Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

Danzy

joe40 wrote: »

That won't happen. The Colston statue has been controversial for some time, as are the confederate statues which were often a blatant "fcuk you" to the black community.

They'll try, they'll keep going, so much to burn.

nullzero

Bannasidhe wrote: »

800 years of oppression rabble rabble rabble.

No - that oppression of other people had nothing to do with us the chains were just resting in our hands.

So you are suggesting that all Irish people were and are responsible for the actions of people living on this island who were involved with slavery?

mick087

Calhoun wrote: »

Suppose we could burn it all down or should have burned it down after we got the English out.

After all we were young free, single and had lots of money.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/council-asked-to-take-down-statue-of-ira-chief-over-links-to-nazis-39277402.html

In local news this one is going to be great to watch.

The problem with this staue is that the fact we now live in a multicultural society we are going to get people who object.

A few years ago a Polish guy i worked with said he read up on this guy and was disgusted we could have a statue of someone who may of had sympathizes with the natzis.

I tried to explain who this guy was, and some of the Irish Uk history. i was informed who what the Natzis was and how they killed millions in Poland, the death camp stories i was told was dreadful.

I think it should stay so more people can google read up find out who he was. If we take him down he will be forgotten. But i will respect what the locals and elected officials decide.

I Am Nobody

Will the Canadians go after the monuments of Marie-Marguerite d'Youville.Once described as Montreal's more prominent slaveholders.She was even canonized by Pope John Paul II.

Even in the US,the media or the protesters aren't mentioning any of the Freed slaves who became slaver owners themselves.Or even the Native Americans being slave owners/traders.

If they are going to burn/loot/ban/destroy in the name of racial injustice,might as well go all in with a equal view.Instead of cherry picking to suit their ideals. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

shaveAbullock

Why can't we just put something like this before every TV show and on every statue?

Bannasidhe

nullzero wrote: »

Can we find a country that hasn't been in some way impacted by historical slave trading and or other immoral acts?

Human history is full of immorality, humans being absolute b@stards to each other.
I don't believe that people didn't realise this to be true until last weekend.

You invoke hyperbolic notions such as pulling buildings down and the use of terms like snowflake etc whilst you also claim to deal only in historical fact. Clearly you have an agenda that supports one ideal over another, and that's not a problem at all, at least just take ownership of it and stop pretending to be on the fence when everyone else can see you're not.

I have been very clear about my agenda.

Stop idolising people who really don't deserve it but if you have to put them on a pedestal at least be honest about them.

Stop cherry picking bits of history to suit personal agendas, it is far more nuanced than that.

Do some research - or at least listen to the people who have done some research - before making grand pronouncements.

I have also (apart from a snippy comment) not engaged in having a go at any poster personally - it's a shame that courtesy hasn't been extended to me.

Danzy

Bannasidhe.

You have to expect to be called out.

It's not the first time you've expressed view that are more in line with those you claim to oppose.

You are not above it all.

El_Duderino 09

joe40 wrote: »

No let's stop all this "what next" nonsense. Inventing stuff to get outraged about...

I can't tell if these people think it's actually clever or if they're just trying to trivialise of the reasons BLM are doing the things they're doing right now.

What's the story if these people don't see a difference between an actual slave trader, and the unbroken era of systemic racism against black people on one hand, and some guff about Molly Malone on the other hand?

joe40

joe40 wrote: »

This is not directed at you but the majority of posts opposing the removal of Colston statue involve a "nonsense hypothetical" example will we have to "take down the pyramids" or "rename Columbia"

The difference is between past tense hypotheticals like comparing BLM to the suffragettes and future hypothetical like where this goes next.

The question a lot of people have is what sort of precedents are being set by destroying old monuments.

robinph

shaveAbullock wrote: »

Why can't we just put something like this before every TV show and on every statue?

