Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

marieholmfan

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Hilarious how in this thread Irish people weren't Irish during British occupation if they were doing bad things, the Brits made them do it.

Irishness contains a moral element. Bobby Sands Irish, Paschal Donoghue foreign. Jesus Irish, Michael Noonan foreign.

Gradius

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

There's very, very few countries that were ever represented by their "indigenous people". Iceland, maybe at one time, with a tiny isolated population. You'll be hard pressed to find a country on earth with no ethnic variation, even before modern times.

What makes an indigenous Irish person? Pre-Celt, Celt, Viking, Norman - to name but a few - all mixed in. And each of those groups had their own origins, their own mixes.

Chasing a dream of ethnic purity anywhere on earth is a fool's errand. Because the concept is imaginary.

I'd be hard pressed to find a country represented by its indigenous population, even throughout history?

Indigenous people.

Indigenous.

Is that a fantasy word to you bereft of any and all meaning?

Go back to bed, man

I'm sure the aboriginal people will back you up on the great benefits reaped by the diversity gifted by the British empire. Or the aztecs and incans that were diversified by the arrival of the Spanish, or the similar diversity visitations of the moors and Mongolians and Han Chinese and soviets and saxons and all the way back through time.

I'm positive you're the kind of bloke that will look in the eyes of an American Indian and tell them that they aren't indigenous and that the land was never really theirs, yeah?

Diversity = brilliant, as long as it's convenient to my feelings at any given moment, right?

Bannasidhe

Gradius wrote: »

At some of those protests there are lines of African people queuing up to have their feet washed by Europeans on their knees, all in the name of "forgiveness".

The United States is all but finished in my opinion. It's gone beyond the beyond, and there are clear lessons for other countries in what not to do, going from slavery all the way up to inviting untold millions of outsiders to come on in.

It would be almost funny if it weren't for other countries racing to replicate it's downfall. Crazy times.

African people?

I'm confused.

Lines of people from Africa (Ghana? Ivory Coast? Egypt? Cameroon? Liberia?) are lining up so white people of unknown origin can wash their feet?

Where are the white people from?

How do the Native Americans feel about white people washing African's feet?
I mean, it's not like they invited the white people in the first place.
And then the white people brought black people - which if you think about it means the white people (who weren't invited) invited the black people (who didn't want to go) but nobody asked the people who were all ready there for permission.

And now there are queues of Africans.



No wonder the US is in so much trouble.

Gradius

Bannasidhe wrote: »

African people?

I'm confused.

Lines of people from Africa (Ghana? Ivory Coast? Egypt? Cameroon? Liberia?) are lining up so white people of unknown origin can wash their feet?

Where are the white people from?

How do the Native Americans feel about white people washing African's feet?
I mean, it's not like they invited the white people in the first place.
And then the white people brought black people - which if you think about it means the white people (who weren't invited) invited the black people (who didn't want to go) but nobody asked the people who were all ready there for permission.

And now there are queues of Africans.



No wonder the US is in so much trouble.

Pretend confusion intensifies!

Meanwhile, the very nature of one group of people washing another group of peoples feet is ENTIRELY predicated on the acknowledged fact that they are different groups of people.

"We're all American! Except when we aren't!"

And well done on identifying the American Indians as a group that have been subjugated to such an extreme that they aren't even part of anything anymore. Wonder how that happened?!

Bannasidhe

Gradius wrote: »

Pretend confusion intensifies!

Meanwhile, the very nature of one group of people washing another group of peoples feet is ENTIRELY predicated on the acknowledged fact that they are different groups of people.

"We're all American! Except when we aren't!"

And well done on identifying the American Indians as a group that have been subjugated to such an extreme that they aren't even part of anything anymore. Wonder how that happened?!

I'm still trying to figure out why there are Africans queuing.

I could understand it if there were white Americans who were offering as some Christianity inspired act of repentance to wash the feet of Americans who were black but Africans?

By 'understand' I mean I can see how they came up with it, not that it's something I would do myself as I'm not a Christian and feet are mank no matter what colour they are, but if a person believes in following the example of Jesus sure leave 'em off like. Better then bating the living s*ite out each other.

But what does that have to do with Africans? Surely their ancestors got to stay in Africa - apart from the white Africans obviously, a lot of their ancestors arrived in Africa uninvited...

FVP3

Gradius wrote: »

At some of those protests there are lines of African people queuing up to have their feet washed by Europeans on their knees, all in the name of "forgiveness".

