Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

FVP3

"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped."

I am surprised at Saqid khan jumping on this particular bandwagon. He had seemed a sensible enough chap until today.

https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/1270452165258207232?s=20

Clarence Boddiker

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody is celebrating that and it most certainly is not a monument to slavery.

Stop twisting.

The only person twisting is you, you think that your own parameters are what counts, they're not.

FVP3

Megan Most Octagon wrote: »

Likely they just ran a social-media search instead e.g. on name, and tw/facebook return suggested he was indeed a good regualar cork bai (pale, and supports the ball team etc)



They could tell you something like 0.25% Pacific Islander, and shure no one would bat an eyelid, instead hold romanticised visions of pulling pacific fish many moons ago. Pays the money and takes the (future insurance) chances.

No they dont do that. The problem is the match the DNA records to other recent DNA records from the relatively recent past. My surname is English ( not Norman but English) and my results are all from Munster. Thats accurate enough as my parents are from Munster though I was born in Dublin. That said I'd like to find out where the English lads came from but it must have been centuries ago.

nickkinneg

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

Many thousands of slaves were brutally killed in the Colosseum, it has to go.
But you regard it as a historic artefact? Tough sh1t you don't get to decide which monuments are for saving.

Agree completely - with what you said - where does it end? Them Romans have a lot to answer for and.... they offend me - so there

Gradius

nickkinneg wrote: »

Agree completely - with what you said - where does it end? Them Romans have a lot to answer for and.... they offend me - so there

Here's how it is being decided; are these things in the Anglo sphere or not.

If it is, it's fair game.

If it isn't, no go.

That's the one and only criterion for valid offence.

4068ac1elhodqr

Reckon the only thing safe will be the pyramids (low smelt value, without the copper caps), and too much sweat to shift the rockage.
Also, can blame it all on the Anunnaki, who won't be back, and answerable until April 2029, even then won't give a toss.

FrancieBrady

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

The only person twisting is you, you think that your own parameters are what counts, they're not.

They aren't mine. The Coliseum is not a celebration of something, it just happens to have survived as a remnant. Plenty of education when you go to see it about what went on there.

Erecting a statute of a slaver is a conscious act.

It's an entirely different thing.

dogbert27

Should we be demanding an apology from Algeria?

https://www.baltimore.ie/the-sack-of-baltimore

It seems to be lost over in England that it was the public of the British Empire who protested for the abolishment of the slave trade in the 1780's and finally came in 1807 with the Abolishment of Slave Trade Act.

Attacking and destroying history does not build an equal future.

Bannasidhe

Megan Most Octagon wrote: »

Likely they just ran a social-media search instead e.g. on name, and tw/facebook return suggested he was indeed a good regualar cork bai (pale, and supports the ball team etc)


.

Could be, but they also matched me with my 'Merican first cousins and got their gloriously diverse ethnic backgrounds right.
TBH son looks Icelandic, hates all the ball teams equally, likes ice hockey - if they went by FB they'd say Alaskan - too grumpy to be Canadian.

nickkinneg

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They aren't mine. The Coliseum is not a celebration of something, it just happens to have survived as a remnant. Plenty of education when you go to see it about what went on there.

Erecting a statute of a slaver is a conscious act.

It's an entirely different thing.

The coliseum was used for the entertainment of the Roman people - it involved slaves/gladiators hacking each other to death for their entertainment - don't get me started on the cruelty to animals (going down another rabbit hole) - it is celebrated by people by virtue of the millions that go to visit it every year and Im sure is pretty protected structure - it is part of history - same as these statues - cannot be rewritten or erased to suit people - didnt George Orwell bang on about something like this in his book 1984?

jam_mac_jam

nickkinneg wrote: »

I repeat - By that same logic - the pyramids of Egypt should be torn down as well - they were built by slaves. Who is being held to account there?

The pyramids were not built by slaves. You may want to pick another example.

They were paid labourers. The Nile floods and farmers would work on them when they couldn't work on their land.

