Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

nullzero

robinph wrote: »

What is ridiculous about setting up a commission to look into who deserves being celebrated by a city? Thought that was what people wanted to happen rather than a mob deciding things?

London is also a city which was the centre of the biggest empire on the planet.
That history contains a whole lot of uncomfortable history many may not understand. The answer isn't to rename or remove monuments, but to contextualise them.

It's high time the British learned they weren't the good guys of history, however removing historical monuments from all public spaces isn't a practical solution.

A benchmark needs to be established for anything that should be removed. Not simply relying on offence by some as being reason to remove things.

One thing the United Kingdom could do is return valuable antiquities they have stolen and keep in their museums to their countries of origin.
Then they might have somewhere to house all these monuments.

Bannasidhe

nullzero wrote: »

Should we as a nation feel some sort of guilt for our "involvement" in slavery?
Or were we also victims of the same empire, just as downtrodden and dehumanised as anyone else?

Again another hyperbolic response.

Who said anything about 'guilt'?
Who denied the effects of colonisation on Ireland?

I certainly didn't.

I pointed out that slave owners were compensated for the loss of their 'property' but the slaves themselves got nothing - which Daniel O'Connell strongly objected to btw.
I also showed that so far 80 slave owners with addresses on the island of Ireland got compensation.

That's it.

Anything about 'guilt' or the effects of British rule are your projections as I never mentioned them, so your comments say more about you than me.

I don't deal in guilt. I deal in historical facts.

Bannasidhe

CrankyHaus wrote: »

So can you clarify your position or are you just going to hide behind patronising and irrelevant non sequitars?

When I played rugby I was a prop forward.
My preferred position was loosehead but I could also play tighthead.

On the issue of historical event I don't have a 'position', there are verifiable facts, there is educated suposition based on facts, and there is utter nonsense spouted by people who don't care/bother to learn facts.

What happened, happened.
There is no position.

nullzero

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Again another hyperbolic response.

Who said anything about 'guilt'?
Who denied the effects of colonisation on Ireland?

I certainly didn't.

I pointed out that slave owners were compensated for the loss of their 'property' but the slaves themselves got nothing - which Daniel O'Connell strongly objected to btw.
I also showed that so far 80 slave owners with addresses on the island of Ireland got compensation.

That's it.

Anything about 'guilt' or the effects of British rule are your projections as I never mentioned them, so your comments say more about you than me.

I don't deal in guilt. I deal in historical facts.

Why did you feel the need to highlight the slave owners on the island of Ireland then?

What exactly was your point?

All slave owners were compensated (they shouldn't have been), whether British slave owners on the island of Britain or the island of Ireland received that money is irrelevant.

I'm struggling to understand why somebody who deals in facts only is including redundant information, when the only possible reason is to create a subtext of some sort.

CrankyHaus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

When I played rugby I was a prop forward.
My preferred position was loosehead but I could also play tighthead.

On the issue of historical event I don't have a 'position', there are verifiable facts, there is educated suposition based on facts, and there is utter nonsense spouted by people who don't care/bother to learn facts.

What happened, happened.
There is no position.

So you're just going around Boards posting "historical facts" at random?
And you simply ramdomly omitted the historical fact that the "Irish" slaveowners you enlightened us about were in fact our own colonisers?
And you reacted to people pointing this out and trying to make sense of your argument with a load of patronising word salad, all because you have "no position"?

Cool, have fun wasting someone else's time with your arguments in bad faith.

FVP3

Bannasidhe wrote: »

When slavery was abolished in the British Empire slave owners were compensated for the loss of their 'property' under the Slavery Abolition Act 1833.
Historians are mapping where those who received compensation lived.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/maps/britain/#zoom=7&lng=-8.469285&lat=51.896225&lbs/person_id=17138


Among the 80 compensated slave owners so far discovered on the island of Ireland, and the 7 in Cork, was the Reverend Archibald Robert Hamilton (1778-1857), with an address on the South Terrace .
In 1835 he received £94 13s 1d for the 'loss' of 7 slaves in Kingston, Jamaica; and £5,253 10s 2d for 251 slaves in the parish of St Andrew, Jamaica.