The United States is all but finished in my opinion. It's gone beyond the beyond, and there are clear lessons for other countries in what not to do, going from slavery all the way up to inviting untold millions of outsiders to come on in.

It would be almost funny if it weren't for other countries racing to replicate it's downfall. Crazy times.

Thats fairly pointless. Give them your house, not a footjob if you were born of a slaveholder.

Interesting to see it play out over here. We are, of course, totally colonised by American thought, at least the middle classes are. Or some of them. I imagine the point of the find the Irish slaveholders is to guilt us all with the whiteness, but as we have seen, most of them are Anglo Irish and all of them were Protestant along the line of inheritance given the penal laws. I know that is true of the Bourke family - part Anglican, part Catholic.

We know our history but the British working classes don't. They shouldn't really feel guilt either, but the elites should, the 46000 people compensated in britain was of a population of about 12 million or so. So about 0.3%. That would be 250,000 of the population today.

( It sounds small in percentages but large in numbers, huh?)

Naively then there are 250,000 people who are direct descendents of the slave owners, and since that large a number cant be all aristocrats but are no doubt still privileged, a good percentage of Britain's great and good -- members of the BBC, the civil service, journalists must be of slave holder descent. Or at least of the ones that were compensated.

Gradius

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm still trying to figure out why there are Africans queuing.

I could understand it if there were white Americans who were offering as some Christianity inspired act of repentance to wash the feet of Americans who were black but Africans?

By 'understand' I mean I can see how they came up with it, not that it's something I would do myself as I'm not a Christian and feet are mank no matter what colour they are, but if a person believes in following the example of Jesus sure leave 'em off like. Better then bating the living s*ite out each other.

But what does that have to do with Africans? Surely their ancestors got to stay in Africa - apart from the white Africans obviously, a lot of their ancestors arrived in Africa uninvited...

In fact, you're SO confused, you managed to read my original comment and pick out the word "african", read that I wrote the word "european", yet somehow ran that word through your biased brain to plop out "white people".

Read it again.

You are so deep in your bias that...

1) you can't read
2) quite funnily, you then start posing questions on what you made up



Just to add: and then your man "likes" your post. It really goes to demonstrate the calibre of both bias and lack of critical thought. What place does critical thinking even have if the information is warped before it reaches that part of the brain?

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm still trying to figure out why there are Africans queuing.

I could understand it if there were white Americans who were offering as some Christianity inspired act of repentance to wash the feet of Americans who were black but Africans?

By 'understand' I mean I can see how they came up with it, not that it's something I would do myself as I'm not a Christian and feet are mank no matter what colour they are, but if a person believes in following the example of Jesus sure leave 'em off like. Better then bating the living s*ite out each other.

But what does that have to do with Africans? Surely their ancestors got to stay in Africa - apart from the white Africans obviously, a lot of their ancestors arrived in Africa uninvited...

He seems to think white Americans are Europeans too.... Christ......

Nermal

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8401935/Sadiq-Khan-calls-Londons-slave-trader-statues-removed-orders-landmarks-review.html

Thousands of Black Lives Matter supporters gather in Oxford to demand removal of Cecil Rhodes monument as local authorities race to take down slave trader landmarks from protesters' hit list of 60 'racist statues'

What happens when you kneel.

Odhinn

Nermal wrote: »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8401935/Sadiq-Khan-calls-Londons-slave-trader-statues-removed-orders-landmarks-review.html

Thousands of Black Lives Matter supporters gather in Oxford to demand removal of Cecil Rhodes monument as local authorities race to take down slave trader landmarks from protesters' hit list of 60 'racist statues'

What happens when you kneel.

????

Nermal

Nermal wrote: »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8401935/Sadiq-Khan-calls-Londons-slave-trader-statues-removed-orders-landmarks-review.html

Thousands of Black Lives Matter supporters gather in Oxford to demand removal of Cecil Rhodes monument as local authorities race to take down slave trader landmarks from protesters' hit list of 60 'racist statues'

What happens when you kneel.

There's been demands to remove these statues for years, I'm glad to see it looks likely to get momentum. I'm completely in favour of putting them in a museum. I don't think they deserve prominent positions on a street etc as it gives pretty awful individuals, positions of respect.

Bannasidhe

Gradius wrote: »

In fact, you're SO confused, you managed to read my original comment and pick out the word "african", read that I wrote the word "european", yet somehow ran that word through your biased brain to plop out "white people".