That was essentially a suggestion for the Colston statue, but the revised version of the wording submitted to the mayor for being put on the statue after several versions was more like "Colston was a great lad, he did awesome things, look at that big tower to your left don't mention the slaves" so the Mayor told them it wasn't a suitable explanation and to go away and try again.

joe40

joe40 wrote: »

No let's stop all this "what next" nonsense. Inventing stuff to get outraged about...

So we shouldn't try to anticipate the repercussions of destroying monuments? Asking what precedent is being set?

We should just let the mobs have their way and not ask any questions?

Tony EH

mick087 wrote: »

The problem with this staue is that the fact we now live in a multicultural society we are going to get people who object.

A few years ago a Polish guy i worked with said he read up on this guy and was disgusted we could have a statue of someone who may of had sympathizes with the natzis.

I tried to explain who this guy was, and some of the Irish Uk history. i was informed who what the Natzis was and how they killed millions in Poland, the death camp stories i was told was dreadful.

I think it should stay so more people can google read up find out who he was. If we take him down he will be forgotten. But i will respect what the locals and elected officials decide.

Russell went to Germany to secure arms for the IRA in Ireland, in order to continue its fight against the British. I doubt that Russell had any truck with the nazis to any major degree, but was willing to deal with them if it meant getting arms sent over to continue the struggle, as it were.

"The enemy of my enemy..." was about the limit of Sean Russell's "sympathies" with the ruling power in Germany at the time. The only real common denominator would have been Britain. Ironic considering that Adolf was, in fact, an Anglophile and had a great admiration for Britain and her Empire.

Another ironic thing is that the majority of the IRA, which were actually pretty few in number, would have been the complete political opposite of the nazis. They would have been rather left leaning types. The very type Hitler had been putting in Dachau since the 30's.

Danzy

Danzy wrote: »

These protests have nothing to do with context, context is irrelevant.

There are sone already calling for Roger Casements monument to be torn down due to his time in Africa

Any excuse to burn it all to the ground and start their utopia, and when that doesn't happen they'll turn on the people, on each other, same story again.

Can you provide a source for your claim about calls to take down his statue? Eg this is the most popular tweet in last few days that references Casement and if anything it highlights that plenty of people viewed the policies of the period as atrocities.

https://twitter.com/GabrielScally/status/1270358346223190018?s=19

joe40

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So we shouldn't try to anticipate the repercussions of destroying monuments? Asking what precedent is being set?

We should just let the mobs have their way and not ask any questions?

There is a world of difference between serious discussion on this topic which is important since the topic is nuanced and "what about the pyramids" or "they're taking down Molly Malone"
I believe it was you that used the phrase "nonsense hypothetical" (great phrase by the way hope you don't mind if I steal it)
I just find it frustrating when over used.

I think the Davy Russel statue should stay I understand the
Controversy but on balance it should stay. Each one should be discussed on its own merits.

Every country and every people have actions that are shameful.
As a country I think we are trying to come to terms with abuse scandals. That is to our credit, we're not hiding from them.

JimmyVik

nullzero wrote: »

Can we find a country that hasn't been in some way impacted by historical slave trading and or other immoral acts?

Human history is full of immorality, humans being absolute b@stards to each other.
I don't believe that people didn't realise this to be true until last weekend.

You invoke hyperbolic notions such as pulling buildings down and the use of terms like snowflake etc whilst you also claim to deal only in historical fact. Clearly you have an agenda that supports one ideal over another, and that's not a problem at all, at least just take ownership of it and stop pretending to be on the fence when everyone else can see you're not.

Buying a shirt in Pennys today will one day get you cancelled.
If you buy one, dont tweet it.

mick087

Tony EH wrote: »

Russell went to Germany to secure arms for the IRA in Ireland, in order to continue its fight against the British. I doubt that Russell had any truck with the nazis to any major degree, but was willing to deal with them if it meant getting arms sent over to continue the struggle, as it were.

