Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

lawrencesummers

completedit wrote: »

I'm telling you now, future prediction is churches across Europe being bulldozed to the ground. In the past, it seemed intelligent people were atheists, now it's becoming mainstream and I can see a huge backlash in certain countries, especially if this trend of reversing the past becomes more prevalent.

What a great day that would be. A world without religion would solve a huge amount of problems, and would mark a great step in the evolution of humans, bring it on

kowloonkev

lawrencesummers wrote: »

What a great day that would be. A world without religion would solve a huge amount of problems, and would mark a great step in the evolution of humans, bring it on

What problems would it solve? If you have the slightest comprehension about human nature it will be interesting to hear your answer.

Paddygreen

Nermal wrote: »

Nothing I post can compare to the real world.

https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2020/0609/1146337-monuments-galway/

It wants a monument to Christopher Columbus in Galway to be taken down and is also seeking the removal of a plaque in Tuam, honouring Major Richard (Dick) Dowling, who served with the Confederate army in the US.

Fantastic proposal. If the council doesn’t remove these racist monuments then the workers of Galway should. Christopher Columbus is the root reason why America is racist, if he never discovered it he racists wouldn’t have moved there and Donald Trump would never have been born.

lawrencesummers

kowloonkev wrote: »

What problems would it solve? If you have the slightest comprehension about human nature it will be interesting to hear your answer.

What problems would a world without religion solve? Honestly???

Take all the issues in the world that are caused by religion and then strike a line through them. The damage that has been done in the name of religion is immense.

robinph

nullzero wrote: »

I'm sure rolling it down the road and the impact of the statue hitting the bottom after it was dropped in will have damaged it to some extent.

I would assume that the cost of fixing this statue up will be greater than just removing it and placing it in a museum.

Why does it need fixing?

It's not some great work of art. It's value now is in the damage that has been done to it and the story of why that happened and what triggered it to happen... And the changes that it then triggered around the country.

robinph

nullzero wrote: »

Yes.

I have stated repeatedly that I have no issue with removing statues for that reason.

I do have a problem with mobs pulling them down.

I have been consistent in saying this. Some people here seem intent on painting everyone who disagrees with any facet of what they say as a racist, it's not surprising, just disappointing.

So when would you predict the various statues to have started to come down if not for the one in Bristol having just been dumped in the harbour?

Considering that they have been petitioning for its removal for decades, and likewise with the one in Oxford (although I expect that will be more of a challenge to get down in one piece). There has been zero movement in actually getting these things down... Until a very well behaved protest in Bristol took things into their own hands.

Might it be that it would have taken decades more for anything to happen if not for one well behaved mob?

biko

The IRA was first with the blowing up of Nelson.
The decision to build the monument was taken by Dublin Corporation in the euphoria following Nelson's victory at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805.
During the Easter Rising an attempt was made to blow up the pillar but the explosives failed to ignite due to dampness

robinph

biko wrote: »

The IRA was first with the blowing up of Nelson.
The decision to build the monument was taken by Dublin Corporation in the euphoria following Nelson's victory at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805.
During the Easter Rising an attempt was made to blow up the pillar but the explosives failed to ignite due to dampness

I think removing the statues of previously glorified figures from previous rulers and generations pre dates the IRA by several thousand years.

Probably since a few years after humans first figured out that they liked putting up statues to commemorate people they soon afterwards decided that they didn't much like the statue someone else had put up.

Nermal

https://www.nbc12.com/2020/06/09/christopher-columbus-statue-torn-down-thrown-lake-by-protesters/

They will create nothing of value, nothing that will last, nothing that will be cherished.

Just coddled nihilistic vandals raging against the nearest symbol they can find of the civilisation that made them. Overgrown teenagers.

Nermal

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-52969447/winston-churchill-hero-or-villain

In the same intellectual vein as the ongoing Daily Mail campaign to divide the world into substances which either cause or cure cancer.

The BBC now invite you to classify historical figures as either heroes or villains.