Read it again.

You are so deep in your bias that...

1) you can't read
2) quite funnily, you then start posing questions on what you made up

So you did.

That makes it even more confusing tbh.

Now it turns out there are Europeans (Finnish? Spanish? Dutch? Slovakian? Danish?) washing the feet of Africans in the US while around them Americans are bating the living s*ite out of each other.

Are you sure it isn't Americans who are white offering to wash the feet of Americans who are black?

That would make more sense - in a Judeo-Christian defination of sense.

Gradius

Deleted User wrote: »

He seems to think white Americans are Europeans too.... Christ......

Sure that's nothing, man. There are people lining up to wash the feet of others because they...wait for it... Seem to think they are...somehow...different from each other!

Is it about money? No, otherwise there'd be Asians washing/getting washed.

Is it about social status? No, otherwise you'd have Asians washing/getting washed.

Hmm, what is this strange imaginary devide that seems so complete, and mutually recognised?

Gosh, who can know?

Gradius

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So you did.

That makes it even more confusing tbh.

Now it turns out there are Europeans (Finnish? Spanish? Dutch? Slovakian? Danish?) washing the feet of Africans in the US while around them Americans are bating the living s*ite out of each other.

Are you sure it isn't Americans who are white offering to wash the feet of Americans who are black?

That would make more sense - in a Judeo-Christian defination of sense.

Your imaginary confusion has worn out its amusement for me.

Bannasidhe

Gradius wrote: »

Sure that's nothing, man. There are people lining up to wash the feet of others because they...wait for it... Seem to think they are...somehow...different from each other!

Is it about money? No, otherwise there'd be Asians washing/getting washed.

Is it about social status? No, otherwise you'd have Asians washing/getting washed.

Hmm, what is this strange imaginary devide that seems so complete, and mutually recognised?

Gosh, who can know?

Is someone forcing people to wash other people's feet?
Are there heavily armed whoevers there with loaded guns forcing feet washing?

Or have people decided to do this (frankly revolting imho) feet washing of their own free will?

If it's the latter what business is it of yours?

buried

If some of the British public really are serious about eradicating any monument or institution for the wanton colonial slave crimes of their own nations past, then they better blow the whole place up and throw it in the river.

Bannasidhe

buried wrote: »

If some of the British public really are serious about eradicating any monument or institution for the wanton colonial slave crimes of their own nations past, then they better blow the whole place up.

Personally, I think the fact that the British public are finally beginning to realise their colonial past wasn't all Rudyard Kipling writing amusing stories about a bear and his best friend, Micheal Caine in Zulu, and 'we abolished slavery' is a positive step.

Nermal

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think they deserve prominent positions on a street etc as it gives pretty awful individuals.

Do you hear that, Sir Francis Drake (Plymouth Hoe)? Knight, mayor, MP, explorer, privateer, second person to circumnavigate the planet?

Across almost five centuries, can you hear the thundering judgement of boards.ie forum member 'protonmike'?

He says you're 'pretty awful'.

Clarence Boddiker

FVP3 wrote: »

We are, of course, totally colonised by American thought

Nail on head, and it's absolutely pathetic to see.

Gradius

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Is someone forcing people to wash other people's feet?
Are there heavily armed whoevers there with loaded guns forcing feet washing?

Or have people decided to do this (frankly revolting imho) feet washing of their own free will?

If it's the latter what business is it of yours?

I never claimed it to be my business.

A more awkward question for you, if these supposed good guys are so ready to recognise the skin tones and geographical elements that divide them, and do so with gusto...

Why can't you?

Bannasidhe

Nermal wrote: »

Do you hear that, Sir Francis Drake (Plymouth Hoe)? Knight, mayor, MP, explorer, privateer, second person to circumnavigate the planet?

Across almost five centuries, can you hear the thundering judgement of boards.ie forum member 'protonmike'?

He says you're 'pretty awful'.

Francis Drake who took part in the massacre of 600 people on Rathlin Island?

There's a monument to him in Cork.

buried

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Personally, I think the fact that the British public are finally beginning to realise their colonial past wasn't all Rudyard Kipling writing amusing stories about a bear and his best friend, Micheal Caine in Zulu, and 'we abolished slavery' is a positive step.