FrancieBrady

nickkinneg wrote: »

The coliseum was used for the entertainment of the Roman people - it involved slaves/gladiators hacking each other to death for their entertainment - don't get me started on the cruelty to animals (going down another rabbit hole) - it is celebrated by people by virtue of the millions that go to visit it every year and Im sure is pretty protected structure - it is part of history - same as these statues - cannot be rewritten or erased to suit people - didnt George Orwell bang on about something like this in his book 1984?

It's there and always was.

A statue is created to venerate and celebrate - it is that conscious act that is the difference. And is to be criticised.

nickkinneg

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

The pyramids were not built by slaves. You may want to pick another example.

They were paid labourers. The Nile floods and farmers would work on them when they couldn't work on their land.

I already did earlier

Bannasidhe

Gradius wrote: »

You : "it's impossible to categorise people"

Foot washers: "let me show you"

Are these people taking on-the-spot genealogy tests? Like fook they are. They are using their eyeballs to differentiate people, with unerring deviation. European people on the bottom, African sitting up top.

So which is it? Are they racist because they are using their eyeballs to differentiate people? Are you racist because you refuse to tell your arse from your elbow when grouping people?

If one of those European-looking people turned out to be 87% African, do you think he'd get his feet washed by an African-looking that's actually 92% genetically European? Ha, you know the answer.

And that answer itself tells you everything about these hand-wringing exercises about who is who genetically. Namely, that it doesn't matter a jot.

It's nothing but a never ending maze of hypocrisy and contradiction.

For something that's not your business you really are getting worked up about this footwashing malarky.

So, I ask you again - why does it bother you so much that a group of people you deem to be 'European' are offering to wash the feet of people you deem to be 'African' if they are doing so of their own free will?

You seem to have a real issue accepting that some Americans decided this was the best way to try and heal the divisions in their society
It's their choice - and it's one that sits within the European Judeo-Christian framework.

Do you prefer when the two groups are at each other's throats?

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Immense historical value versus statues of zero historical worth that misrepresent history.

So there’s a time limit? How far back should we go? So the pyramids are historical value but this statue isn’t. I’m interested, how many years until something is considered “of historical worth” to you? How many years?

4068ac1elhodqr

Whataboutey the French footballer chap that did the cheating handball years ago (sorry to open old wounds),
any Frenchies here could do a recon, incase there is a smiling (likely gloating) statue of him fit for river disposal in Paris or somewhere.

Gradius

Bannasidhe wrote: »

For something that's not your business you really are getting worked up about this footwashing malarky.

So, I ask you again - why does it bother you so much that a group of people you deem to be 'European' are offering to wash the feet of people you deem to be 'African' if they are doing so of their own free will?

You seem to have a real issue accepting that some Americans decided this was the best way to try and heal the divisions in their society
It's their choice - and it's one that sits within the European Judeo-Christian framework.

Do you prefer when the two groups are at each other's throats?

You are deflecting, fruitlessly, back to why these idiots are doing what they're doing. That's not the contention, and never was.

Again, (again!), you can't tell people apart. They can.

You seem almost proud of the fact that you cant differentiate. They can.

More to the point, it's not that you cant. It is that you won't.

It is this refusal to see the obvious that is at the heart of the issue. Selective criteria, selective vision, selective criticism. Hypocrisy.

Actual slavery? No big deal.

Selective vision of centuries old slavery in only certain countries being torn down by selective people? Hypocrisy.

Gradius

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's there and always was.

A statue is created to venerate and celebrate - it is that conscious act that is the difference. And is to be criticised.

No the collisseum wasn't always there. What about the countless other pieces of art and buildings and statuary and monuments in Rome, built specifically to glorify itself at the expense of mass murder?

What about the countless modern interpretations around Rome?

What about Venice, it was a hive of slavery and it still stands proud and is still benefitting off its often less than illustrious history?

Finally, how likely do you think it is that the Italians would ever even conceive the idea, and what's the difference between Italy and the UK after all? Why so peculiarly selective in the outrage?

Luxxis

Chicoso wrote: »

Growing up in the UK i always thought about the history we were taught

Never much context to it

There has to be a price to pay for colonialism and slavery

What exactly?

JL555

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

The pyramids were not built by slaves. You may want to pick another example.