Nermal

Nermal wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-52969447/winston-churchill-hero-or-villain

In the same intellectual vein as the ongoing Daily Mail campaign to divide the world into substances which either cause or cure cancer.

The BBC now invite you to classify historical figures as either heroes or villains.

They interview historians who explain that Churchill was somewhat racist and also goes into his role in the Bengal famine where millions died. Wait, so now you're just actively opposed to going deeper into the history of historical figures? You've referred to the title but ignored the content...

FrancieBrady

Gradius wrote: »

My "outrage" is that it's not real. Is that not apparent enough? Do you like people who talk sideways? I don't.

Again, a conversation that involves violent physicality is not a conversation. Perhaps I'll come round to your house and break the place up, you know, a " onversation"

And you didn't answer why one place and not the other, why one group and not the other. Or maybe you're hoping your style of conversations goes elsewhere. I guarantee you it won't. It'll stay in very selective places, much to noones surprise.

Anyway it was nice having a conversation with you. Goodnight!

The 'conversation' continues and another one takes the high jump.

https://mobile.twitter.com/chrisjudge/status/1270457720211152896



Seriously this is a good thing that is harming no-one except those who wish to venerate.
It is one of those history making events, those who didn't have a voice before are now being listened to.

whisky_galore

completedit wrote: »

I'm telling you now, future prediction is churches across Europe being bulldozed to the ground. In the past, it seemed intelligent people were atheists, now it's becoming mainstream and I can see a huge backlash in certain countries, especially if this trend of reversing the past becomes more prevalent.

A lot of Italian towns and cities are going to look very empty.

Heaps of very beautiful churches that only handfuls of people actually worship in. They're usually filled with tourists.

paw patrol

lawrencesummers wrote: »

What a great day that would be. A world without religion would solve a huge amount of problems, and would mark a great step in the evolution of humans, bring it on

lawrencesummers wrote: »

What problems would a world without religion solve? Honestly???

Take all the issues in the world that are caused by religion and then strike a line through them. The damage that has been done in the name of religion is immense.

I'll admit leaders have used religion as a rallying point but wars are over resources.

religion has its flaws due to flawed leadership but most religions offer a structure to live and a guide for decent living,
only a clown wouldn't recognise that. Societies are better for that.

Nermal

Deleted User wrote: »

You've referred to the title

Of course I have. It's the perfect summary of the intellectual and moral depth of this 'movement'.

Nermal

Nermal wrote: »

Of course I have. It's the perfect summary of the intellectual and moral depth of this 'movement'.

But have you actually listened to the balanced discussion from historians who are experts on Churchill? Is it too intellectual for you to listen to them?

Yellow_Fern

lawrencesummers wrote: »

What a great day that would be. A world without religion would solve a huge amount of problems, and would mark a great step in the evolution of humans, bring it on

I appreciate that religion isnt for everyone and isnt for you, but religion less socieities are no utopias. Look at China, PRC people gives the less to charity to than any other country. Czech Republic has plenty of Chrisitians but it has a lot of atheists too. It is a good place to live but it is not particularly better than religionous soceities either.

Paddygreen wrote: »

Fantastic proposal. If the council doesn’t remove these racist monuments then the workers of Galway should. Christopher Columbus is the root reason why America is racist, if he never discovered it he racists wouldn’t have moved there and Donald Trump would never have been born.

Bro you got to use sarcastic marks.

Deleted User wrote: »

But have you actually listened to the balanced discussion from historians who are experts on Churchill? Is it too intellectual for you to listen to them?

The anti Churchill concept baffles me. They blame the Bengal Famine on him despite the fact it was caused by the Japanese and the fact the adminstration and Churchill indicate that they were concerned about the famine. They in no way gloated over the deaths.

marieholmfan

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I appreciate that religion isnt for everyone and isnt for you, but religion less soceities ar no utopias.
Bro you got to use sarcastic marks.



The anti Churchill concept baffles me. They blame the Bengal Famine on him despite the fact it was caused by the Japanese and the fact the adminstration and Churchill indicate that they were concerned about the famine. They in no way gloated over the deaths.

