Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

joe40

Nermal wrote: »

Would that the Roman people woke mob had but one neck head!

I get that people have different opinions about removing the statues, that's fine but this gloating over someone been seriously injured that is just scummy behavior.

Tony EH

joe40 wrote: »

I think they are, statues are put up to honour people.

That doesn't mean they still stand in honour of those people today.

lawrencesummers

hotmail.com wrote: »

From an Irish point of view, surely the focus should be on the existing influence of the Catholic Church on children and health etc given what we know what the Church did here.

If we're going to discuss legacy.

Irish people’s support of the Catholic Church is dwindling by the day. There is no appetite to enter the priesthood, less and less kids are getting confirmed, marriages are being done in other ways. Schools are moving away from the church. The attendance of the Pope recently tells a huge story. People under 50 generally couldn’t give a fiddlers about the Catholic Church.

If the current level of drop off maintains itself then the church in Ireland would die out in a generation or two.

Christy42

Tony EH wrote: »

Statues, or any other kind of memorials, aren't "celebrations" automatically. Nobody is putting up the bunting around it and telling people what a great man Eddy was.



There are monuments to dodgy pasts in many countries. Where do we stop? How far back do you go?

Who gets to say which monuments to bad things can stay and which can go?

I mean. It doesn't even mention the entire slavery thing. How is that a reminder of a bad past?

It was absolutely a monument to the man himself and it is revisionist to suggest otherwise.

I would however be in favour of sticking something up in its stead. Maybe a monument to the slaves who were shipped through the company? That would be a reminder of an inglorious past.

Surely a bit of a better reminder.

ILoveYourVibes

All the excuses against protests against police in the UK have been they are not armed they don't use plastic bullets

But of course in NI they used guns and real or rubber bullets all the time.

The UK CONSISTENTLY erases their policing in NI away.

YES the UK uses /used armed police.

Yes they have routinely used rubber or real bullets.

WE as Irish people need to support the BLM movement in the UK. We are protecting our fellow Irish people in the North by doing so.

ancapailldorcha

Tony EH wrote: »

Half the people there looking that this statue getting pulled down probably couldn't even name who it was.

Same as the people wailing about it here.

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that Edward Colston was probably no better or worse than many people of his class in the 17th and 18th Centuries.

So where do you stop?

That's because there's little emphasis on context. Colston was a trader. He owned a fleet of ships. He worked in an office. He didn't sail the high sea's, or roam the African interior searching for slaves. Hell, the company he worked for only had the rights to purchases slaves who were already enslaved, and had no power to enslave anyone.

But he's connected with and made money through slavery, so he's as bad as anyone else who participated in slavery. Actually, he's worse, because he became even more prosperous than before by doing so. (he was already wealthy before he entered the slave trade)

lawrencesummers

Tony EH wrote: »

See, this is the huge problem with the selective memory that some people have.

Churchill = WWII, so all is grand. Forget all the bad stuff he said and did and what the man represented to a great many people.

Colston, in addition to making money on the British slave trade, was also a great supporter of charitable organisations in Britain. He gave a lot of money to schools and hospitals, for example.

But, forget that, cos slavery.

The fact of the matter is that Edward Colston was probably no better or worse than many people of his class in the 17th and 18th Centuries.

So where do you stop?

That’s easy - with democratic decision making on what does and what doesn’t adorn public places.

Let the people decide.
Listen to them and let them decide.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Same as the people wailing about it here.

True enough. I never heard about him before I read this thread. Then I read up on him, saw the growing outrage here and read a lot more.

I couldn't really care less about Colston himself. My issue has been the abuse of history, and I really don't like mob actions.

Tony EH

Christy42 wrote: »

I mean. It doesn't even mention the entire slavery thing. How is that a reminder of a bad past?

It was absolutely a monument to the man himself and it is revisionist to suggest otherwise.

I would however be in favour of sticking something up in its stead. Maybe a monument to the slaves who were shipped through the company? That would be a reminder of an inglorious past.

Surely a bit of a better reminder.

Where do you stop?

Maybe they should rip down the statues of Charles II as well? Another man who benefited from the slave trade of the 17th and 18th centuries.

But what would be the point?

It won't help anyone today.

Tony EH

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Same as the people wailing about it here.

More than likely.