That is eqv to £683,841 today working out as each human being he owned was worth an average £2,650 in today's money.

The freed slaves received exactly zero.

I thought it was far more than 80 and closer to 800 actually. The claim is 46,000 were compensated in Britain. Since we have the records it is odd there is a dispute.

Of course Reverend Archibald Robert Hamilton is almost certainly protestant and of planter stock, as were most I could see. Most would have been protestant given the penal laws were not rescinded.

Myself, I see the British Empire as benefiting the top level of society rather than the "brits" as a whole. It remains odd that the names of these people are known but nothing is done about their inherited wealth. After all they were paid off by debt that itself took centuries to pay back. So the slave owners prospered while the working classes earned less. I am not sure how much of that debt we assumed in 1921.

lawrencesummers

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I think a level of decolonisation is sensible but it can easily be overdone and it shouldn't be done by mobs. The idea of kneeling on a statue like they did with Colston is totally cringeyworthy and is using an African American symbol in the UK which doesn't make any sense. Blowing up of Nelson was at the very least criminally dangerous and thuggish. UCC had a Queen Vic stature, and in the 1930s it was replaced with St Finbar, and Vic which is now in a museum stall in the university, which is a sensible approach. But it is Cork and not Bristol so much more cohesive society.

Police brutality shouldn’t be highlighted by mobs either, and if t wasn’t for this statue being dragged into a river do you think the UK authorities would ever speak about examining them?

There is a statue of Cecil Rhodes where a demonstration is due to take place today, A person of his beliefs has no Right to a prominent position of remembrance in today’s society. If it’s not removed by authorities then you can be sure the people will.

In sure that same thing can be said about plenty of other statues in the UK.

Bannasidhe

nullzero wrote: »

Why did you feel the need to highlight the slave owners on the island of Ireland then?

What exactly was your point?

All slave owners were compensated (they shouldn't have been), whether British slave owners on the island of Britain or the island of Ireland received that money is irrelevant.

I'm struggling to understand why somebody who deals in facts only is including redundant information, when the only possible reason is to create a subtext of some sort.

Keep spinning conspiracy theories all you like but the truth is rather more humdrum.

This is an Irish discussion forum so I mentioned how many with Irish addresses have so far been input into the database. I highlighted one who lived on the South Terrace in Cork for the simple reason I was born there so out of curiosity I looked.

I could equally have highlighted Charles McGarel of Larne in Co Antrim who like Colston is honoured as a philanthropist. But I'm not from Larne. I'm from Cork. So I have a local interest.

I also provided the link so everyone is free to see how many were in Bristol, or London, or Cardiff, or Glasgow. If I am creating a subtext I'm not doing a very good job when I provide the avenue for people to search for themselves.
Must try harder...

CrankyHaus

FVP3 wrote: »

I thought it was far more than 80 and closer to actually. The claim is 46,000 were compensated in Britain. Since we have the records it is odd there is a dispute.

Of course Reverend Archibald Robert Hamilton is almost certainly protestant and of planter stock, as were most I could see. Most would have been protestant given the penal laws were not rescinded.

Myself, I see the British Empire as benefiting the top level of society rather than the "brits" as a whole. It remains odd that the names of these people are known but nothing is done about their inherited wealth.

Pfffft, take unearned wealth from the rich and powerful, what Bolshevik notion is this?

Christy42

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/LBCNews/status/1270228933670207488

All getting ridiculous now.

Wasn't the issue many had with the Bristol incident that it was not being done by elected officials. Now it is a problem because it is being done by elected officials?

