ye out of bed in the morning

Galwayguy35

olestoepoke wrote: »

Are you sure about that? His diaries say otherwise. Heres a line from one of his poems "Little Lad of the Tricks…Raise your comely head till I kiss your mouth:If either of us is the better of that I am the better of it. There is a fragrance in your kiss that I have not found yet in the kisses of women."

I thought the rumour was that he was gay.

CrankyHaus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Just caught up a bit on gandhi in the last few minutes. He trained as a lawyer in London, then spend a few years in South Africa. He completely bought into the anti black racism.

When he was there, thre were two queues for official things (post offices for example) one queue for whites and one for everyone else. His first achievement was to create a third queue for Indians so they didn't have to share a queue with black people. He said they were savages and Indians were superior to them.

When Santa was doing up his annual Naughty vs Nice ledger for Gandhi, that behaviour went in the naughty side.

Yeah gandhi was a big racist amongst all the other things he did. I suppose that makes him fair game for further discussion of his whole history rather than just the good bits like liberating India and saying snarky things about Britain.

None of his history is irrelevant. It's all valid. Hope that answers your question.

He also wrote the "Dear Friend" letters to Hitler and met Mussolini.
While they've aged poorly they seem to have been based on a genuine desire for peace and a naiviete about the dictators that is understandable in the context, but doesn't stop defenders of the British Empire from using them against him (see also: Dev's condolences on the death of Hitler).
Nonetheless his overall achievements were enormous and it would be sad to see an unnuanced rewriting of history to permanently poison the popular opinion of him.
Desecrating his statue was disgraceful, and will simply drive more floating voters towards Trump; Indian-Americans in particular.

Nermal

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/local-hubs/shrewsbury/2020/06/08/hundreds-sign-petition-to-remove-clive-of-india-statue-from-shrewsbury-square/

"Just because a figure is historical, that doesn’t make him good" - Jake Thompson, local cretin.

Clive's statue may only briefly outlive his tortoise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adwaita

What a dull world it will be when only 'good' things are left.

CrankyHaus

Nermal wrote: »

https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/local-hubs/shrewsbury/2020/06/08/hundreds-sign-petition-to-remove-clive-of-india-statue-from-shrewsbury-square/
.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adwaita

What a dull world it will be when only 'good' things are left.

I agree with this. For instance the Sean Russell statue is a useful reminder of a time when "England's difficulty was Ireland's opportunity" was taken to it's extreme. The very fact that it is even there is an insight into mid 20th century Irish values that no book could replicate the impact of. Every time Shinnerbots online go on about "Blueshirts" it's a good reminder of the far less clear cut historical reality, when elements of both sides of Irish politics had shameful connections to Fascism.
All that from a monument that thousands pass every day.
Plus, it's just a statue that generally improves Fairview Park.
It would be a loss if a mob toppled it.

Icepick

Gradius wrote: »

You would think these people would be more interested in abolishing actual current day slavery rather than some dudes statue centuries ago.

But they are not, I presume, because breaking stuff of no significance is..

1) Trendy
2) Easy

It's an interesting map above when you consider where righteous protests take place, which also happen to be the same places targeted for outrage.

How do you know they are not?
How have you contributed?

thecretinhop

well said gradius. Hillary Clinton and joe duffy love in sam power turned libya into a slave state again. how bout we take back her honory degrees??

FVP3

olestoepoke wrote: »

Are you sure about that? His diaries say otherwise. Heres a line from one of his poems "Little Lad of the Tricks…Raise your comely head till I kiss your mouth:If either of us is the better of that I am the better of it. There is a fragrance in your kiss that I have not found yet in the kisses of women."

No evidence of any abuse though, so removing the statue is unlikely. You are welcome to get a mob together to give it a go.

Junkyard Tom

CrankyHaus wrote: »

For instance the Sean Russell statue..

The Germans were Britain's enemy, not Ireland's, and Sean Russel died in 1940. At that time the Americans hadn't even declared war on Germany yet we have Irish people who have seem to get their cues from black-and-white British war movies and poppy-pushing plonkers.

FVP3

thecretinhop wrote: »

well said gradius. Hillary Clinton and joe duffy love in sam power turned libya into a slave state again. how bout we take back her honory degrees??

We will wait 200 years, no doubt.

CrankyHaus

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Germans were Britain's enemy, not Ireland's, and Sean Russel died in 1940. At that time the Americans hadn't even declared war on Germany yet we have Irish people who have seem to get their cues from black-and-white British war movies and poppy-pushing plonkers.

Kristallnacht had already happened.
Concentration camps had been in existence for years.
Franco had crushed the Republic with the assistance of Nazi Germany.
Czechoslovakia, Poland, Norway and France had been invaded.
I don't know if the last part of your post is supposed to be a reference to me.
FWIW I agree about simplistic narratives, but if a precedent of mobs toppling statues is set then Seanie's will be among the first to go. Good luck trying to oppose it without being tarred as a Nazi.

El_Duderino 09

suicide_circus wrote: »

sure whatever gets ye out of bed in the morning

Ah now. I thought you were playing devil's advocate, trying to view the situation from all angles. That angle isn't worth considering or what's the story?

suicide_circus

i honest to god dont have the energy

El_Duderino 09

CrankyHaus wrote: »

...it would be sad to see an unnuanced rewriting of history to permanently poison the popular opinion of him.
Desecrating his statue was disgraceful, and will simply drive more floating voters towards Trump; Indian-Americans in particular.