"The enemy of my enemy..." was about the limit of Sean Russell's "sympathies" with the ruling power in Germany at the time. The only real common denominator would have been Britain. Ironic considering that Adolf was, in fact, an Anglophile and had a great admiration for Britain and her Empire.

Another ironic thing is that the majority of the IRA, which were actually pretty few in number, would have been the complete political opposite of the nazis. They would have been rather left leaning types. The very type Hitler had been putting in Dachau since the 30's.

I agree but i wasnt me who had the issue. This was a guy from Poland who does not understand the history. I more or less explained what you just said, he looked directly at me made a mmm sound noded and said ye ok.

I carnt see the loacls wanting that statue taken away, but when his kids grow up what will that statue mean to them?

markodaly

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Nobody (except you) is saying those things.

You can read the book on it if you want.

https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Is+Science+Racist%3F-p-9780745689227

Bannasidhe

nullzero wrote: »

So you are suggesting that all Irish people were and are responsible for the actions of people living on this island who were involved with slavery?

In no way, shape, or form did I say anything of the sort.
The people responsible were the people who were involved.

I also said I, personally, feel no guilt, even though I have a pretty good knowledge of the horrors of the slave trade. I acknowledge what was done were the most appalling crimes against humanity and Ireland was one of the countries that benefited. That in no way means that anyone alive now in Ireland is responsible for past actions, it simply means we, as a mature modern society, should admit they happened.

I said - and this is what the records show and I provided links - that there were people living in Ireland who owned slaves, that there were Irish people directly involved in the slave trade, that money from the slave trade was used in Ireland to fund capital works. I have provided evidence for each one of these.

I suggested that it might be an idea to have it noted on a plaque in Dublin that much of it's famous urban landscape was funded from the proceeds of the Triangular Slave Trade.

How you can possibly think that translates into "all Irish people were and are responsible" is completely beyond me.

Tony EH

mick087 wrote: »

I agree but i wasnt me who had the issue. This was a guy from Poland who does not understand the history. I more or less explained what you just said, he looked directly at me made a mmm sound noded and said ye ok.

I carnt see the loacls wanting that statue taken away, but when his kids grow up what will that statue mean to them?

Well, that just illustrates the main problem with some people of today angrily railing against figures of yesteryear. Context is thrown out the window and, often, appalling double standards are ushered in in its place.

JimmyVik

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, that just illustrates the main problem with some people of today angrily railing against figures of yesteryear. Context is thrown out the window and, often, appalling double standards are ushered in in its place.

Probably all smoking hash or doing some lines too and thinking thats ok.
Fair few slaves involved in getting their drugs to them I imagine.

markodaly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Seems Dublin benefitted from the 'generosity' of those who made a lot of money from human misery and the proceeds thereof - including tax revenue.

You could go around the world and look at loads of buildings, cities and monuments that were built in questionable circumstances by the modern standards

Washington DC was built by slaves.
The Egyptian pyramids were built by slaves.
The Forbidden City in Beijing had a million 'labours' working on it.
The Great Wall of China has the bodies of up to 400,000 'labourers' buried within it.
Tenochtitlan in modern Mexico built by the Aztez empire, with the help of slaves.
The famous Saint Basil's Cathedral in Moscow was built by Ivan II, also known as Ivan the Terrible. I guess he got that name because he so woke!
Modern Paris is an homage to the old French Empire especially Napolean. The Arch De Triumph was commissioned after Napeolean's victory in Austerlitz which cemented French dominance over continental Europe.
Rome, christ... where did all that money come from to build those buildings and monuments?
Greece? Well, I guess we should be sent to a re-education camp and bend the knee in solidarity before we can even have a peep at the Acropolis of Athens.

Oh, and we are going to have a World Cup in Qatar in stadiums built by modern slaves from India and Bangladesh, but I guess no one will care much about that when push comes to shove. Id respect many of these woke idiots much more if they actually wanted to tackle actual slavery in places like Africa or slavery by proxy in the middle east. But that might actually require a little more effort and a little more sacrifice now wouldn't it!

