Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

Bannasidhe

FVP3 wrote: »

I mean it's all online, I know the bourke family owned slaves for instance. Mary Robinson's folks.

Interesting fact about Henry Peter Browne

In 1834-35 he was appointed Governor and Vice-Admiral of Jamaica and received with much pomp and circumstance.[1] The local plantation owners assumed that Browne, as a plantation owner himself, would look after their interests. However Browne's ownership of two plantations on the island had come to him via an inheritance upon the death of his grandmother, and as Browne would reveal in short order, did not think much of the institution of slavery being practised on the island.[6] Arriving shortly after the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833, Browne attempted to oversee the transition from slavery into a free society. He reformed the legal system, appointing the mixed-race Richard Hill in charge of the stipendiary magistrates during "the Apprenticeship" (a four year period in which the black population was to be "taugh" how to be "proper citizens").[7] He also set up schools for the black population, two of which he personally financed.

Seems incredibly forward thinking for his day.

I know a lot about the Burkes/Bourkes/Brownes in the 16th/early 17th C but not much after the death of Tibboid Na Long so I found it interesting that, given so much here in this thread has been made about those with Irish addresses who owned slaves were all colonisers, that one of them was actually a descendent of a very Irish heroine.

Bannasidhe

growleaves wrote: »

It came up in something I was reading a month ago and apparently branches of this family still have upper-class wealth and connections to this day.

I honestly never heard of them before today.
As I said what grabbed my attention was he lived on the street where I was born some 130 years later.
Now I must find out which number...

The street in question, for those not familiar with Cork, was once a grand Georgian street (mostly gone now) and not where those without funds would have lived.

Edit to add: I do know Cork City was demographically a 'Protestant' city before the Famine, but it was the Non-Conformists who were the movers and shakers - Quakers, Methodists, Unitarians, Presbyterians etc - all of whom would have been subject to the Penal Code as well as Catholics. In that area there were also a lot of charitable institutions funded by various Protestant groups. Many of the houses on the South Terrace weren't completed until the 1820s so when Hamilton lived there it was still very much a des-res.

lawrencesummers

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Well then any British Military Leader or Monarch statute should be removed of the Irish living in England who are offended... Ridiculous

If they have engaged in what is seen today as criminal behaviour then maybe they should be.

Edgware

lawrencesummers wrote: »

If they have engaged in what is seen today as criminal behaviour then maybe they should be.

Give us a fûcking break

Gradius

Gradius wrote: »

Colonisation:

"the action or process of settling among and establishing control over the indigenous people of an area"

"the action of appropriating a place or domain for one's own use"

Just looking at the sadiq Khan tweet about restablishing the place they live in to suit those who live in it...just from an overall big picture view of things, is this not basically colonisation?

Can someone argue the point that this isn't a new version of colonisation?

In 50 years, say, will there be a counter movement against THIS colonisation? Taking advantage of all a place has to offer, and then leveraging that advantage to essentially "take over"?

I've said it before and it's worth saying a thousand times more: these people show zero interest in places where slavery is rampant today, and instead full concentration is put on the most free places in the world where slavery existed sometimes centuries back.

It's awfully convenient, don't you think?

lawrencesummers wrote: »

And what about the Jamaicans that are in the UK? Have they any opinion that should be listened to?

Everyone must agree on my colonisation proposal then

As for the opinion of Jamaicans living in the UK, when Jamaica has a lower prevalence of slavery than the UK then it would be an opinion worth hearing.

But let's be honest, nobody gives a flying fook about slavery. It's all a means to an end for one group, and a lovely distraction for brats to vent the frustration of impotent lives. A heady mix

c.p.w.g.w

lawrencesummers wrote: »

If they have engaged in what is seen today as criminal behaviour then maybe they should be.

It's revisionist history and I have no time for that

iamstop

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

No, judging peoples past actions by today's standards and how that is stupid...was my point but obviously you missed that

Slavery wasn't good, but at the time it was perfectly legal...its like judging smokers in the 30's/40's the same as we do today, people of the 30's/40's had no idea how bad smoking was, whereas today the ill effects of smoking are well known

No, owning, trading and being the cause of the death of thousand of PEOPLE is NOTHING like smokers from the 30s and 40s. You're a lost soul. If I was a praying man, I'd pray for you.

There is a big difference between legal and moral. I think not recognizing that is your main problem.

Nermal

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'd say that dumping images of historical sites and snidely wondering when they're next is lazier.