I suppose the Japanese bombed the ships carrying rice from Bengal to Calcutta. Pull the other ; the British Empire is the greatest crime in human history and the English could make a start on expiating their guilt by admitting that.

ancapailldorcha

paw patrol wrote: »

I'll admit leaders have used religion as a rallying point but wars are over resources.

religion has its flaws due to flawed leadership but most religions offer a structure to live and a guide for decent living,
only a clown wouldn't recognise that. Societies are better for that.

Absurd. Look at the behaviour of the Christian Right in America for just one example. The sooner religion withers and dies, the better off this species will be.

Edgware

Paddygreen wrote: »

Fantastic proposal. If the council doesn’t remove these racist monuments then the workers of Galway should. Christopher Columbus is the root reason why America is racist, if he never discovered it he racists wouldn’t have moved there and Donald Trump would never have been born.

That's a very racist comment. You are insinuating that the Native Americans would not have the intelligence to develop ships or aircraft which would have enabled them to discover Europe.
Shame on you sir, shame on you

In any case Trump would have been born in Germany where the family would have found some outlet for his talents

seamus

whisky_galore wrote: »

A lot of Italian towns and cities are going to look very empty.

Heaps of very beautiful churches that only handfuls of people actually worship in. They're usually filled with tourists.

And this is why the notion that people will be going across Europe bulldozing buildings that they don't like, is absurd.

Monuments and buildings, do not on their own have an inherent aesthetic or historical value. Most statues and churches have been erected and toppled again over time.

Many have persisted, not because people still want to commemorate the individual, or because the religion is still strong, but because the work is recognised as having value. It's architecturally brilliant, the art work inside it is incredible, or it is the place of events of historical note.

Many churches are being repurposed or dropped. Not becuase anyone wants to erase history, but because they don't have any history of note. They are unremarkable buildings, built in the last two centuries, where nothing of massive significance has taken place. A church in Finglas has no more inherent historical value than a 1950s bungalow in rural Co. Mayo.

Edgware

Leo Varadkar has set his sights on Mary Lou's hero Sean Russell and thinks the statue in Fairview should be removed.
I'm sure all the Shinner bots will agree to the removal of the Nazis Collaborator statue as well as all the memorials designed by the Breton Nazis collaborator

marieholmfan

Edgware wrote: »

Leo Varadkar has set his sights on Mary Lou's hero Sean Russell and thinks the statue in Fairview should be removed.
I'm sure all the Shinner bots will agree to the removal of the Nazis Collaborator statue as well as all the memorials designed by the Brecon Nazis collaborator

Absolutely not. If the Nazis had won the war there would now be a united , Gaelic speaking Ireland. The British are not our friends ; no matter how much "King's Hospital" old boy claims they are.

Which King by the way Tiernan O'Rourke or Brian Boru?

Edgware

marieholmfan wrote: »

Absolutely not. If the Nazis had won the war there would now be a united , Gaelic speaking Ireland. The British are not our friends ; no matter how much "King's Hospital" old boy claims they are.

Which King by the way Tiernan O'Rourke or Brian Boru?

More likely a United German speaking Ireland

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

They interview historians who explain that Churchill was somewhat racist and also goes into his role in the Bengal famine where millions died. Wait, so now you're just actively opposed to going deeper into the history of historical figures? You've referred to the title but ignored the content...

Many Universities have 'Heroes or Villains' modules where 'Great Men' (which is a term used for that branch of History that looks at 'great men' - some women but not many) are discussed in terms of the public perception of them (the 'everybody knows') and the facts (what it says in primary sources).

The point being to get students to think about it, discuss, question the 'everybody knows', and demonstrate the importance of going to the source material rather than accepting second hand interpretations.

The lecturer will neither praise or condemn. Just lay out what is generally believed (be that hero or villain) and compare it to what is in contemporary documents.