They were paid labourers. The Nile floods and farmers would work on them when they couldn't work on their land.

Irrelevant who built them, slaves were an important part of ancient Egyptian culture and as the Pyramids are the major artefacts from that period we must blow them to smithereens and then continue a rampage through all the ancient world, down with these symbols of oppression.
D'Oh... just realised, we're only allowed destroy symbols of white oppression and definitely not white's oppression against other whites.

fly_agaric

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Cecil Rhodes for the high jump too. Cathartic days for Britain...characther forming one might say.

I'm sure pulling down the old symbols + rubbing English noses in their filth feels really, really good & emowering for those living in UK whose ancestors were shát on by the old Empire. IMO nothing very good is going to come of it however. We've another stupid "Brexit" deadline looming at the end of the year month as well (if this year ever ends)! Hope we can stay well out of it here but their psychodramas always seem to end up involving Ireland too somewhere along the way.

FrancieBrady

Gradius wrote: »

No the collisseum wasn't always there. What about the countless other pieces of art and buildings and statuary and monuments in Rome, built specifically to glorify itself at the expense of mass murder?

What about the countless modern interpretations around Rome?

What about Venice, it was a hive of slavery and it still stands proud and is still benefitting off its often less than illustrious history?

Finally, how likely do you think it is that the Italians would ever even conceive the idea, and what's the difference between Italy and the UK after all? Why so peculiarly selective in the outrage?

Exactly...what about it?

That is the conversation that has been started. Is it right to celebrate the perpetrators?

Bannasidhe

Gradius wrote: »

You are deflecting, fruitlessly, back to why these idiots are doing what they're doing. That's not the contention, and never was.

Again, (again!), you can't tell people apart. They can.

You seem almost proud of the fact that you cant differentiate. They can.

More to the point, it's not that you cant. It is that you won't.

It is this refusal to see the obvious that is at the heart of the issue. Selective criteria, selective vision, selective criticism. Hypocrisy.

Actual slavery? No big deal.

Selective vision of centuries old slavery in only certain countries being torn down by selective people? Hypocrisy.

How can I be deflecting when it's you who first brought up this footwashing?

Now you are telling me I can't tell an Italian American from a Samoan American from an African American from a Polish American - you who only sees 'Europeans' and 'Africans'.

I am beginning to suspect that you may have an issue with 'Europeans' washing the feet of 'Africans' which has blinded you to it being Americans washing the feet of Americans. I also suspect that were it the other way around you might not be so concerned about what it all means. In fact, I don't think you would have even commented on it.

Americans who of their own free will are washing the feet of other Americans I may add. The reason they chose to do so is none of your business but if it's an attempt to heal long divisions I say good on 'em with their disgusting manky feet washing. For all you know they could be doing it to demonstrate that they are equal - you don't know because you haven't asked them.

Once again - would you prefer to see them at each other's throats?

Hunky Monster

Hunky Monster wrote: »

So there’s a time limit? How far back should we go? So the pyramids are historical value but this statue isn’t. I’m interested, how many years until something is considered “of historical worth” to you? How many years?

It was built at the turn of the 20th century, long after the man's death. Its plaque misrepresents his history. So nope, not remotely noteworthy as a historical object. Although I would be entirely fine with putting it in a museum where they actually give some actual history of the individual. Its current purpose whitewashes over the sort of man he actually was.

Gradius

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Exactly...what about it?

That is the conversation that has been started. Is it right to celebrate the perpetrators?

It is not a conversation. A conversation doesn't involve mobs of people breaking stuff, right or wrong.

Where is the outrage against Italy? Or any other country? Where are protesters breaking stuff besides anglosphere countries?

Why is it okay for thee but not ye?

It's because the outrage is not real.

Bannasidhe

dogbert27 wrote: »

Should we be demanding an apology from Algeria?

https://www.baltimore.ie/the-sack-of-baltimore

It seems to be lost over in England that it was the public of the British Empire who protested for the abolishment of the slave trade in the 1780's and finally came in 1807 with the Abolishment of Slave Trade Act.

Attacking and destroying history does not build an equal future.

