Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

irishguitarlad

I don't agree with it as it sets a dangerous precedent, but didn't the people of Bristol want it taken down and the authorities did nothing for years?

ancapailldorcha

irishguitarlad wrote: »

I don't agree with it as it sets a dangerous precedent, but didn't the people of Bristol want it taken down and the authorities did nothing for years?

Exactly right.

Oxter

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

80 slave owners, so Ireland not quite an economy based on slavery then?

Ireland finally abolished slavery in 1995 when the Magdalen Laundries were shut down.

Yellow_Fern

growleaves wrote: »

I haven't been following this discussion but the legacy of Anglo-Irish slaveholders isn't our problem. We exited the British Empire 100 years ago.

Hamiltons are a prominent family in the British peerage, i.e. upper-class. Look at Burke's peerage.

Sure, but I would go a lot further and say that although English aristocrats made money in slavery, the UK's economy was not mostly built on slaves. It would be have been a small percent. In contrast in the Anglo Saxon period when 1 in 10 were slaves it may have been a decent % percent of GDP. Also I guarantee you that people in a few years will try to make the claim that Ireland's wealth is based on slavery money.

Bannasidhe

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

80 slave owners, so Ireland not quite an economy based on slavery then?

Ireland wasn't even a country - it's economy was part of the economy of the United Kingdom.

But you know that having done your reading on the economies of the British, Dutch and Spanish empires and how they benefited from the Slave Trade.

You have done that haven't you?

Or are you just here to tell us about happy slaves and women volunteering for multiple surgical procedures without anesthetic or sanitary conditions seeing as you appear to have extensive knowledge of medical practices in the mid 1800s?

CrankyHaus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ireland wasn't even a country - it's economy was part of the economy of the United Kingdom.

But you know that having done your reading on the economies of the British, Dutch and Spanish empires and how they benefited from the Slave Trade.

You have done that haven't you?

Or are you just here to tell us about happy slaves and women volunteering for multiple surgical procedures without anesthetic or sanitary conditions seeing as you appear to have extensive knowledge of medical practices in the mid 1800s?

So what's your argument?
That it's our fault that the people who colonised us and subjugated us with discrimnatory penal laws kept some slaves?

Head over to Xinjiang and tell the Uighers to atone for China's oppression in Tibet and see how far that gets you.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ireland wasn't even a country - it's economy was part of the economy of the United Kingdom.

But you know that having done your reading on the economies of the British, Dutch and Spanish empires and how they benefited from the Slave Trade.

You have done that haven't you?

Or are you just here to tell us about happy slaves and women volunteering for multiple surgical procedures without anesthetic or sanitary conditions seeing as you appear to have extensive knowledge of medical practices in the mid 1800s?

Also some of our ports would have been significantly involved in the slave trade if I recall correctly?

In relation to the surgery thing, I'm not sure how anyone could claim a woman volunteered for surgery thirty times over four years. Surgeries that generally failed and would have caused greater issues.

would defer to our resident scholars ofc but

divvying responsibility/benefit up by nation is to me a hugely flawed way to even start.

you're talking about a time far before modern bills of rights or etc and its not like the common citizenry had today's influence over how their great and good ran things

well and good to say irish ascendancy class (or whoever) profited from slavery and subsequently may have spread their beneficence such that the local peasants saw some good of it

it's a terrible angle to take imo, even if correct when viewed through that narrow lens

collective responsibility needs a seriously robust framework of social structure to make any sense whatsoever as an ideology and human society just hasnt had that framework in place in any meaningful way for it to apply in this posited instance imo

tear the statue down, sure. "all white irish benefitted from slavery" ah no trevor not for me.

nullzero

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'd say that dumping images of historical sites and snidely wondering when they're next is lazier.



Invoking the Nazis in relation to people who took down a statue of a slaver. Classy.

Classy?

I clearly reached as far out as possible to make point, surely that was obvious.

How are things on the moral high ground?

Put me out of my majesty your misery.