Bannasidhe

CrankyHaus wrote: »

So you're just going around Boards posting "historical facts" at random?
And you simply ramdomly omitted the historical fact that the "Irish" slaveowners you enlightened us about were in fact our own colonisers?
And you reacted to people pointing this out and trying to make sense of your argument with a load of patronising word salad, all because you have "no position"?

Cool, have fun wasting someone else's time with your arguments in bad faith.

Gee... bad historian posting historical facts on a thread where people are complaining about history being re-written. My bad.

Never said they were Irish btw - I said they had addresses in Ireland.

So many experts on history here yet so few seem familiar with how historians work.

na1

Why don't they turn their hate to the UK royal family (a criminal clan) who after hundreds of years of murders and all sorts of criminal activity still runs the country?
And why Ireland didn't demand the trial for their crime?

Edgware

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

Sadiq Khan wants a complete change of public monuments and street names because they don't reflect the new diversity.

https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/1270258604256514049

I'm sure when Khan's parents moved from Pakistan to Britain in 1968 they thought, "This is nice. We now have a good education system, a health system, a legal system, varied employment, law and order and plenty of entertainment. It's a pity it was all created by white people."

Also in the news today: Pakistan still struggles to build things that don't fall down.

Pakistan: Building collapse in Karachi kills 13 people

https://apnews.com/bdf1178da06867c859d098c49dc01e0b

Let's start with Stonehenge and work up through the Norman castles. The mills, railways of the Industrial Revolution will have to go because of their use of immigrant labour. It's only fair

Bannasidhe

FVP3 wrote: »

I thought it was far more than 80 and closer to 800 actually. The claim is 46,000 were compensated in Britain. Since we have the records it is odd there is a dispute.

Of course Reverend Archibald Robert Hamilton is almost certainly protestant and of planter stock, as were most I could see. Most would have been protestant given the penal laws were not rescinded.

Myself, I see the British Empire as benefiting the top level of society rather than the "brits" as a whole. It remains odd that the names of these people are known but nothing is done about their inherited wealth. After all they were paid off by debt that itself took centuries to pay back. So the slave owners prospered while the working classes earned less. I am not sure how much of that debt we assumed in 1921.

I would tend to agree.

The data isn't all input yet as there are still records to be examined.

What Rev Hamilton shows was that the middle classes were also involved. It would all come down to who had money to invest plus the contacts - there seems to have been certain families involved so the 80 with Irish addresses contain as many as 5 members of the same family who each owned slaves.
I am sure someone at some point will break it all down. This is just the initial stage of gathering information. Much work yet to be done.

Hopefully when the records from 2021 are finally fully released more info on how much, if any, of the debt the Free State assumed will become known.

Edgware

nullzero wrote: »

Makes you wonder how well screwed together their nukes are.

How could you ask such a racist question?
You have heard of Super Glue I presume

nullzero

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Keep spinning conspiracy theories all you like but the truth is rather more humdrum.

This is an Irish discussion forum so I mentioned how many with Irish addresses have so far been input into the database. I highlighted one who lived on the South Terrace in Cork for the simple reason I was born there so out of curiosity I looked.

I could equally have highlighted Charles McGarel of Larne in Co Antrim who like Colston is honoured as a philanthropist. But I'm not from Larne. I'm from Cork. So I have a local interest.

I also provided the link so everyone is free to see how many were in Bristol, or London, or Cardiff, or Glasgow. If I am creating a subtext I'm not doing a very good job when I provide the avenue for people to search for themselves.
Must try harder...

You really are a unpleasant character aren't you?

What conspiracy theories are you talking about exactly? You are making arguments by yourself a conspiracy requires more than one person, but being so well read I would assume you understand that to be the case.

If you have a personal interest that's fine, you never stated that until now, and it doesn't excuse your abrasive and condescending tone.

If anyone needs to try harder it is you in relation to your interpersonal skills.