Well the common understanding that he's a great guy who liberated India through passive resistance and Hinduism, is unnuanced. I would prefer to know the full they th that he was a racist and a lot of other things, both good and bad - because he's a real person. I'd prefer to know the truth rather than the unnuanced whitewash which we usually have.

I don't control what other people learn about him or what impact thank knowledge has on them or their voting preference.

El_Duderino 09

suicide_circus wrote: »

i honest to god dont have the energy

Nor the interest, I'd bet.

Now, if I had a mad theory on why it's such a terrible thing, then I think you'd have the energy and Interest.

CrankyHaus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well the common understanding that he's a great guy who liberated India through passive resistance and Hinduism, is unnuanced. I would prefer to know the full they th that he was a racist and a lot of other things, both good and bad - because he's a real person. I'd prefer to know the truth rather than the unnuanced whitewash which we usually have.

I don't control what other people learn about him or what impact thank knowledge has on them or their voting preference.

Well you could find all that out before now. Nobody's keeping the information secret. We're not banning books....yet.
If you rely on the weekly outrage cycle to find out more about the world you're unlikely to get a nuanced understanding of anything.

El_Duderino 09

FVP3 wrote: »

No evidence of any abuse though, so removing the statue is unlikely. You are welcome to get a mob together to give it a go.

Yeah that is a pretty suggestive poem. But, it's not proof of anything. Any accusation of that seriousness should be investigated but that's pretty hard to do that so far removed from the time.

El_Duderino 09

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Well you could find all that out before now. Nobody's keeping the information secret. We're not banning books....yet.
If you rely on the weekly outrage cycle to find out more about the world you're unlikely to get a nuanced understanding of anything.

Wel the weekly outrage cycle has caused me to look into Colston and Gandhi, and find out about them (good and bad). So I'm doing reasonably well out of it.

Gandhi was part of instituting anti-black racism in south Africa. That's pretty big news to me and really does cast him in a different light than simply the liberator of India.

iamstop

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

It's like the nonsense of going back through famous peoples Twitter to find dirt to throw at them

Looool, keyboard warrior antics on twitter are now the same as trading in slaves?

From wikipedia:
During Colston's involvement with the Royal African Company from 1680 to 1692 it is estimated that the company transported around 84,000 African men, women and children, who had been traded as slaves in West Africa, to the Caribbean and the rest of the Americas, of whom 19,000 died on their journey.[9]

19,000 died and this is somehow similar to digging out a few old tweets to throw shade on a celeb? Please sign me up to your news letter.

c.p.w.g.w

Nermal wrote: »

Rabble rabble rabble. This chap used a farm boy as a guinea pig. When is it his turn?

The lad who played a role in the vaccine of Smallpox...they'll never

olestoepoke

FVP3 wrote: »

No evidence of any abuse though, so removing the statue is unlikely. You are welcome to get a mob together to give it a go.

No thanks.

4068ac1elhodqr

Doesn't the uk currently have a modern-day slave issue by the way of 'domestic servants' (nannies and cleaners).
Often these are relatives of other lower-class systems brought over on temp/student/holiday visaas from SE Asia to serve richer SE Asians in britian.

e.g. Pakistan, India, Bangledesh etc.

CrankyHaus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Wel the weekly outrage cycle has caused me to look into Colston and Gandhi, and find out about them (good and bad). So I'm doing reasonably well out of it.

You seem like a cool dude and I'm not trying to be arsey, but you're not doing well out of it: see below.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Gandhi was part of instituting anti-black racism in south Africa. That's pretty big news to me and really does cast him in a different light than simply the liberator of India.

That would be a major misconception. Racism was baked in to the structure there long before Gandhi arrived, as it was all over the Empire. Apartheid was coming regardless of anything Gandhi did. He faced the challenge of operating within, subjugated by, and being educated in, this racist system and his comments have to be seen in this light. His views also evolved in line with his experiences, such as his experiences with a mixed race medical unit in the Zulu war, and he was honoured by the ANC after it came to power in the 1990s.

Edgware

olestoepoke wrote: »

Are you sure about that? His diaries say otherwise. Heres a line from one of his poems "Little Lad of the Tricks…Raise your comely head till I kiss your mouth:If either of us is the better of that I am the better of it. There is a fragrance in your kiss that I have not found yet in the kisses of women."

Ooooh Matron!

c.p.w.g.w

iamstop wrote: »

Looool, keyboard warrior antics on twitter are now the same as trading in slaves?

From wikipedia:
During Colston's involvement with the Royal African Company from 1680 to 1692 it is estimated that the company transported around 84,000 African men, women and children, who had been traded as slaves in West Africa, to the Caribbean and the rest of the Americas, of whom 19,000 died on their journey.[9]

19,000 died and this is somehow similar to digging out a few old tweets to throw shade on a celeb? Please sign me up to your news letter.

No, judging peoples past actions by today's standards and how that is stupid...was my point but obviously you missed that

Slavery wasn't good, but at the time it was perfectly legal...its like judging smokers in the 30's/40's the same as we do today, people of the 30's/40's had no idea how bad smoking was, whereas today the ill effects of smoking are well known

Junkyard Tom

I think it's important to note that the problem wasn't with the statue in and of itself, but with its location and the lack of action from the appropriate channels. Often people are told to seek change via the 'appropriate channels' exactly because they can be frustrated there.

c.p.w.g.w

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think it's important to note that the problem wasn't with the statue in and of itself, but with its location and the lack of action from the appropriate channels. Often people are told to seek change via the 'appropriate channels' exactly because they can be frustrated there.

So if you don't get what you want...just commit crime to get your way