No doubt there will be those who will be quick to point out the La Touche family were not 'Irish' - perhaps not, but they lived here and were powerful (not British/aristocratic) and influential.

This is an odd statement. We, in Ireland, were colonised ourselves. If a foreign power or family builds stuff without our consent, how are we responsible again for this? Or is your perpetual point just, 'more education, more education, ,more education, ' because its coming across like some sort of quasi-religious movement to enlighten us all to the 'real' truth, the truth you see it of course! Like like a priest of a missionary!!

mick087

Apparently BLM protest in London called off because far right groups and English nationalist are organising a counter protest.

There are a lot of people in the UK feeling they dont belong from white Black Asian in fact from all colours and races. I might be wrong but i dont see anyone trying to join unite them all.

markodaly

mick087 wrote: »

Apparently BLM protest in London called off because far right groups and English nationalist are organising a counter protest.

There are a lot of people in the UK feeling they dont belong from white Black Asian in fact from all colours and races. I might be wrong but i dont see anyone trying to join unite them all.

Well, the only certainly from this is a flight from the centre to the extremes.

We saw it during Brexit over the future of Britain in Europe.
Now we are going to see it over cultural and identity issues.
The last week or two will leave the likes of the BNP or their ilk licking their lips with delight, because there is **** all leadership in the centre-ground these days.

4068ac1elhodqr

mick087 wrote: »

Apparently BLM protest in London called off because far right groups and English nationalist are organising a counter protest.

The media has already classed these counter groups (including the scouts) as 'hate' groups.

Reckon there is hate from both sides, perhaps more from the one that forced the comedy gold that is Fawlty Towers to shame itself into submission.

Regardless a bit fistycuffs session could be on the cards, with so many yoof now looking to get their kicks, and fresh air after an very abnormal lockdown period.

shaveAbullock

mick087 wrote: »

Apparently BLM protest in London called off because far right groups and English nationalist are organising a counter protest.

Is this a reaction to police saying they would not enforce the law when it come to vandalism of statues?

Megan Most Octagon

Megan Most Octagon wrote: »

The media has already classed these counter groups (including the scouts) as 'hate' groups.

Reckon there is hate from both sides, perhaps more from the one that forced the comedy gold that is Fawlty Towers to shame itself into submission.

Regardless a bit fistycuffs session could be on the cards, with so many yoof now looking to get their kicks, and fresh air after an very abnormal lockdown period.

There wasn't any call to remove the Fawlty Towers episode plus on top of that most channels have actively omitted the dodgy part for years.

Also the scouts have not been classified as a hate group by anyone . More concerning is that groups such as Britain First will go off and kill somebody again.

mick087

markodaly wrote: »

Well, the only certainly from this is a flight from the centre to the extremes.

We saw it during Brexit over the future of Britain in Europe.
Now we are going to see it over cultural and identity issues.
The last week or two will leave the likes of the BNP or their ilk licking their lips with delight, because there is **** all leadership in the centre-ground these days.

I agree Groups like the BNP are licking there lips.

The left in its prescent format in the UK is no longer appealing to the working class. The centre ground is sinking like quick sand.

I just hope this dont build into clashes people fighting hurting each other wont help anyone.

mick087

shaveAbullock wrote: »

Is this a reaction to police saying they would not enforce the law when it come to vandalism of statues?

Maybe i dont know. But it seems many landmarks are being covered up so they dont get destroyed.

Bannasidhe

markodaly wrote: »

You could go around the world and look at loads of buildings, cities and monuments that were built in questionable circumstances by the modern standards

Washington DC was built by slaves.
The Egyptian pyramids were built by slaves.
The Forbidden City in Beijing had a million 'labours' working on it.
The Great Wall of China has the bodies of up to 400,000 'labourers' buried within it.
Tenochtitlan in modern Mexico built by the Aztez empire, with the help of slaves.
The famous Saint Basil's Cathedral in Moscow was built by Ivan II, also known as Ivan the Terrible. I guess he got that name because he so woke!
Modern Paris is an homage to the old French Empire especially Napolean. The Arch De Triumph was commissioned after Napeolean's victory in Austerlitz which cemented French dominance over continental Europe.
Rome, christ... where did all that money come from to build those buildings and monuments?
Greece? Well, I guess we should be sent to a re-education camp and bend the knee in solidarity before we can even have a peep at the Acropolis of Athens.