Gradius

Colonisation:

"the action or process of settling among and establishing control over the indigenous people of an area"

"the action of appropriating a place or domain for one's own use"

Just looking at the sadiq Khan tweet about restablishing the place they live in to suit those who live in it...just from an overall big picture view of things, is this not basically colonisation?

Can someone argue the point that this isn't a new version of colonisation?

In 50 years, say, will there be a counter movement against THIS colonisation? Taking advantage of all a place has to offer, and then leveraging that advantage to essentially "take over"?

I've said it before and it's worth saying a thousand times more: these people show zero interest in places where slavery is rampant today, and instead full concentration is put on the most free places in the world where slavery existed sometimes centuries back.

It's awfully convenient, don't you think?

robinph

nullzero wrote: »

London is also a city which was the centre of the biggest empire on the planet.
That history contains a whole lot of uncomfortable history many may not understand. The answer isn't to rename or remove monuments, but to contextualise them.

It's high time the British learned they weren't the good guys of history, however removing historical monuments from all public spaces isn't a practical solution.

A benchmark needs to be established for anything that should be removed. Not simply relying on offence by some as being reason to remove things.

One thing the United Kingdom could do is return valuable antiquities they have stolen and keep in their museums to their countries of origin.
Then they might have somewhere to house all these monuments.

So what exactly is ridiculous about the setting up of a commission to look at these things again?

ancapailldorcha

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Keep spinning conspiracy theories all you like but the truth is rather more humdrum.

This is an Irish discussion forum so I mentioned how many with Irish addresses have so far been input into the database. I highlighted one who lived on the South Terrace in Cork for the simple reason I was born there so out of curiosity I looked.

I could equally have highlighted Charles McGarel of Larne in Co Antrim who like Colston is honoured as a philanthropist. But I'm not from Larne. I'm from Cork. So I have a local interest.

I also provided the link so everyone is free to see how many were in Bristol, or London, or Cardiff, or Glasgow. If I am creating a subtext I'm not doing a very good job when I provide the avenue for people to search for themselves.
Must try harder...

Are there any good books you'd recommend?

nullzero

robinph wrote: »

So what exactly is ridiculous about the setting up of a commission to look at these things again?

Did I say it was ridiculous?

I just gave my opinion on how it could possibly operate.

growleaves

What Rev Hamilton shows was that the middle classes were also involved.

The Hamiltons of Ireland were, at one point at least, an aristocratic family with connections to the upper reaches of the British peerage. (This is my third time posting this.)

Bannasidhe

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Are there any good books you'd recommend?

Liam Hogan was writing one about slave owners with addresses in Limerick but I'm not sure if it's published yet. Worth following him on twitter as he has lots of info there (@Limerick1914).

One interesting thing - to me - is that a descendent of Gráinne Ní Mhaille (aka Grainuaile), Howe Peter Browne 2nd Marquis of Sligo of Westport House received compensation for 286 slaves - he inherited plantations in Jamaica from his father.

The list was only released in 2014 so I imagine a lot of stuff is in the pipeline - takes a long time to do the research, get it peer reviewed, edited for publication etc.

ancapailldorcha

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Liam Hogan was writing one about slave owners with addresses in Limerick but I'm not sure if it's published yet. Worth following him on twitter as he has lots of info there (@Limerick1914).

One interesting thing - to me - is that a descendent of Gráinne Ní Mhaille (aka Grainuaile), Howe Peter Browne 2nd Marquis of Sligo of Westport House received compensation for 286 slaves - he inherited plantations in Jamaica from his father.

The list was only released in 2014 so I imagine a lot of stuff is in the pipeline - takes a long time to do the research, get it peer reviewed, edited for publication etc.

I meant in general but thanks!

FVP3

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I would tend to agree.

The data isn't all input yet as there are still records to be examined.

What Rev Hamilton shows was that the middle classes were also involved. It would all come down to who had money to invest plus the contacts - there seems to have been certain families involved so the 80 with Irish addresses contain as many as 5 members of the same family who each owned slaves.
I am sure someone at some point will break it all down. This is just the initial stage of gathering information. Much work yet to be done.

