Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

Tony EH

joe40 wrote: »

It would be good for Britain to fully acknowledge it colonial past, both good and bad. There is the general narrative that they were largely the good guys with benign rule.

I wonder how may British people know about this massacre in India. Recent history.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre

Even the abuse James McClean got for not wearing a poppy, although British soldiers committed an atrocity in his home town.

I'm not saying modern Brits should be ashamed of bear any blame, just own their history warts and all.

It's hard to remind a people of their iniquitous pasts when those reminders get destroyed and/or hidden away though.

Ancappaldorcha mentioned irony. I think the biggest irony is that the people who want to remind everyone of the British involvement in the slave trade were the ones tearing down an actual reminder of it.

Tony EH

Lux23 wrote: »

Up to the 19th century? I think the 20th century ones were ****s too. I wonder if there a statue of Prince Andrew anywhere?

Perhaps. But I was speaking in terms of Britain's involvement in the international slave trade.

Nermal

robinph wrote: »

It doesn't ever stop, and why should "it".

The world is constantly evolving and changing it's attitudes to what came before. Always has done and always will do and it keeps historians in a job writing books about the interesting bits.

Tell us about YOUR attitude, robinph.

Tell us about YOUR heuristic that allows you to support the toppling of this statue, but not every single other one in this list and many other besides.

Tell us exactly how old you have to be before modern morality cannot be applied to you, exactly how important your deeds must be before your 'sins' are forgiven.

ancapailldorcha

Tony EH wrote: »

It's hard to remind a people of their iniquitous pasts when those reminders get destroyed and/or hidden away though.

Ancappaldorcha mentioned irony. I think the biggest irony is that the people who want to remind everyone of the British involvement in the slave trade were the ones tearing down an actual reminder of it.

I don't think the statue was reminding anyone of anything in any significant way. Had the council not obfuscated so much, a compromise could have been found. Instead a mob felt the need to remove it.

Hopefully, this country starts to take a long, serious look at itself.

ohnonotgmail

Tony EH wrote: »

It's hard to remind a people of their iniquitous pasts when those reminders get destroyed and/or hidden away though.

Ancappaldorcha mentioned irony. I think the biggest irony is that the people who want to remind everyone of the British involvement in the slave trade were the ones tearing down an actual reminder of it.

in what way was it a reminder of the slave trade? it made no mention of his involvement in the slave trade.

joe40

Tony EH wrote: »

It's hard to remind a people of their iniquitous pasts when those reminders get destroyed and/or hidden away though.

Ancappaldorcha mentioned irony. I think the biggest irony is that the people who want to remind everyone of the British involvement in the slave trade were the ones tearing down an actual reminder of it.

So do we need to get a few Hitler statues erected in Berlin in case they forget about WW2.

Tony EH

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't think the statue was reminding anyone of anything in any significant way.

Well, we don't really know this do we. However, anyone walking by the statue and wondering who it was, was able to pursue information further and discover what Colston did, including his involvement in the slave trade.

So, one could argue that having the statue there leads to further learning as opposed to not having it there.

Of course, one would have to be disposed to the further learning in the first place.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Hopefully, this country starts to take a long, serious look at itself.

If by "this country" you mean Britain, I would doubt that is going to happen. Britain is becoming more and more of a flag wavy isolationist entity as the years go by. The "little Englander" cohort is increasing, not decreasing.

ancapailldorcha

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, we don't really know this do we. However, anyone walking by the statue and wondering who it was, was able to pursue information further and discover what Colston did, including his involvement in the slave trade.

So, one could argue that having the statue there leads to further learning as opposed to not having it there.

I don't see how. They could and can do so anyway.

Tony EH wrote: »

Of course, one would have to be disposed to the further learning in the first place.

True.

Tony EH wrote: »

If by "this country" you mean Britain, I would doubt that is going to happen. Britain is becoming more and more of a flag wavy isolationist entity as the years go by. The "little Englander" cohort is increasing, not decreasing.

We'll see. I think there is reason to hope but it's far from certain that they will.

Tony EH

joe40 wrote: »

So do we need to get a few Hitler statues erected in Berlin in case they forget about WW2.

There are plenty of reminders of Hitler and WW2 floating about.

The Germans will never be allowed to get over the second world war.