Sure, Marat Rais the captain of that ship was Dutch, his name was originally Jan Jansen, he knew those waters because he fought in the Anglo-Dutch war and the people he took were English settlers on O'Driscoll land.

Shall we ask the Dutch to apologise to the English?

Or have the very colonisors people here were pointing to as the only people in Ireland who owned slaves suddenly become 'us' now?

The Barbary Slavers, btw, took slaves of all colours and races - they were equal opportunity exploiters of human misery.

nickkinneg

Gradius wrote: »

It is not a conversation. A conversation doesn't involve mobs of people breaking stuff, right or wrong.

Where is the outrage against Italy? Or any other country? Where are protesters breaking stuff besides anglosphere countries?

Why is it okay for thee but not ye?

It's because the outrage is not real.

Agreed - it does not involve mobs of people breaking stuff, running rampant in the midst of a global pandemic - holding a huge funeral for the poor man who died with security provided by Nation of Islam and attended by various hollywood celebs - and political speeches whilst other people couldnt attend their own loved ones funerals up to recently.

FrancieBrady

Gradius wrote: »

It is not a conversation. A conversation doesn't involve mobs of people breaking stuff, right or wrong.

Where is the outrage against Italy? Or any other country? Where are protesters breaking stuff besides anglosphere countries?

Why is it okay for thee but not ye?

It's because the outrage is not real.

What is your 'outrage'? Is it real?

How do you know how Italians feel?

All movements have a start point and I think this one will grow. The conversation will happen and celebratory statues will come down.
It is called progress. Not for somebody who is prpared tp gloss over this stuf, for whatever reason.

We did it here to many statues...we aren't worse off or devalued because we don't have to look at these symbols of oppression and enslavement anymore and nobody has forgotten what happened.

Gradius

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How can I be deflecting when it's you who first brought up this footwashing?

Now you are telling me I can't tell an Italian American from a Samoan American from an African American from a Polish American - you who only sees 'Europeans' and 'Africans'.

I am beginning to suspect that you may have an issue with 'Europeans' washing the feet of 'Africans' which has blinded you to it being Americans washing the feet of Americans. I also suspect that were it the other way around you might not be so concerned about what it all means. In fact, I don't think you would have even commented on it.

Americans who of their own free will are washing the feet of other Americans I may add. The reason they chose to do so is none of your business but if it's an attempt to heal long divisions I say good on 'em with their disgusting manky feet washing. For all you know they could be doing it to demonstrate that they are equal - you don't know because you haven't asked them.

Once again - would you prefer to see them at each other's throats?

You are point blank lying by now.

Yes I brought up the issue of those feet washers. That does not mean you can therefore assign whatever angle you like when it suits. It was about recognition, I stayed on the point of recognition throughout. It is you who feigns "vmconfusion" when it suits as to what's happening.

You who presented multiples of "how do you know who's who?!" then you proceed to say the exact opposite above.

And again fruitlessly trying to deflect on to"why" these people are doing what they are doing. Again.

Trying, again, to infer feelings on me about people, to score the "love is nice" kind of points with similarly starved minds.

You're a sneaky yoke with your squirming. Anyone else is free to read over the exchange and come to a sensible conclusion.

Gradius

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is your 'outrage'? Is it real?

How do you know how Italians feel?

All movements have a start point and I think this one will grow. The conversation will happen and celebratory statues will come down.
It is called progress. Not for somebody who is prpared tp gloss over this stuf, for whatever reason.

We did it here to many statues...we aren't worse off or devalued because we don't have to look at these symbols of oppression and enslavement anymore and nobody has forgotten what happened.

My "outrage" is that it's not real. Is that not apparent enough? Do you like people who talk sideways? I don't.

Again, a conversation that involves violent physicality is not a conversation. Perhaps I'll come round to your house and break the place up, you know, a " onversation"

And you didn't answer why one place and not the other, why one group and not the other. Or maybe you're hoping your style of conversations goes elsewhere. I guarantee you it won't. It'll stay in very selective places, much to noones surprise.

Anyway it was nice having a conversation with you. Goodnight!