Paddygreen

They need to leave that mofo in the water. Me and my home boys started struttin towards the city center this morning. Damn the goddamn police,. I’m over lockdown but still social distancing as I fight for justice. Nearly in Sandymount and won’t be long until we get us some family buckets at the KFC in Westmorland st. Me and my posse will start break dancing and rapping for justice on O Connell bridge this afternoon , we will show those pale face honkys what a few brothers from Dalkey, Snoop Dogg and a Bluetooth speaker can do.

nullzero

Bannasidhe wrote: »

When slavery was abolished in the British Empire slave owners were compensated for the loss of their 'property' under the Slavery Abolition Act 1833.
Historians are mapping where those who received compensation lived.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/maps/britain/#zoom=7&lng=-8.469285&lat=51.896225&lbs/person_id=17138


Among the 80 compensated slave owners so far discovered on the island of Ireland, and the 7 in Cork, was the Reverend Archibald Robert Hamilton (1778-1857), with an address on the South Terrace .
In 1835 he received £94 13s 1d for the 'loss' of 7 slaves in Kingston, Jamaica; and £5,253 10s 2d for 251 slaves in the parish of St Andrew, Jamaica.

That is eqv to £683,841 today working out as each human being he owned was worth an average £2,650 in today's money.

The freed slaves received exactly zero.

80 on the island of Ireland, a part of the British Empire.

I've seen the spectre of Irish slave owners raised here on more than one occasion, rarely with the context of this island being firmly under British rule at the time being mentioned.

Should we as a nation feel some sort of guilt for our "involvement" in slavery?
Or were we also victims of the same empire, just as downtrodden and dehumanised as anyone else?

How quickly we forget our own history to clamour to take responsibility for abuses carried out by those who abused us as well.

lawrencesummers

Do the people here objecting to this have a similar issue with what happened nelsons pillar?

Would you be happy to see a statue of Cromwell in Eyre Square?

nullzero

Paddygreen wrote: »

They need to leave that mofo in the water. Me and my home boys started struttin towards the city center this morning. Damn the goddamn police,. I’m over lockdown but still social distancing as I fight for justice. Nearly in Sandymount and won’t be long until we get us some family buckets at the KFC in Westmorland st. Me and my posse will start break dancing and rapping for justice on O Connell bridge this afternoon , we will show those pale face honkys what a few brothers from Dalkey, Snoop Dogg and a Bluetooth speaker can do.

Doesn't look like you're getting the weather for it.

nullzero

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Do the people here objecting to this have a similar issue with what happened nelsons pillar?

Would you be happy to see a statue of Cromwell in Eyre Square?

Plenty of people lamented the destruction of Nelsons column, an act carried out by the IRA lest we forget.

Anything can and should be removed but in a mature and responsible manner.

Oxter

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Also some of our ports would have been significantly involved in the slave trade if I recall correctly?

In relation to the surgery thing, I'm not sure how anyone could claim a woman volunteered for surgery thirty times over four years. Surgeries that generally failed and would have caused greater issues.

A slave would be lucky to survive one surgery then.

What about the medical experiments carried out in orphanages in this country in the 20th century?

MontgomeryClift

Sadiq Khan wants a complete change of public monuments and street names because they don't reflect the new diversity.

https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/1270258604256514049

I'm sure when Khan's parents moved from Pakistan to Britain in 1968 they thought, "This is nice. We now have a good education system, a health system, a legal system, varied employment, law and order and plenty of entertainment. It's a pity it was all created by white people."

Also in the news today: Pakistan still struggles to build things that don't fall down.

Pakistan: Building collapse in Karachi kills 13 people

https://apnews.com/bdf1178da06867c859d098c49dc01e0b

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/LBCNews/status/1270228933670207488

All getting ridiculous now.

nullzero

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

Sadiq Khan wants a complete change of public monuments and street names because they don't reflect the new diversity.

https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/1270258604256514049

I'm sure when Khan's parents moved from Pakistan to Britain in 1968 they thought, "This is nice. We now have a good education system, a health system, a legal system, varied employment, law and order and plenty of entertainment. It's a pity it was all created by white people."

Also in the news today: Pakistan still struggles to build things that don't fall down.

Pakistan: Building collapse in Karachi kills 13 people

https://apnews.com/bdf1178da06867c859d098c49dc01e0b

Makes you wonder how well screwed together their nukes are.

growleaves

I've seen the spectre of Irish slave owners raised here on more than one occasion

Many of them are literally Lords and Ladies from the upper reaches of the British peerage.

nullzero

growleaves wrote: »

Many of them are literally Lords and Ladies from the upper reaches of the British peerage.