And this is part of the problem with other countries ripping down and hiding their own nefarious pasts. It allows them to remain ignorant of their own countries misgivings, while giving them fuel to point the finger at other nations for their misdeeds.

Every country has skeletons in their closets.

Tony EH

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

in what way was it a reminder of the slave trade? it made no mention of his involvement in the slave trade.

It existed.

ohnonotgmail

Tony EH wrote: »

It existed.

it didnt mention that he made his money from slaves so in what possible way did it remind people walking by of the slave trade? be specific.

paw patrol

Tony EH wrote: »

So we can expect a few George Washington statues to be torn down soon? Or how about any British monarch up to the 19th Century?

These fools (and some here) are just idiots , judging the past on the morals and standards of today. The first lesson I learned in history was not to judge.

why not ban Islam? your man owned slaves...traded in them too. why not burn a mosque down for the feel good factor?

Why do the blacks get off scot free? should african countries not pay reparation for selling slaves to the West? Never been to West Africa , do they have statues? Maybe the pyramids?
The saudis too only banned slavery in 1962 - maybe topple a few statues or mosques there....or demand the UK - EU - US cease trading with them? No?

it's only the white man's history needs examining, shaming and re-writing. odd that. That is where is stops (to answer another poster) at the end of the mobs internal self loathing.

It's odd too , that this mob are tackling historical stuff instead of the stuff happening now. Actual slavery in north africa...nah....

Kylta

Whether you removed the statutes (controversial or not ) relating to the past or not its basically irrelevant. Its the future where all these problems get addressed. In regards to getting rid of controversial statues (say coulsen) are you washing him out history as a slave trader (out of mind out of sight) kind of thing. Saying that if I was a black person I wouldn't want to be reminded daily of somebody who gained on the misery of my race. Maybe controversial statues should end up in museums, where upon its up to the person whether they want to go out of there way to see these statutes.
Actually when we got our independence did we remove any british statues?

Tony EH

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it didnt mention that he made his money from slaves so in what possible way did it remind people walking by of the slave trade? be specific.

Cromwell's statue doesn't mention his less than honourable actions. Nor does the Churchill one. The statues and monuments to Washington don't mention the fact that he was a slave owner either.

But the very fact that they exist means that people see them and can be prompted to go off an learn more. Something that probably wouldn't happen if they aren't around, especially in the case of lesser known historical figures.

robinph

Nermal wrote: »

Tell us about YOUR attitude, robinph.

Tell us about YOUR heuristic that allows you to support the toppling of this statue, but not every single other one in this list and many other besides.

Tell us exactly how old you have to be before modern morality cannot be applied to you, exactly how important your deeds must be before your 'sins' are forgiven.

I don't know about any of them. Make the case for and against some statue or monument and let us know. If you can justify why some statue should remain, or why another should go then get campaigning for it. Bugger all to do with me.

Colston I'm glad to see removed, and I'll be glad to see reappear in the local museum, and I'll be glad when in a few years the kid does a school project on it. Didn't massively negatively affect me personally with it being there, although it was nothing to be proud about. It does benefit me with it being gone and then becoming a museum exhibit though.

Tony EH

Kylta wrote: »

Whether you removed the statutes (controversial or not ) relating to the past or not its basically irrelevant. Its the future where all these problems get addressed. In regards to getting rid of controversial statues (say coulsen) are you washing him out history as a slave trader (out of mind out of sight) kind of thing. Saying that if I was a black person I wouldn't want to be reminded daily of somebody who gained on the misery of my race. Maybe controversial statues should end up in museums, where upon its up to the person whether they want to go out of there way to see these statutes.

The flip side to that is that maybe, "as a black person" I might find it important that people remember that there was a thriving slave trade in the first place that caused much misery.

Kylta wrote: »

Actually when we got our independence did we remove any british statues?

The IRA "removed" one.

There are numerous reminders of British figures dotted around Ireland. That big thing in the Phoenix park for example.

ohnonotgmail

Tony EH wrote: »

Cromwell's statue doesn't mention his less than honourable actions. Nor does the Churchill one. The statues and monuments to Washington don't mention the fact that he was a slave owner either.

But the very fact that they exist means that people see them and can be prompted to go off an learn more. Something that probably wouldn't happen if they aren't around, especially in the case of lesser known historical figures.

colston was no cromwell or churchill. the locals had campaigned for years for mention of the slave trade to be added to the statue and it never happened. he is being put in a museum where he belongs.

