Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

Cupatae

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think a lot of people have lost perspective on all this. They pretend not to get the difference between current racism ans historical. I know Irish people were discriminated against in the past but we're not now so I take offense at old anti Irish jokes. If Irish people were still descriminated against then you can bet the same posters would be much more likely to understand.

The real pity is the lack of ability to empathise. And the straining to pretend they're equal victims. Pretending Brian Boru slaving a thousand years ago is similar to the African slave trade.

In case anyone needs the destination pointed out, the difference is that black people today still experience racism in places like the UK and US, stemming back to those days. Im.u decided on whether these posters genuinely don't/can't get it or if they see just pretending they cant understand.

Are black people still slaves today or am I missing something ? On one hand you dismiss what happened to the Irish while overstating what's happening to current black people,

I'm not saying there isn't still descrinination against black people in the world but I think it's vastly overstate right now .

mick087

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Do you genuinely not know the answer to that question? Serious question I'll answer it for you if you don't know.

I dont know the answer to this.


How do you if at all possible discriminate slave traders.
Would they not all be classed as evil, greedy, inhumane the worst examples of man kinds past and precent.

Bannasidhe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If you think slavery in Europe “was very much a matter of one group enslaving another and the colour of their respective skins was the determining factor” then you are completely ignorant of the history of slavery in Europe.

Shall I clarify - The Triangular Trade of the 16th to 19th centuries was based on the transportation of slaves from the Sub-Saharan region of Africa to European, and later American, colonies. Unlike earlier examples of slavery in Europe, e.g. Roman, this trade was race based and various race theories were concocted to justify why Caucasians, in particular those of Germanic origin, were deemed to be inherently superior to Negros.

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

Are black people still slaves today or am I missing something ? On one hand you dismiss what happened to the Irish while overstating what's happening to current black people,

I'm not saying there isn't still descrinination against black people in the world but I think it's vastly overstate right now .

I think the issue is that you can draw a straight line from African slave trade to America to American civil war, to abolition of slavery to segregation in southern states, Lynching, human rights abuses right up to modern day grievances.

All this talk of Brian Both and slavery is just a deflection and I fail to see the purpose.

El_Duderino 09

mick087 wrote: »

I dont know the answer to this.

OK. The difference is that black people today still experience racism in places like the UK and US and others, stemming back to those days. An uninterrupted era of discrimination based on race. Granted, things have improved from slavery to the much less acute type of racism black people experience today.

The descendants of people enslaved by Boru aren't in that position. I could be a descendant of the enslaved, or a slavery but it makes absolutely no difference to me because I'm not in any impacted by that history. If the descendants of Boru's slaves were still discriminated against today, then there would be a good argument for taking down a Boru statue.

Does that make sense?

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

I think the issue is that you can draw a straight line from African slave trade to America to American civil war, to abolition of slavery to segregation in southern states, Lynching, human rights abuses right up to modern day grievances.

All this talk of Brian Both and slavery is just a deflection and I fail to see the purpose.

So who is the modern day enemy then? When at BLM Rally's they say don't slip up that's what they want who is this "they" they speak of ? Is white people ? Is it the police who ? The speech's in the us kinda make sense but the ones in the UK for the most part are bandwagon nosense..

I think the modern day greiveneces while are certainly real they are vastly overblown , racism in the western world is no where near what it was. And as a society we have come on leaps and bounds.

El_Duderino 09

Cupatae wrote: »

Are black people still slaves today or am I missing something ? On one hand you dismiss what happened to the Irish while overstating what's happening to current black people,

I'm not saying there isn't still descrinination against black people in the world but I think it's vastly overstate right now .

OK. So we agree there's still discrimination against black people stemming back to those slaves. Is there still discrimination against Irish people stemming back to those slaves Boru took?

Quantum Erasure

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Let's clean up our own house before we start pointing the finger at others.

was there much black slaves in Ireland? or slaves in general

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

So who is the modern day enemy then? When at BLM Rally's they say don't slip up that's what they want who is this "they" they speak of ? Is white people ? Is it the police who ? The speech's in the us kinda make sense but the ones in the UK for the most part are bandwagon nosense..

I think the modern day greiveneces while are certainly real they are vastly overblown , racism in the western world is no where near what it was. And as a society we have come on leaps and bounds.

We certainly have come on that is for sure, but i
I'm not a black person living in America so I'm not to to presume to understand all their lives in detail.

The police brutality is awful and while not exclusively at blacks it does seem disproportionate to that community.

There is all the other inequality and poverty that black communities suffer. Some say it is their own fault but I believe it is much more complex than that.

Racism is insidious and ultimately damaging to everyone in a society.

I don't claim to have easy answers but status quo in the states is not working.