Hopefully when the records from 2021 are finally fully released more info on how much, if any, of the debt the Free State assumed will become known.

Yes, the middle classes were heavily involved. David Olusoga's excellent A House Through Time, now set in Bristol, is a timely reminder of that. It looks like a nascent capitalist class rather than the aristocracy were the majority of the slaveholders, which doesn't mean they held the majority of slaves though, as some people were compensated for 1 or 2 slaves. I have a different link on that which I will post when I find it.

Unlike the present day usage (ie median income guy and higher), the middle class were considered the top 5-10% then. They were the middling class between rich and poor, but not the median. The median were poor.

And in Ireland the catholic middle class, the middle class in general, was small, although there were some lawyers and some doctors around who may have had enough capital for slaves.

c.p.w.g.w

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Do the people here objecting to this have a similar issue with what happened nelsons pillar?

Would you be happy to see a statue of Cromwell in Eyre Square?

Well the statue in question isn't in an occupied country...if his statue was in Jamaica I would have no problem with it being removed, as all it does is cause problems...

FVP3

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Liam Hogan was writing one about slave owners with addresses in Limerick but I'm not sure if it's published yet. Worth following him on twitter as he has lots of info there (@Limerick1914).

One interesting thing - to me - is that a descendent of Gráinne Ní Mhaille (aka Grainuaile), Howe Peter Browne 2nd Marquis of Sligo of Westport House received compensation for 286 slaves - he inherited plantations in Jamaica from his father.

The list was only released in 2014 so I imagine a lot of stuff is in the pipeline - takes a long time to do the research, get it peer reviewed, edited for publication etc.

I mean it's all online, I know the bourke family owned slaves for instance. Mary Robinson's folks.

Interesting fact about Henry Peter Browne

In 1834-35 he was appointed Governor and Vice-Admiral of Jamaica and received with much pomp and circumstance.[1] The local plantation owners assumed that Browne, as a plantation owner himself, would look after their interests. However Browne's ownership of two plantations on the island had come to him via an inheritance upon the death of his grandmother, and as Browne would reveal in short order, did not think much of the institution of slavery being practised on the island.[6] Arriving shortly after the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833, Browne attempted to oversee the transition from slavery into a free society. He reformed the legal system, appointing the mixed-race Richard Hill in charge of the stipendiary magistrates during "the Apprenticeship" (a four year period in which the black population was to be "taugh" how to be "proper citizens").[7] He also set up schools for the black population, two of which he personally financed.

Seems incredibly forward thinking for his day.

Bannasidhe

growleaves wrote: »

The Hamiltons of Ireland were, at one point at least, an aristocratic family with connections to the upper reaches of the British peerage. (This is my third time posting this.)

I bow to your superior knowledge of the Hamilton family and their social standing.

I stand by my comment that it appears to have been a select number of families with address in Ireland who were involved. I haven't researched them all so cannot comment on their social standing.

Rich people bought slaves/shares in plantations. Not all rich people were aristocrats - Colston, the subject of this thread, was the son of a wealthy merchant not a member of the nobility.
Until every person with an address in Ireland is looked at we cannot say with absolute certainty if they were, or were not, of elevated social status.

lawrencesummers

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Well the statue in question isn't in an occupied country...if his statue was in Jamaica I would have no problem with it being removed, as all it does is cause problems...

And what about the Jamaicans that are in the UK? Have they any opinion that should be listened to?

growleaves

I bow to your superior knowledge of the Hamilton family and their social standing

It came up in something I was reading a month ago and apparently branches of this family still have upper-class wealth and connections to this day.

c.p.w.g.w

lawrencesummers wrote: »

And what about the Jamaicans that are in the UK? Have they any opinion that should be listened to?

Well then any British Military Leader or Monarch statute should be removed of the Irish living in England who are offended... Ridiculous