Nothing I post can compare to the real world.

https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2020/0609/1146337-monuments-galway/

It wants a monument to Christopher Columbus in Galway to be taken down and is also seeking the removal of a plaque in Tuam, honouring Major Richard (Dick) Dowling, who served with the Confederate army in the US.

lawrencesummers

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

It's revisionist history and I have no time for that

No it’s just history.
Maybe it’s a good way to have the Uk take a look at the history and legacy they have left around the world, and that some of the people they revere actually did report reprehensible things, just because it was done in the name of colonisation doesn’t make it any less relevant.

lawrencesummers

Gradius wrote: »

Everyone must agree on my colonisation proposal then

As for the opinion of Jamaicans living in the UK, when Jamaica has a lower prevalence of slavery than the UK then it would be an opinion worth hearing.

But let's be honest, nobody gives a flying fook about slavery. It's all a means to an end for one group, and a lovely distraction for brats to vent the frustration of impotent lives. A heady mix

Nobody cares about slavery?

Good to know your the arbitrator of everyone’s opinions.

CrankyHaus

Nermal wrote: »

Nothing I post can compare to the real world.

https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2020/0609/1146337-monuments-galway/

It wants a monument to Christopher Columbus in Galway to be taken down and is also seeking the removal of a plaque in Tuam, honouring Major Richard (Dick) Dowling, who served with the Confederate army in the US.

Just to show the other way of dealing with this the Germans maintain an imposing Soviet War Memorial in the Tiergarten. While it remains controversial I don't think anyone believes that keeping it there makes Germany a stalinist state.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_War_Memorial_(Tiergarten)

ancapailldorcha

Nermal wrote: »

Nothing I post can compare to the real world.

https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2020/0609/1146337-monuments-galway/

It wants a monument to Christopher Columbus in Galway to be taken down and is also seeking the removal of a plaque in Tuam, honouring Major Richard (Dick) Dowling, who served with the Confederate army in the US.

What's the problem? Why not write yourself to the local authority involved making a case for it being left as it is?

Gradius

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Nobody cares about slavery?

Good to know your the arbitrator of everyone’s opinions.

It's self evident.

Or you can riddle me this, batman; why are people pulling down statues due to supposed outrage over slavery...

1) in the most free countries in the world
2) with slavery that is centuries old

While simultaneously

1) 100% ignoring actual ongoing slavery in the world,
2) often in countries of which these outraged people originate from

Riddle me that.

Why is Mr Khan in London so quick to jump on centuries old slavery while in his own country of origin it's currently happening now?

Why are people not marching on embassies to demand actual slavery be abolished in their respective countries?

Why are these righteous warriors not dismantling said embassies?

Etc.

I think you'll find the answer is inescapable, batman. These people don't actually care one iota about slavery.

But feel free to ameliorate the gaping chasm of hypocrisy with these people, if you'd like to try

na1

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/LBCNews/status/1270228933670207488

All getting ridiculous now.

Any statue with man riding a horse should be demolished!
#horserights!

lawrencesummers

Gradius wrote: »

It's self evident.

Or you can riddle me this, batman; why are people pulling down statues due to supposed outrage over slavery...

1) in the most free countries in the world
2) with slavery that is centuries old

While simultaneously

1) 100% ignoring actual ongoing slavery in the world,
2) often in countries of which these outraged people originate from

Riddle me that.

Why is Mr Khan in London so quick to jump on centuries old slavery while in his own country of origin it's currently happening now?

Why are people not marching on embassies to demand actual slavery be abolished in their respective countries?

Why are these righteous warriors not dismantling said embassies?

Etc.

I think you'll find the answer is inescapable, batman. These people don't actually care one iota about slavery.

But feel free to ameliorate the gaping chasm of hypocrisy with these people, if you'd like to try

Well now joker.
Plenty of people care about Slavery, both modern and historic.

na1

Should they burn the $5 notes (with a Lincoln's portrait)?

from Lincoln-Douglas Debates of 1858:

https://www.stolaf.edu//people/fitz/COURSES/debates.htm

I have never said anything to the contrary, but I hold that notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence--the right of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas he is not my equal in many respects--certainly not in color, perhaps not in intellectual and moral endowments; but in the right to eat the bread without the leave of any body else which his own hand earns, he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man."

y0ssar1an22

have we established a criteria for the removal of statues? should every statue of every monarch that reined during slavery times be removed?

lawrencesummers

Is there anyone on here that’s outraged by the removal of this statue equally willing to be outraged by:


https://youtu.be/hWxszYK6IPU

Or

The removal of The Robert E Lee statue.


These things are symbolic, and a lot of people miss that. Statues in the Uk are often symbols of their conquering greatness over the years and they ignore and the many people that this laid waste to.

Tearing down a symbol of that history allows a new history to begin.

Rip them all down I say.

Clarence Boddiker

Here's the 'Irish' Peter Browne.



As far as I'm concerned, asking ordinary Irish people to feel some sort of guilt or responsibility for the actions of this man is akin to asking an African American to feel guilt and responsibility for the actions of a plantation owner.

