Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

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nullzero wrote: »

I had heartburn last night so I took a rennie, which is made by Bayer who were interwoven into the third Reich, so I was suppose I was being a Nazi again.

To be fair Bayer's merger with Monsanto is the stuff of environmental nightmares, not certain but think they pulled 'roundup' from all shelves in the US, due to slight backlog of pending patient 'C'laims lined up.

J&J (not sure where they orignate), might, have done something similar with their (cough, cough) talc{esq} (cough) powder.

Bannasidhe

robinph wrote: »

You forgot IBM, which basically means we all have to stop using all computers and the internet now as Facebook is about to implode on itself. And all the rockets that put satellites into orbit are now not allowed either and the space station will be landing in a river nearby any moment now as it decides that it can't continue with the shame of how it got there.

:eek:

And Krupps, Siemens, Opel, Nestle, Deutsche Bank, AEG, Coca-Cola (in particular Fanta), Audi, BMW, IG Farben, Mercedes Benz...

All erased from history by leftist mobs.

Oh the kitchen appliances we could have had!
The freeze dried coffee and chocolate we never tasted.
The cars that never were.

All gone.

ohnonotgmail

Bannasidhe wrote: »

:eek:

And Krupps, Siemens, Opel, Nestle, Deutsche Bank, AEG, Coca-Cola (in particular Fanta), Audi, BMW, IG Farben, Mercedes Benz...

All erased from history by leftist mobs.

Oh the kitchen appliances we could have had!
The freeze dried coffee and chocolate we never tasted.
The cars that never were.

All gone.

fanta was invented by the nazis because they couldn't get hold of the cola syrup required to make coke.

(the explanation is not for your benefit Bannasidhe, i'm sure you know that already)

Gregor Samsa

ricero wrote: »

Deleting history is a truly dangerous precedent. Its quite frightening how these "woke" nazis are allowed get away with this.

History is not deleted by a statue being torn down, no more than it is created by one put up. History happens completely independently of statues (although there’s some irony in the events surrounding this statue being an actual part of history). Statues going up or not, or down or not, are a resulting consequence of whether we regard that event or person in history as being worthy of public commemoration. Being worthy of public commemoration is different to history.

The irony is that the ones decrying "history being deleted" are often the ones that don't want to face up to history and completely ignore its consequences in the first place. It’s like the history doesn’t exist for them, which is far closer to deleting history than pulling down a statue is – which is an act of confronting history and dealing with it.

nullzero

Megan Most Octagon wrote: »

To be fair Bayer's merger with Monsanto is the stuff of environmental nightmares, not certain but think they pulled 'roundup' from all shelves in the US, due to slight backlog of pending patient 'C'laims lined up.

J&J (not sure where they orignate), might, have done something similar with their (cough, cough) talc{esq} (cough) powder.

A veritable who's who of distilled human evil there.

Christy42

ricero wrote: »

Deleting history is a truly dangerous precedent. Its quite frightening how these "woke" nazis are allowed get away with this.

I read today that the critically acclaimed and iconic film "gone with the wind" has now been cancelled. Its absurd.

And round and round we go!

How many times does it have to be said that no history has been deleted. Indeed more people have been informed about history.

Actually if you are going to call people nazis what piece of history has been deleted because I am sure you have thought this one through.

I feel like I should have this copied somewhere and ready to be pasted again soon enough

Bannasidhe

THE_SHEEP wrote: »

No place in a " Democracy " for conduct like this , or for the people who take part in / encourage / condone such behavior .

We'll just gloss over the inconvenient fact that democracy as we know it came about because people protested - and were dismissed as violent mobs and imprisoned, transported, killed by the authorities.

It all started when a violent mob cut off the head of a man who insisted God had given him the right to absolute rule.
And then the French did the same thing to hammer home the point.
Soon there were 'violent mobs' demanding outrageous things like a vote.

Take the Chartists for example - and unruly mob calling for:

A vote for every man twenty-one years of age, of sound mind, and not undergoing punishment for a crime.