Would be nice alright B, but I think this whole thing is just a hype fad concerning the sections of the public on the current rage. Something else could happen next week and all this will be forgotten. Rage merchants don't have the energy to exert any semblance of change. They'd be better off reading some books and educate themselves and their own children not be like what came before I think.

Bannasidhe

Gradius wrote: »

I never claimed it to be my business.

A more awkward question for you, if these supposed good guys are so ready to recognise the skin tones and geographical elements that divide them, and do so with gusto...

Why can't you?

You posted about it but you don't think it's your business?

I do recognise skin tones, and cultural differences, and geographic elements.
I just don't happen to believe one particular skin tone is superior to another.

And as for the second part - we are talking about Americans yeah?
What geographic elements divide the people of say, New Jersey or Georgia?

Bannasidhe

buried wrote: »

Would be nice alright B, but I think this whole thing is just a hype fad concerning the sections of the public on the current rage. Something else could happen next week and all this will be forgotten. Rage merchants don't have the energy to exert any semblance of change. They'd be better off reading some books and educate themselves and their own children not be like what came before I think.

I fear you are probably right.
But I live in hope of people educating themselves.

El_Duderino 09

nullzero wrote: »

Crying about it?

I've stated previously that I felt the statue should have been removed properly. My problem is Mob rule, all I've done is rationalise why the city council didn't remove it, while there was some pressure to remove it there wasn't sufficient pressure to force their hand so they spent their money elsewhere.

I keep seeing this where people are saying they agree the statue should have come down they just don't agree with the method. I really doubt these people would actually support taking down the statue.

If we were having a discussion about taking down statues of historical figures who have since been found to have done bad things, the same posters would eb opposed to it.

Just to illustrate the point: Nullzero, what other historical figures should be taken down? What about the confederate leader statues in america? What about the other statues of people involved in racism or similarly naughty behaviour?

Christy42

Gradius wrote: »

In fact, you're SO confused, you managed to read my original comment and pick out the word "african", read that I wrote the word "european", yet somehow ran that word through your biased brain to plop out "white people".

Read it again.

You are so deep in your bias that...

1) you can't read
2) quite funnily, you then start posing questions on what you made up



Just to add: and then your man "likes" your post. It really goes to demonstrate the calibre of both bias and lack of critical thought. What place does critical thinking even have if the information is warped before it reaches that part of the brain?

You are calling people European and African who have never been to those continents. Don't give out about others critical thinking. Why do you stop there BTW? Both could be divided up far more heavily on geographic / genetic levels.

What do you with mixtures of genetics? How many years where the native Irish here before we became Irish? Presumably the first people on the rock were not Irish so at some point down the line they switched. Seems to take a good few generations for you. If someone gets 1000 years of their family all born and raised in the US will they be American and not European/African? If so will you be able to tell the difference between them and Europeans? And if not should we not all be Africans?

El_Duderino 09

markodaly wrote: »

You oppose violence sometimes, you agree with it sometimes. That is the core belief we have from you at the moment.



Protests that descend into violence where people attack other humans (the police) and damage public property is not a peaceful protest.

LOL. You're conflating a vigilante mob beating and hanging people they think might be criminals, with peaceful protesters. Come on Marko, you can be better than that. I believe in you Marko.

MontgomeryClift

Gradius wrote: »

Your imaginary confusion has worn out its amusement for me.

https://youtu.be/sAc0XTkQsnw?t=194

Clarence Boddiker

Lol

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1270393472240025601

Gradius

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You posted about it but you don't think it's your business?

I do recognise skin tones, and cultural differences, and geographic elements.
I just don't happen to believe one particular skin tone is superior to another.

And as for the second part - we are talking about Americans yeah?
What geographic elements divide the people of say, New Jersey or Georgia?

What separates a person from new Jersey away from Georgia?

Those feet washers seem to have a very acute awareness and willingness to recognise the difference. Ditto for those having their feet washed.

And it's very much black and white, African and European.

So while you say you recognise certain differences in people, you obviously have a blindspot that these people readily jump on.

Why are there no Asians involved, or Mexicans, or American Indians?

This gets to the heart of the hypocrisy, that many people, including European people, believe that Europeans have to "pay". It is singular in its specificity. You yourself blindly misread the word "european" as to mean "white", and "white" is the byword for "bad". You are so immersed in this paradigm that it has become an automatic translation in your brain.

To spell it out more succinctly, there are a lot of people that have that same peculiar "blindspot" as you, and it isn't an accident.