I'd say the Edward Colston wiki page has never had so many hits.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

True enough. I never heard about him before I read this thread. Then I read up on him, saw the growing outrage here and read a lot more.

I couldn't really care less about Colston himself. My issue has been the abuse of history, and I really don't like mob actions.

I don't care for mobs either but I can understand why this happened. Calling it an abuse of history is a bit much. It's a statue. If it was his autobiography and people were burning it en masse that'd be a different story.

Tony EH wrote: »

More than likely.

I'd say the Edward Colston wiki page has never had so many hits.

The irony.

robinph

Tony EH wrote: »

That's just this week.

Going forward, if we tear down all the monuments that remind us of some uncomfortable realities of our past, there may be a lot less understanding and knowledge about it.

This kind of thing is cheap and in the end it doesn't change anything substantial. It mainly just serves just to hide away things we don't want to be reminded of.

The statue of Colston is not going to be forgotten about. But leaving it on a street with a sign saying he was the cities most virtuous son did nothing to tell us about his story. He will now get a section dedicated to his actions in the museum on the other side of the harbour from where his statue landed.

As for any other statues, if they get moved to museums and their histories explained there then things will be preserved far better than by a bronze on a street with zero other commentary about why it's there. All that a statue of a slave trader in the middle of a city was reminding us of was that we value people who traded in other people more than the people they traded.

mick087

Fleetwoodmac wrote: »

There is apparently considerable infighting in response to who had the "opportunity" to drown the statue in Bristol. A friend who has been a long standing activist for BAME rights in the UK has been relaying to me the discontent that it was several white men pictured rolling the statue and throwing it in the water. At a grassroots level, this symbolised a replication of very oppression BLM etc are advocating against. so yes, while the removal of the statue was lauded within the groups, the fact that black people weren't seen to do the very act has only intensified the anger.

A movement thats good that should be listened to is always taken over by folk who know best and was not interested at the start.
Its a shame that the BAME is being overtaken by folk who have no real interest in the cause. Believe me there are because this is getting national attention.

Pulling down that statue wont speed the process up, people with a vote will dig there heels in.



This also answers my question to why no one has stepped forwars and said it was me who pulled it down.

Tony EH

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The irony.

What "irony". What are you talking about?

Tony EH

robinph wrote: »

The statue of Colston is not going to be forgotten about. But leaving it on a street with a sign saying he was the cities most virtuous son did nothing to tell us about his story. He will now get a section dedicated to his actions in the museum on the other side of the harbour from where his statue landed.

As for any other statues, if they get moved to museums and their histories explained there then things will be preserved far better than by a bronze on a street with zero other commentary about why it's there. All that a statue of a slave trader in the middle of a city was reminding us of was that we value people who traded in other people more than the people they traded.

What other statues? Which ones would you want to see torn down next? Which ones are bad enough to be eliminated?

ancapailldorcha

Tony EH wrote: »

What "irony". What are you talking about?

Everyone knows his name now. Just feels ironic to me.

Nermal

Christy42 wrote: »

I would however be in favour of sticking something up in its stead. Maybe a monument to the slaves who were shipped through the company? That would be a reminder of an inglorious past.

Every day we could have a mandatory two minutes of self-abasement before it, couldn't we?

Tony EH

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Everyone knows his name now. Just feels ironic to me.

Well that was bound to happen. They'll probably forget it again just as quick.

robinph

Tony EH wrote: »

What other statues? Which ones would you want to see torn down next? Which ones are bad enough to be eliminated?

Don't know, make the case for or against some?

Colston I've known about for years and have continually been surprised that he remained where he did whist watching other places nearby that also bear his name go through the process of denying any need to change their names every couple of years. The only one I can think of which did change in advance of this week being a primary school who I think realised trying to justify the name to a bunch of 5-11 years olds was getting increasingly daft.

The concert venue bearing his name has been under pressure to change their name for over 20+ years at least, and was making noises about doing so before this week but I'm not sure that anyone really believed them.

robinph

Tony EH wrote: »

Well that was bound to happen. They'll probably forget it again just as quick.

The rest of the world might, but he won't be forgotten about in Bristol, and Bristol was about the only place that had heard about him prior to this week.