The secret ballot to protect the elector in the exercise of his vote.

No property qualification for Members of Parliament to allow the constituencies to return the man of their choice.

Payment of Members, enabling tradesmen, working men, or other persons of modest means to leave or interrupt their livelihood to attend to the interests of the nation.

Equal constituencies, securing the same amount of representation for the same number of electors, instead of allowing less populous constituencies to have as much or more weight than larger ones.

Annual Parliamentary elections, thus presenting the most effectual check to bribery and intimidation, since no purse could buy a constituency under a system of universal manhood suffrage in every twelve months.

Such anarchy. Shouldn't be allowed. We should all be content with the Feudal System and an absolute monarchy!

markodaly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Bit hyperbolic there Mark.

Have the vintners assoc started lobbying to have Fr Matthew's statue removed from Patrick Street in Cork because he advocated temperance?

Interesting you mentioned Fr Matthew as his views on slavery appears mixed at best.

In order to avoid upsetting these anti-abolitionist friends in the US, he snubbed an invitation to publicly condemn chattel slavery, sacrificing his friendship with that movement. He defended his position by pointing out that there was nothing in the scripture that prohibited slavery. He was condemned by many on the abolitionist side, including the former slave and abolitionist Frederick Douglass who had received the pledge from Mathew in Cork in 1845. Douglass felt "grieved, humbled and mortified" by Mathew's decision to ignore slavery while campaigning in the US and "wondered how being a Catholic priest should inhibit him from denouncing the sin of slavery as much as the sin of intemperance."[17] Douglass felt it was his duty to now "denounce and expose the conduct of Father Mathew".[18]

So, yes off with his head or something like that.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not deleted, it's going to be put in a museum....

Gone With The Wind is temporarily removed from HBO Maxx, a disclaimer about the views of the time is being added, other films already have this.

Wonder how many people complaining have actually watched 'Gone with the Wind'?

Bannasidhe

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

History is not deleted by a statue being torn down, no more than it is created by one put up. .

There are huge historical tomes dedicated to the erection of statues.
Volumes of them.
Whole libraries.
Just about putting up statues.

Oh..wait... that's not true. It's mostly just a few footnotes and a couple of photos.

The tomes are about the arguments for and against the statues, who paid for them, why they wanted them, who didn't want them... and in some cases who got rid of them.

Gregor Samsa

THE_SHEEP wrote: »

No place in a " Democracy " for conduct like this , or for the people who take part in / encourage / condone such behavior .

Funny how many of those in the US who condemn the mob and destruction of property in the BLM protests are exactly the ones who venerate the mob and destruction of property in the Boston Tea Party. And that mob was protesting against the mere imposition of taxes, not systemic racism and physical brutality against human beings.

Shows where their priorities lie.

Bannasidhe

markodaly wrote: »

Interesting you mentioned Fr Matthew as his views on slavery appears mixed at best.



So, yes off with his head or something like that.

And yet there he stands.
Unmolested (apart from the surgical facemask he is currently sporting).
On Pana.

A man who didn't make a fortune from selling people but bottled out on actually condemning it. Which is nearly the same thing as actually selling human beings isn't it?

In a hyperbolic kinda way.

Bannasidhe

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Are there any good books you'd recommend?

@ancapailldorca

Found one!

I haven't read it yet myself but a colleague highly recommended it. I have just ordered a copy.

Ireland, Slavery and Anti-Slavery: 1612-1865 by Nini Rodgers.

https://www.palgrave.com/gp/book/9780333770993

OneMoreBabadee

Family Guy and South Park will surely be next for the chopping block.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

There are huge historical tomes dedicated to the erection of statues.
Volumes of them.
Whole libraries.
Just about putting up statues.

Oh..wait... that's not true. It's mostly just a few footnotes and a couple of photos.

The tomes are about the arguments for and against the statues, who paid for them, why they wanted them, who didn't want them... and in some cases who got rid of them.