Cupatae

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. So we agree there's still discrimination against black people stemming back to those slaves. Is there still discrimination against Irish people stemming back to those slaves Boru took?

There's descrinination against every race, by every race.. it's just how it is, rather than attach blame to specific individuals, alot of the time BLM blames "the white man" all the while asking for equality.

Black people do not have a monopoly on descrimination , I dunno why ur asking me about boru I haven't a notion what the argument is there I didn't bring that up.

If your asking me is there still descrimination against Irish people ? I'd say ya there is in certain places. The no dogs no blacks no irish signs aren't long gone.

Do you think black people are discriminated against by everyone , everyday ? Because that's sure what it sounds like at this stage.

SafeSurfer

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Shall I clarify - The Triangular Trade of the 16th to 19th centuries was based on the transportation of slaves from the Sub-Saharan region of Africa to European, and later American, colonies. Unlike earlier examples of slavery in Europe, e.g. Roman, this trade was race based and various race theories were concocted to justify why Caucasians, in particular those of Germanic origin, were deemed to be inherently superior to Negros.

So you are clarifying that what you said about slavery in Europe being about one race enslaving another was incorrect and that European “race slavery” represents a fraction of “European slavery” both in terms of years of operation and number of slaves?

Thanks for the clarification.

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

We certainly have come on that is for sure, but i
I'm not a black person living in America so I'm not to to presume to understand all their lives in detail.

The police brutality is awful and while not exclusively at blacks it does seem disproportionate to that community.

There is all the other inequality and poverty that black communities suffer. Some say it is their own fault but I believe it is much more complex than that.

Racism is insidious and ultimately damaging to everyone in a society.

I don't claim to have easy answers but status quo in the states is not working.

I agree police brutality and I've said it from the start is what really needs to be changed in America the police force there nearly operates with a clan mentality rather than be for all they have over time managed to create a distinct "Us vs Them" situation.

I think poverty in the US affects everyone and the system there is brutal, people are let fall thru the cracks way too easy be they black white or purple, that's a massive issue but certainly can't be attached to just one race..I'd say the poor white or Latino lad on the streets would certainly have a good case.

There is no easy answer but out of all the things from this situation I think the best thing that can happen is more accountability for police officers and a move away from the wild west mentality of shoot first ask questions later.

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

We certainly have come on that is for sure, but i
I'm not a black person living in America so I'm not to to presume to understand all their lives in detail.

The police brutality is awful and while not exclusively at blacks it does seem disproportionate to that community.

There is all the other inequality and poverty that black communities suffer. Some say it is their own fault but I believe it is much more complex than that.

Racism is insidious and ultimately damaging to everyone in a society.

I don't claim to have easy answers but status quo in the states is not working.

I agree police brutality and I've said it from the start is what really needs to be changed in America the police force there nearly operates with a clan mentality rather than be for all they have over time managed to create a distinct "Us vs Them" situation.

I think poverty in the US affects everyone and the system there is brutal, people are let fall thru the cracks way too easy be they black white or purple, that's a massive issue but certainly can't be attached to just one race..I'd say the poor white or Latino lad on the streets would certainly have a good case.

There is no easy answer but out of all the things from this situation I think the best thing that can happen is more accountability for police officers and a move away from the wild west mentality of shoot first ask questions later.

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

We certainly have come on that is for sure, but i
I'm not a black person living in America so I'm not to to presume to understand all their lives in detail.

The police brutality is awful and while not exclusively at blacks it does seem disproportionate to that community.

There is all the other inequality and poverty that black communities suffer. Some say it is their own fault but I believe it is much more complex than that.

Racism is insidious and ultimately damaging to everyone in a society.

I don't claim to have easy answers but status quo in the states is not working.

I agree police brutality and I've said it from the start is what really needs to be changed in America the police force there nearly operates with a clan mentality rather than be for all they have over time managed to create a distinct "Us vs Them" situation.

I think poverty in the US affects everyone and the system there is brutal, people are let fall thru the cracks way too easy be they black white or purple, that's a massive issue but certainly can't be attached to just one race..I'd say the poor white or Latino lad on the streets would certainly have a good case.

There is no easy answer but out of all the things from this situation I think the best thing that can happen is more accountability for police officers and a move away from the wild west mentality of shoot first ask questions later.

mick087

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. The difference is that black people today still experience racism in places like the UK and US and others, stemming back to those days. An uninterrupted era of discrimination based on race. Granted, things have improved from slavery to the much less acute type of racism black people experience today.

The descendants of people enslaved by Boru aren't in that position. I could be a descendant of the enslaved, or a slavery but it makes absolutely no difference to me because I'm not in any impacted by that history. If the descendants of Boru's slaves were still discriminated against today, then there would be a good argument for taking down a Boru statue.