I'd expect his name and the video of him being toppled to pop up again and again over the years as other statues get replaced and re-evaluated over time...just like they always have though.

Tony EH

robinph wrote: »

Don't know, make the case for or against some?

Personally, I wouldn't be in favour of ripping down any. Historical monuments are important and act as a reminder of days gone by...good and bad.

One could make a case for tearing down Trajan's monument in Rome, because it was erected to commemorate the elimination of Dacia and everyone in it.

But it would be an awful shame to do so.

robinph wrote: »

Colston I've known about for years and have continually been surprised that he remained where he did whist watching other places nearby that also bear his name go through the process of denying any need to change their names every couple of years. The only one I can think of which did change in advance of this week being a primary school who I think realised trying to justify the name to a bunch of 5-11 years olds was getting increasingly daft.

The concert venue bearing his name has been under pressure to change their name for over 20+ years at least, and was making noises about doing so before this week but I'm not sure that anyone really believed them.

I first learned about Edward Colston while I was reading about the history of British workhouses. There are also numerous other items dotted around Britain that bear his name, including a church.

Maybe that needs to be ripped down as well?

Where do you stop?

ancapailldorcha

Something feels different this time. I think it's that the lockdown has insreased the stress on people but I don't see the debate on slavery and colonialism dissipating any time soon.

ancapailldorcha

Anyways:

A statue of a slave trader that was thrown into a harbour by anti-racism protestors has been retrieved from the water.

Black Lives Matter demonstrators tore down the statue of Edward Colston during a protest in Bristol on Sunday.

Bristol City Council said it needed to be removed from the water because the city had a "working harbour".

The statue will be taken to a secure location to be hosed down before becoming a museum exhibit.

It was fished out at about 05:00 BST because the council "didn't want anybody to get hurt if there was a crowd there or anyone looking".

"We've had a diver down there who attached the ropes to crane it out of the water and take it away," Ray Barnett, head of collections and archives at Bristol City Council, said.

"The ropes that were tied around him, the spray paint added to him, is still there so we'll keep him like that."

Mr Barnett said the statue would be hosed down to remove the mud and ensure "we preserve him as he was tipped into the dock, while the decision is made how to move on for there".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-53004748

Nermal

Tony EH wrote: »

Where do you stop?

This question is never answered.

The only remotely reasonable answer the defenders of the mob have given is 'the people should decide democratically', which when you parse it is of course just a way to avoid giving an opinion.

Of course in reality democratic options were being pursued, they just weren't leading to the outcome the mob wanted.

joe40

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Something feels different this time. I think it's that the lockdown has insreased the stress on people but I don't see the debate on slavery and colonialism dissipating any time soon.

It would be good for Britain to fully acknowledge it colonial past, both good and bad. There is the general narrative that they were largely the good guys with benign rule.

I wonder how may British people know about this massacre in India. Recent history.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre

Even the abuse James McClean got for not wearing a poppy, although British soldiers committed an atrocity in his home town.

I'm not saying modern Brits should be ashamed of bear any blame, just own their history warts and all.

robinph

Nermal wrote: »

This question is never answered.

It doesn't ever stop, and why should "it".

The world is constantly evolving and changing it's attitudes to what came before. Always has done and always will do and it keeps historians in a job writing books about the interesting bits.

ancapailldorcha

joe40 wrote: »

It would be good for Britain to fully acknowledge it colonial past, both good and bad. There is the general narrative that they were largely the good guys with benign rule.

I wonder how may British people know about this massacre in India. Recent history.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre

Even the abuse James McClean got for not wearing a poppy, although British soldiers committed an atrocity in his home town.

I'm not saying modern Brits should be ashamed of bear any blame, just own their history warts and all.

Absolutely. The Germans have done this ages ago but the Brits just paper mached over it flag waving, jingoism and "Keep calm and carry on". Their sense of their own history seems to be abysmally lacking.

Tony EH

robinph wrote: »

It doesn't ever stop, and why should "it".

So we can expect a few George Washington statues to be torn down soon? Or how about any British monarch up to the 19th Century?

Lux23

Tony EH wrote: »

So we can expect a few George Washington statues to be torn down soon? Or how about any British monarch up to the 19th Century?

Up to the 19th century? I think the 20th century ones were ****s too. I wonder if there a statue of Prince Andrew anywhere?