Mules

Well seeing as Leo has announced that it's time to look at our statues, it's going to kick off here now too. I think this will distract from the original protest. In the UK the public/ media conversation is now about statues rather than racism in society. It's a shame because imo it will alienate many people who originally supported the protests.

Tony EH

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

colston was no cromwell or churchill. the locals had campaigned for years for mention of the slave trade to be added to the statue and it never happened. he is being put in a museum where he belongs.

What other statues need to be torn down and "put in museums" because the person might have an uncomfortable past?

Where do you stop?

ohnonotgmail

Tony EH wrote: »

What other statues need to be "put in museums" because the person might have an uncomfortable past?

Where do you stop?

you say the statue served the purpose of education. that is what museums are for.

Tony EH

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you say the statue served the purpose of education. that is what museums are for.

A lot of people don't go to museums. Especially those in their own country.

mick087

What will happen in the north with the murals, who is right who is wrong?
Will the deaths of so many not be challenged by surviving familes today that they glorify death?

Every single statue seems to have someone who has dirt on them.

Time to build much bigger museums i think.

fly_agaric

Tony EH wrote: »

Britain is becoming more and more of a flag wavy isolationist entity as the years go by. The "little Englander" cohort is increasing, not decreasing.

Their numbers are decreasing overall but they still have the population % to completely determine the democratic outcomes (unlike the US, where the old "white" WASP population will be minority - majority soon if I remember correctly).

I predict these sorts of movements are probably going to make them retreat into the bunker even more (similar to "loyalists" up north) and get increasingly angry as the old cultural stuff is altered around them to suit the new mores.

It (or they + their insecurity/anger) fed into Brexit so expect it's going to get worse and add to factors that seem to be making it quite likely to me (looking from outside I admit...) the UK will tear itself apart in the coming years.

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

A lot of people don't go to museums. Especially those in their own country.

And your point? The prominent position it had, didn't actually highlight who the individual was. If I was a tourist and read the description, I would conclude that he was a kind hearted man who did lots of good. The statue whitewashed who he was and was a celebration of him.

ohnonotgmail

Tony EH wrote: »

A lot of people don't go to museums. Especially those in their own country.

even less people google the name of every statue they pass

Tony EH

Deleted User wrote: »

And your point?

The point is obvious.

These type of monuments act as a reminder because they exist in full view of everybody.

Pulling them down and hiding them away in some museum, probably a small one, would mean that the only people seeing them would be folk that are inclined to go to a museum in the first place, which would be a relatively number of the population.

Thus the history of the subject gets more eroded as time goes on.

Those who forget the past...yadda, yadda, yadda...

ohnonotgmail

Tony EH wrote: »

The point is obvious.

These type of monuments act as a reminder because they exist in full view of everybody.

Pulling them down and hiding them away in some museum, probably a small one, would mean that the only people seeing them would be folk that are inclined to go to a museum in the first place, which would be a relatively number of the population.

Thus the history of the subject gets more eroded as time goes on.

Those who forget the past...yadda, yadda, yadda...

what is educational about a statue that doesnt mention the most salient points about the person depicted?

Tony EH

Deleted User wrote: »

And your point? The prominent position it had, didn't actually highlight who the individual was. If I was a tourist and read the description, I would conclude that he was a kind hearted man who did lots of good. The statue whitewashed who he was and was a celebration of him.

He funded a lot of schools and hospitals. Plus he was responsible for a lot of bedehouses, which were used to house the poor and destitute throughout Britain.

It's arguable that he did, in fact, do a lot of good.

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

The point is obvious.

These type of monuments act as a reminder because they exist in full view of everybody.

Pulling them down and hiding them away in some museum, probably a small one, would mean that the only people seeing them would be folk that are inclined to go to a museum in the first place, which would be a relatively number of the population.

Thus the history of the subject gets more eroded as time goes on.

Those who forget the past...yadda, yadda, yadda...

Why did you omit the rest of my response? Liverpool has a museum dedicated to its role in slavery. That's shining a light on your nation's past.

Tony EH

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what is educational about a statue that doesnt mention the most salient points about the person depicted?

There would have been people who would see the statue and want to know more about the person. It could act a as a trigger of sort to research more.

I would have thought that obvious.