It goes something like "xxxx is believed to have done *'good' or 'bad' thing* however when we look at this document we see that xxxx was in fact *info that contradicts what is believed*

The students are left to decide for themselves if they think the hero or villain status is justified. It is also hammered home that the role of the historian is not to judge, the role of the historian is to lay out the facts as supported by the primary sources. It doesn't matter if they were heroes or villains, it matters that what we know is based on evidence not myth.

It's an excellent teaching method.

I had to 'do' Cromwell in front of 500 students in an Irish university - which was... interesting. I also did Walter Ralaigh in front of 300 students in an English university.

seamus

marieholmfan wrote: »

Absolutely not. If the Nazis had won the war there would now be a united , Gaelic speaking Ireland. The British are not our friends ; no matter how much "King's Hospital" old boy claims they are.

Which King by the way Tiernan O'Rourke or Brian Boru?

You're as naive as Sean Russell was.

One could argue that Ireland could be a single state with Irish as a flourishing language, but it would also be a state under the federal auspices of the Third Reich, with German as the official language and a caste system placing those of Germanic blood at the top of the pyramid, and Jewish and non-white people as vermin.

marieholmfan

seamus wrote: »

You're as naive as Sean Russell was.

One could argue that Ireland could be a single state with Irish as a flourishing language, but it would also be a state under the federal auspices of the Third Reich, with German as the official language and a caste system placing those of Germanic blood at the top of the pyramid, and Jewish and non-white people as vermin.

There would be no Jewish people or non white people in Ireland.
That would now be history - the crime of 70 years ago.

The role of the Gaelic Irish (putatively) is less clear - either full citizens of the the 3rd Reich (if there even would have been any citizens as we understand the term) or else enserfed helots. However the language would have been revived.

statesaver

Gone with the Wind cancelled HBO Max remove it. Fr. Ted next ?

lawrencesummers

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I appreciate that religion isnt for everyone and isnt for you, but religion less socieities are no utopias. Look at China, PRC people gives the less to charity to than any other country. Czech Republic has plenty of Chrisitians but it has a lot of atheists too. It is a good place to live but it is not particularly better than religionous soceities either.
Bro you got to use sarcastic marks.



The anti Churchill concept baffles me. They blame the Bengal Famine on him despite the fact it was caused by the Japanese and the fact the adminstration and Churchill indicate that they were concerned about the famine. They in no way gloated over the deaths.

China is not a religion-less society.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Many Universities have 'Heroes or Villains' modules where 'Great Men' (which is a term used for that branch of History that looks at 'great men' - some women but not many) are discussed in terms of the public perception of them (the 'everybody knows') and the facts (what it says in primary sources).

The point being to get students to think about it, discuss, question the 'everybody knows', and demonstrate the importance of going to the source material rather than accepting second hand interpretations.

The lecturer will neither praise or condemn. Just lay out what is generally believed (be that hero or villain) and compare it to what is in contemporary documents.

It goes something like "xxxx is believed to have done *'good' or 'bad' thing* however when we look at this document we see that xxxx was in fact *info that contradicts what is believed*

The students are left to decide for themselves if they think the hero or villain status is justified. It is also hammered home that the role of the historian is not to judge, the role of the historian is to lay out the facts as supported by the primary sources. It doesn't matter if they were heroes or villains, it matters that what we know is based on evidence not myth.

It's an excellent teaching method.

I had to 'do' Cromwell in front of 500 students in an Irish university - which was... interesting. I also did Walter Ralaigh in front of 300 students in an English university.

Yep that's pretty much what I loved about studying history. You study topics and individuals in detail. Then you argue a case, even if it doesn't necessarily follow the most popular viewpoints as long as it's well argued with proper sourcing. You'll tend to be rewarded for it.

That poster didn't actually listen to the content which is a pity, might have learned something. I also find it pretty refreshing that they're finally discussing such figures beyond simply their most major moments.

statesaver wrote: »

Gone with the Wind cancelled HBO Max remove it. Fr. Ted next ?

It's being put up with a disclaimer on the background to how it handled race. So it's not permanently gone.