Weirdly I actually think the Robert E Lee ones are of significance in the sense that they illustrate the jabs that racists took during the Jim Crowe era. But should be lobbed in a museum that actually highlights the horrible purpose they served.

Paddygreen

mick087 wrote: »

Your going to find over the years many films comdies etc will vanish.
The western world is changing at a fast rate. For my generation maybe bad for the young generation under 25 maybe good better.

The world we are creating will be fantastic bruv. Me and my compatriots literally have the task of wiping the slate clean and starting again with new normals, modifications to people’s behaviour and a more progressive model where dues will have to be paid to make reparations for our white privileged, gender stereotyping, homophobic, environmentally destructive, toxic masculine and racist past. 2020 is Year zero, time to start again. Namaste. Ford and ford drivers are in my crosshairs atm.

ohnonotgmail

parody really is dead

markodaly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And yet there he stands.

The Edward Colston statue was standing there this day last week. In this new age of cleansing the past, it seems reasonable that the Fr. Matthew's statue will be taken down since he refused to stand with the abolitionists.

If there was a motion to take it down, would you support it?

El_Duderino 09

US2 wrote: »

“... every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.” George Orwell, 1984

That's grand because those things aren't happening. Streets are renamed all the time so that's nothing to worry about and history is still being written and recorded. The issue is that MORE information is coming to light about a historical character.

Lads, Orwell would be spinning in his grave if he knew his work on actual totalitarianism was being thrown around willy-nilly.

StudentDad

Should we tear down the Colosseum? We all know the Roman games weren't exactly a bastion of fairness and equality. How about the Vatican? The Roman Catholic Church doesn't have a clean record in fairness and equality either.

Taking down these monuments is a drive towards ignorance. Obliterating the past isn't the way forward.

El_Duderino 09

OneMoreBabadee wrote: »

Family Guy and South Park will surely be next for the chopping block.

Yeah that would be a great test of your idea. And the existence of those shows must be a real annoyance to those who want to claim everything race related is being destroyed.

South Park does great satire. Maybe someday the issues it deals with won't exist anymore and it won't make sense anymore. But right now it's going strong as a satirical social commentary.

Bannasidhe

markodaly wrote: »

The Edward Colston statue was standing there this day last week. In this new age of cleansing the past, it seems reasonable that the Fr. Matthew's statue will be taken down since he refused to stand with the abolitionists.

If there was a motion to take it down, would you support it?

Why would there be a motion to take it down?
Who would place this motion?
Where can I read it? I never agree to anything until I have read it.

Is it celebrating the magnificence of his generosity and how he spent the fortune he made from slavery benefitting Cork?

I must confess it's been ages since I read the inscription as I generally don't rely on statues for my historical knowledge. I find books are easier to get on the bus.

Speaking of busses - how would Cork people know where to get the bus without 'The Statue'?

But sure - let's compare people who didn't condemn slavery and place them on the same footing as actual slave traders and then complain about mob rule and lack of nuance.

Can we do people who buy clothes and those who profit from sweatshops next? They are, after all, much the same thing. Apparently.

SeanW

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

Funny how many of those in the US who condemn the mob and destruction of property in the BLM protests are exactly the ones who venerate the mob and destruction of property in the Boston Tea Party. And that mob was protesting against the mere imposition of taxes, not systemic racism and physical brutality against human beings.

Shows where their priorities lie.

Wrong. Are you sure you're not writing history for the 1619 Project?

The motto of the tea partiers was: No taxation without representation. The colonies had no say whatsoever in the laws that affected them and London acted accordingly.
The Boston Tea Party was a response to edicts from London which severe effects on the Colonies but over which they had no say. Racially, they were not as "woke" as today, but your comparison would be a little bit like condemning the 1916 revolutionaries in Ireland for not campaigning for gay marriage. Different times, different (perceived) problems.

BTW Massachusetts had the first formal abolitionist rulings in the US.

Massachusetts took a much more radical position. In 1783, its Supreme Court, in the case of Commonwealth v. Nathaniel Jennison, reaffirmed the case of Brom and Bett v. Ashley, which held that even slaves were people that had a constitutional right to liberty. This gave freedom to slaves, effectively abolishing slavery.