Of course, but they were white, Irish people are white too so we all have to take responsibility for what they did because being white is offensive to people who aren't white supposedly.

lawrencesummers

nullzero wrote: »

Plenty of people lamented the destruction of Nelsons column, an act carried out by the IRA lest we forget.

Anything can and should be removed but in a mature and responsible manner.

Lest we forget, the IRA of 1966 was a lot different to the more modern one, and had a lot more support.

This is how Wikipedia recorded the mood of it also.

Reactions among the general public were relatively light-hearted, typified by the numerous songs inspired by the incident. These included the immensely popular "Up Went Nelson", set to the tune of "John Brown's Body" and performed by a group of Belfast schoolteachers, which remained at the top of the Irish charts for eight weeks.[94]




What should happen in this Country and in the UK is that all public monuments, statues and references to historic people such as street names get reviewed for their suitability to today’s society. If they are not suitable then they can be moved to museums or destroyed Altogether.

robinph

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/LBCNews/status/1270228933670207488

All getting ridiculous now.

What is ridiculous about setting up a commission to look into who deserves being celebrated by a city? Thought that was what people wanted to happen rather than a mob deciding things?

Edgware

Hunky Monster wrote: »

What are they even protesting for? In the UK last year only TWO unarmed people were killed, one was the London Bridge terrorist.

Absolute degenerates.

The London Bridge terrorist who murdered decent people after the British legal system though he was rehabilitated and released him to kill

Bannasidhe

CrankyHaus wrote: »

So what's your argument?
That it's our fault that the people who colonised us and subjugated us with discrimnatory penal laws kept some slaves?

Head over to Xinjiang and tell the Uighers to atone for China's oppression in Tibet and see how far that gets you.

That's some leaping to tall conclusions there Superman.

And lashings of whatabout.

Pity you know so little about the Penal Laws (like the fact that they were in force in England. Wales, and Scotland as well and aimed at all Non-Anglicans) but it seems that is par for the course in this thread.

When faced with verifiable facts the response is hyperbole and whataboutery.

lawrencesummers

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/LBCNews/status/1270228933670207488

All getting ridiculous now.

Let the people judge what adorns their streets. Nothing wrong with that.

Edgware

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Lest we forget, the IRA of 1966 was a lot different to the more modern one, and had a lot more support.

This is how Wikipedia recorded the mood of it also.

Reactions among the general public were relatively light-hearted, typified by the numerous songs inspired by the incident. These included the immensely popular "Up Went Nelson", set to the tune of "John Brown's Body" and performed by a group of Belfast schoolteachers, which remained at the top of the Irish charts for eight weeks.[94]




What should happen in this Country and in the UK is that all public monuments, statues and references to historic people such as street names get reviewed for their suitability to today’s society. If they are not suitable then they can be moved to museums or destroyed Altogether.

I agree. It's terrible that we have a street in Dublin named after Thierry Henry after he cheating us out of the World Cup

Yellow_Fern

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Do the people here objecting to this have a similar issue with what happened nelsons pillar?

Would you be happy to see a statue of Cromwell in Eyre Square?

I think a level of decolonisation is sensible but it can easily be overdone and it shouldn't be done by mobs. The idea of kneeling on a statue like they did with Colston is totally cringeyworthy and is using an African American symbol in the UK which doesn't make any sense. Blowing up of Nelson was at the very least criminally dangerous and thuggish. UCC had a Queen Vic stature, and in the 1930s it was replaced with St Finbar, and Vic which is now in a museum stall in the university, which is a sensible approach. But it is Cork and not Bristol so much more cohesive society.

Oxter

Oxter wrote: »

A slave would be lucky to survive one surgery then.

What about the medical experiments carried out in orphanages in this country in the 20th century?

And the fact is, one of the women was operated on thirty times. I equally condemn everything that happened in our orphanages. I'm not sure why you think I wouldn't...

completedit

It actually makes sense for these things to be reviewed. Life moves on, what was deserving of a statue 50 years ago, may not need one today. Culture evolves and the people important to that culture can change. History isn't crystallised.

CrankyHaus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That's some leaping to tall conclusions there Superman.

And lashings of whatabout.

Pity you know so little about the Penal Laws (like the fact that they were in force in England. Wales, and Scotland as well and aimed at all Non-Anglicans) but it seems that is par for the course in this thread.

When faced with verifiable facts the response is hyperbole and whataboutery.

So can you clarify your position or are you just going to hide behind patronising and irrelevant non sequitars?