Oh, and we are going to have a World Cup in Qatar in stadiums built by modern slaves from India and Bangladesh, but I guess no one will care much about that when push comes to shove. Id respect many of these woke idiots much more if they actually wanted to tackle actual slavery in places like Africa or slavery by proxy in the middle east. But that might actually require a little more effort and a little more sacrifice now wouldn't it!




This is an odd statement. We, in Ireland, were colonised ourselves. If a foreign power or family builds stuff without our consent, how are we responsible again for this? Or is your perpetual point just, 'more education, more education, ,more education, ' because its coming across like some sort of quasi-religious movement to enlighten us all to the 'real' truth, the truth you see it of course! Like like a priest of a missionary!!

Firstly, It is up to each individual country how it wishes to deal with it's own past. Ireland included. We like to think of ourselves as the oppressed but gloss over the involvement of Irish people in oppressing others.

Irish history, just like every other history, is nuanced. It isn't as cut and dried as 'we were colonised'. Yes we were. And Irish people aided that colonisation, profited from that colonisation, participated in the colonisation of other places.
The descendents of colonists fought against British rule, founded Irish republicanism, and are nationalist heros today.

As an example - as the Tudor war machine rolled across the island of Ireland violently obliterating Gaelic culture helping them do so was the O'Brien earl of Thomond and the O'Neill Earl of Tyrone. Completely opposed to them were the Burkes of Mayo - descendants of Anglo-Normans, they fought for 30 years against Elizabeth's forces. When O'Neill switched sides his ally O'Donnell attacked the Burkes - who in turn switched sides as they didn't trust O'Donnell.
Every Fitzgerald, Burke/Bourke, Darcy, Walsh, etc in this country is a descendent of colonisers. An awful lot of people with those names fought against British rule.
As I said, it's nuanced.

Don't you think we are mature enough to deal with that?

Would you prefer it was all reduced to some ladybird book of acceptable Irish history that doesn't make anyone pause for thought and never ever contradicts 'what every knows' even when that isn't correct?
Who decides which bits are acceptable?

Someone whose job is education would like to see people educated. Gosh. That's hardly a shocker is it Mark?

Interesting that you think someone advocating people should educate themselves by looking at historical sources, reading the work of professional historians, and generally trying as best they can to familiarise themselves with how events unfolded and the people involved is akin to a missionary trying to get people to believe things on faith alone.
Seems to me they are the complete opposite. But then I am biased in that regard and not ashamed to say so.

The rest of your comment is just a dig as the 'real' truth as you categorise it was my sharing the work of other historians and journalists. But sure - call it all a cult if you wish. There's thousands of us you know. Spreading our message via credible sources.

4068ac1elhodqr

Deleted User wrote: »

There wasn't any call to remove the Fawlty Towers episode plus on top of that most channels have actively omitted the dodgy part for years.

So there hasn't been a revolution across the global, just in the last week or so, with various retractions across many various genres of media, and now boarding up of statues that have stood for centuries.

Deleted User wrote: »

Also the scouts have not been classified as a hate group by anyone . More concerning is that groups such as Britain First will go off and kill somebody again.

The media has ballparked them all as hate groups in they engage in any counter protest. Thus if the scouts, or historical preservation societies show up in any type of groupage (likely will), they easily tick the media's haters classification box.

Of course there are indeed some very vile groups in the mix also, and the newly formed (but laughable) titled DFLA does indicate a crowd of unorganised boozed up common holligans looking for a day out.