Personally I consider it repugnant in the extreme and an act of outright hostility. In fact its fair to say if someone said this to me in real life they'd be picking their teeth up off the floor.

Gradius

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Well now joker.
Plenty of people care about Slavery, both modern and historic.

You mean "riddler"

Your answer is brutally insufficient.

The fact of the matter remains, these people don't care about anything, otherwise you'd be able to make a coherent answer, such as pointing out where the protests are about modern slavery, what embassies are being attacked/defaced and so on.

You won't be able to do that however, because these things don't exist, just like your "argument"

na1

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

have we established a criteria for the removal of statues? should every statue of every monarch that reined during slavery times be removed?

don't bother with statues, target the living originals!

Clarence Boddiker

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

have we established a criteria for the removal of statues? should every statue of every monarch that reined during slavery times be removed?

Ultimately this will culminate in anything representing the oppressor class which is 'white people' being removed. The sooner people wake up to this fact the better.

robinph

Gradius wrote: »

Why is Mr Khan in London so quick to jump on centuries old slavery while in his own country of origin it's currently happening now?

He was born in London, or is that not British enough because of the colour of his skin?

Gregor Samsa

Banksy has a solution.

Put the statue back up, but tiled backwards. Commission bronze statues of protestors pulling it down with bronze ropes.

People who want the statue back up get it back up, the protestors' actions get commerated. Everyone happy.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBNmTVZsDKS/?utm_source=ig_embed

lawrencesummers

Gradius wrote: »

You mean "riddler"

Your answer is brutally insufficient.

The fact of the matter remains, these people don't care about anything, otherwise you'd be able to make a coherent answer, such as pointing out where the protests are about modern slavery, what embassies are being attacked/defaced and so on.

You won't be able to do that however, because these things don't exist, just like your "argument"

You said nobody cares about slavery.

I said people do.

You changed your argument name a few people and say they don’t care about slavery.

Different argument.

CrankyHaus

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

Banksy has a solution.

Put the statue back up, but tiled backwards. Commission bronze statues of protestors pulling it down with bronze ropes.

People who want the statue back up get it back up, the protestors' actions get commerated. Everyone happy.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBNmTVZsDKS/?utm_source=ig_embed

Nice of Banksy to offer to cover this out of his own pocket, or is he suggesting the taxpayer fund a bronze monument to vandals?

robinph

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

Banksy has a solution.

Put the statue back up, but tiled backwards. Commission bronze statues of protestors pulling it down with bronze ropes.

People who want the statue back up get it back up, the protestors actions get commerated. Everyone happy.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBNmTVZsDKS/?utm_source=ig_embed

I was actually a bit disappointed with that idea. Obviously it's completely daft (and that is probably the point) but thought he'd have come up with something better than that. He was probably feeling a bit rushed to generate a response though.

Gradius

robinph wrote: »

He was born in London, or is that not British enough because of the colour of his skin?

Is that your only point of attack, or can you explain the hypocrisy of anything else I've clearly laid out? I presume you can't.

However, to nuke your piddling point, would said person be more interested in using the power of his position, gained via the very country he is so rapid to criticise, to quell the ACTUAL slavery of other countries?

Why not? Why is he more interested in criticising centuries past problems when he could use his position to do something actively good right now?

Or do these people, demonstrably by the focus of their "concerns", actually not give a rats arse?

As said above, the answer is self evident.

Bannasidhe

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

Here's the 'Irish' Peter Browne.



As far as I'm concerned, asking ordinary Irish people to feel some sort of guilt or responsibility for the actions of this man is akin to asking an African American to feel guilt and responsibility for the actions of a plantation owner.

Personally I consider it repugnant in the extreme and an act of outright hostility. In fact its fair to say if someone said this to me in real life they'd be picking their teeth up off the floor.

Who is asking anyone here, or generally, to feel guilty?
Perhaps those whose family fortunes were earned via the slave trade might want to have a think but guilt?

And that same Peter Browne was a direct descendent of Gráinne Ní Mhaille - the same Grainuaile Pearse wrote about on Óró, sé do bheatha bhaile.
She couldn't have been more Irish.

He was the biggest landlord in Mayo because Gráinne's son and heir Tibboid Na Long Burke bought up land. The deeds are in the Westport Estate Papers in the National Library of Ireland. https://www.nli.ie/pdfs/mss%20lists/078_WestportCollection.pdf

Gradius

lawrencesummers wrote: »

You said nobody cares about slavery.

I said people do.

You changed your argument name a few people and say they don’t care about slavery.

Different argument.

"People don't eat rocks, otherwise you could show me"

"yes they do"

Well that's me convinced