Does that make sense?

Myself would not be able to seperate such people from any era all was the worst of mankind.

Lets not white wash the misery white people have also gone through.

Dont make this Black or White make it all colours of the human race.

Cupatae

Dunno why that posted multiple times won't let me delete em

Danzy

The Priests now are looking for Séan Russell's statue to be taken down.

Thin wedge.

El_Duderino 09

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

was there much black slaves in Ireland? or slaves in general

Not black slaves but slavery was pretty common back then. Enslavement was often the result of losing wars. Vikings were big slave traders. St Partick was Brough to Ireland as a slave, captured on a raid over to Wales. I don't know how common they were but they were definitely a thing.

There were other cultures like the Greek who had far more slaves than citizens. The Spartans and their whole region called Lacedaemon, was a culture where only the slaves did the labour. The actual citizen men were all professional soldiers as they thought that was the only noble profession and slaves freed them up to pursue it. This is about 2000 years ago.

Slavery didn't start with black sla es from Africa. They are just a group who still experience discrimination stemming back to the time they were enslaved.

statesaver

https://twitter.com/lporiginalg/status/1270776238475370497/photo/1

mick087

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

was there much black slaves in Ireland? or slaves in general

Apparently Dublin was the slave capital of the known world in viking times. 1 in 10 people was a slave in Ireland at the time. These was european slaves not from Africa.

Not sure how true accurate this is but seems truth in the story.

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

I agree police brutality and I've said it from the start is what really needs to be changed in America the police force there nearly operates with a clan mentality rather than be for all they have over time managed to create a distinct "Us vs Them" situation.

I think poverty in the US affects everyone and the system there is brutal, people are let fall thru the cracks way too easy be they black white or purple, that's a massive issue but certainly can't be attached to just one race..I'd say the poor white or Latino lad on the streets would certainly have a good case.

There is no easy answer but out of all the things from this situation I think the best thing that can happen is more accountability for police officers and a move away from the wild west mentality of shoot first ask questions later.

Absolutely I agree with all that. But one group protesting their rights/grievances doesn't negate other grievances.

People supporting BLM could also object strongly to separating families at the Mexican border or the way native Americans are treated.

No one protest can cover all the injustice in the world. However that is a way that is used to diminish a protest, accuse it of hypocrisy because they don't tackle all injustice.


There is a bit of bandwagon jumping with protests in Dublin, they should not have happened, but what happens in America is newsworthy because America is a globally important country.

El_Duderino 09

mick087 wrote: »

Myself would not be able to seperate such people from any era all was the worst of mankind.

Lets not white wash the misery white people have also gone through.

Dont make this Black or White make it all colours of the human race.

OK. But did you get the distinction you asked about? The main differences being the fact that one group is still experiencing the discrimination and the other isn't?

Bannasidhe

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

was there much black slaves in Ireland? or slaves in general

Yes, there were slaves in Ireland going back before records began - these would have mainly been those captured in raids etc. The Norse in Dublin had a slave market.

In terms of black slaves so far 80 people with addresses in Ireland have been identified as slave owners when owning slaves was made illegal in the British Empire.
Many would like to claim all of these people were 'British' but given that a direct descendent of Gráinne Ní Mháille was one of the 80 so far identified that is not true. It may be true that they were Anglo-Irish but if we are going to say that makes them not 'Irish' then neither were Wilde, Yeats, Pearse, Tone.

This article in History Ireland that shows there were 'Irish' Irish directly involved in the slave trade - as ships captains and traders.

https://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/the-irish-and-the-atlantic-slave-trade/

Given that the purpose of using African slaves was to harvest crops in climates white people found hard to tolerate - e.g. sugar cane in the West Indies, cotton/tobacco in the southern United States there was no economic impetus to have African slaves as labourers in Ireland - there were enough poverty stricken peasants to do the work. Ditto in the factories in England - e.g.slaves picked the cotton in the America, it was shipped to places like Manchester where appallingly paid workers (including children) manufactured cloth.

In short - slaves were used when no other form of cheap labour was available.

There were, however, people of African origin in Ireland usually as servants in the houses of the nobility - estimates are between 1k-3k. Whether or not slavery was technically legal within the United Kingdom was unclear and in 1772 a legal judgement (Somerset V Stewart) held that chattel slavery was unsupported by the Common Law.
This may, or may not, have encouraged the 13 British colonies in North America to seek to break ties with the empire.

In 1807 the trade in slaves was outlawed in the British Empire, however owning slaves wasn't outlawed until 1833.

I hope that answers your question. It is a complicated topic not given to soundbites or cut and dried answers.

Cupatae

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. But did you get the distinction you asked about? The main differences being the fact that one group is still experiencing the discrimination and the other isn't?