Cupatae

StudentDad wrote: »

Should we tear down the Colosseum? We all know the Roman games weren't exactly a bastion of fairness and equality. How about the Vatican? The Roman Catholic Church doesn't have a clean record in fairness and equality either.

Taking down these monuments is a drive towards ignorance. Obliterating the past isn't the way forward.

Equality is an absolute fantasy , they can March till they are blue in the face there will still be poor black folks in the morning there will never come a day when nobody wants for nothing , it's just how the human race is.

At best they can change police brutality , but other than they will just have to get out and start at the bottom and graft and there's no guarantee of success.

But of course the snowflakes want a fairytale land where we all live in perfect harmony and everyone has everything and we all live happily ever after.

Yurt2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

fanta was invented by the nazis because they couldn't get hold of the cola syrup required to make coke.

Well not exactly. There was an embargo on Germany, so the German arm of Coca Cola couldn't get their hands on the syrup from the US or other allied countries. They came up with Fanta instead.

I don't think the Nazi party were preoccupied with carbonated beverages, they had rather more dastardly things on their mind.

robinph

Useful thread with some more details about Colston and the other people who might have potentially been more worthy of a statue at the time.

https://twitter.com/KateWilliamsme/status/1270717429820190728

Only one of the other benefactors to the city who's name I recognise is Canynge who has a couple of small residential roads named after him, but the only reason I recognise that is due to a pretty brutal murder that happened on one of those streets a few years ago which ended up making national news and became a BBC Drama.

Bannasidhe

robinph wrote: »

Useful thread with some more details about Colston and the other people who might have potentially been more worthy of a statue at the time.

https://twitter.com/KateWilliamsme/status/1270717429820190728

Only one of the other benefactors to the city who's name I recognise is Canynge who has a couple of small residential roads named after him, but the only reason I recognise that is due to a pretty brutal murder that happened on one of those streets a few years ago which ended up making national news and became a BBC Drama.

Thanks for that. Some very interesting background to who and when.

markodaly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why would there be a motion to take it down?

I see you ignored the question and went on a lengthy but ultimately obtuse monologue.
Seeing as you didn't answer the question the first time out, I won't ask again, as I feel all you are interested in is arguing to the point of absurdity.

Gregor Samsa

SeanW wrote: »

The motto of the tea partiers was: No taxation without representation. The colonies had no say whatsoever in the laws that affected them and London acted accordingly.
The Boston Tea Party was a response to edicts from London which severe effects on the Colonies but over which they had no say. Racially, they were not as "woke" as today, but your comparison would be a little bit like condemning the 1916 revolutionaries in Ireland for not campaigning for gay marriage. Different times, different (perceived) problems.

You seem to be confusing issues. I said nothing about the mob in 1773's stance on race.

I said that the current venerators of the actions of that Tea Party mob - there's a whole US conservative movement named after them - are counted among those that are condemning those engaged in the contemporary protesting of as not fit to be part of democratic society. Despite the fact that – as you rightly point out – US democratic society was created in part on the back of such “mob destruction of property”.

I'm talking about the validity of the means of protest, and the double standard applied to it by some. One can't actively celebrate US democracy being born out of violent protest against oppression, and then claim that violent protest against oppression is an absolute afront to US democracy.

mick087

Paddygreen wrote: »

The world we are creating will be fantastic bruv. Me and my compatriots literally have the task of wiping the slate clean and starting again with new normals, modifications to people’s behaviour and a more progressive model where dues will have to be paid to make reparations for our white privileged, gender stereotyping, homophobic, environmentally destructive, toxic masculine and racist past. 2020 is Year zero, time to start again. Namaste. Ford and ford drivers are in my crosshairs atm.

Thats what the Natzis said wipe the slate clean, Thats what the French and Russian Revolution said, Its what every good or bad cause always says, lets wipe the slate clean and move forward. In relaity you wont have a fantastic world to enough people want the same.