That's a pretty broad statement one group is experiencing no discrimination....

Descrimination is all over the place and no race is exempt from it.

Example.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberian_nationality_law

mick087

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. But did you get the distinction you asked about? The main differences being the fact that one group is still experiencing the discrimination and the other isn't?

I carnt answer that because i have never lived in the U.S.A.


There is without doubt discrimination in Ireland for anyone thats not Irish.
Thats Black eastern european Asian.

I dont beieve discrimination in todays Ireland comes from slavery it comes from your ownself. When i lived in London i lived amongst so many people from so many countries. That experience people educated me that white people are the same as red indians, rich people go the loo same as me. That we all have a repessed history at some point in history.

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

Absolutely I agree with all that. But one group protesting their rights/grievances doesn't negate other grievances.

People supporting BLM could also object strongly to separating families at the Mexican border or the way native Americans are treated.

No one protest can cover all the injustice in the world. However that is a way that is used to diminish a protest, accuse it of hypocrisy because they don't tackle all injustice.


There is a bit of bandwagon jumping with protests in Dublin, they should not have happened, but what happens in America is newsworthy because America is a globally important country.

The main thing that grinds my gears is the blaming of white people or using white privilege to justify arguments , to me trying to get rid of racism and using statements like that you are just pissing in the wind those statements in of themselves are racist.

Ya America certainly leads the way for alot of things, and is definitely going to have a knock on affect the world over.

I don't think anyone can complain in Ireland infairness we have it pretty good in the grand scheme of things.

Quantum Erasure

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes, there were slaves in Ireland going back before records began -
...

I hope that answers your question. It is a complicated topic not given to soundbites or cut and dried answers.

fair play, thanks,

El_Duderino 09

Cupatae wrote: »

There's descrinination against every race, by every race.. it's just how it is, rather than attach blame to specific individuals, alot of the time BLM blames "the white man" all the while asking for equality.

Black people do not have a monopoly on descrimination , I dunno why ur asking me about boru I haven't a notion what the argument is there I didn't bring that up.

If your asking me is there still descrimination against Irish people ? I'd say ya there is in certain places. The no dogs no blacks no irish signs aren't long gone.

Do you think black people are discriminated against by everyone , everyday ? Because that's sure what it sounds like at this stage.

I'm asking about Boru becacus it's an example which is being discusses in the thread hit mainly because it's an example of historical slavery which doesn't have any impact on anyone today. That's a big distinction and it's why there's no movement to take down a statue of Boru, but there is a movement to take down statues of African slave traders.

I don't think black people are discriminated against by everyone , everyday and it isn't necessary to make the point. The point was that Irish people today don't experience discrimination stemming from being enslaved. Black people do. That's a pretty big distinction.

Edgware

Thankfully no more of that old dirge "Dublin in the rare old times" Obviously very racist song about black men taking our white women
" I lost her to a student chap with skin as black as coal"

mick087

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes, there were slaves in Ireland going back before records began - these would have mainly been those captured in raids etc. The Norse in Dublin had a slave market.

In terms of black slaves so far 80 people with addresses in Ireland have been identified as slave owners when owning slaves was made illegal in the British Empire.
Many would like to claim all of these people were 'British' but given that a direct descendent of Gráinne Ní Mháille was one of the 80 so far identified that is not true. It may be true that they were Anglo-Irish but if we are going to say that makes them not 'Irish' then neither were Wilde, Yeats, Pearse, Tone.

This article in History Ireland that shows there were 'Irish' Irish directly involved in the slave trade - as ships captains and traders.

https://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/the-irish-and-the-atlantic-slave-trade/

Given that the purpose of using African slaves was to harvest crops in climates white people found hard to tolerate - e.g. sugar cane in the West Indies, cotton/tobacco in the southern United States there was no economic impetus to have African slaves as labourers in Ireland - there were enough poverty stricken peasants to do the work. Ditto in the factories in England - e.g.slaves picked the cotton in the America, it was shipped to places like Manchester where appallingly paid workers (including children) manufactured cloth.

In short - slaves were used when no other form of cheap labour was available.

There were, however, people of African origin in Ireland usually as servants in the houses of the nobility - estimates are between 1k-3k. Whether or not slavery was technically legal within the United Kingdom was unclear and in 1772 a legal judgement (Somerset V Stewart) held that chattel slavery was unsupported by the Common Law.
This may, or may not, have encouraged the 13 British colonies in North America to seek to break ties with the empire.

In 1807 the trade in slaves was outlawed in the British Empire, however owning slaves wasn't outlawed until 1833.

I hope that answers your question. It is a complicated topic not given to soundbites or cut and dried answers.

Thats a really good post and something to read up on. Thanks.