Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

Tony EH

Deleted User wrote: »

We're not talking about somebody who possessed slaves, we're discussing a person who actively made his wealth from slavery.

So it's ok to own people and profit off of their labour. Just not to sell them.

I hope you realise how silly that sounds.

Tony EH

2u2me wrote: »

What about Lincoln, he had slaves and probably did more than anyone else to end slavery. Should he have a statue?

Lincoln didn't own slaves.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

Gonna need a source on that, his family lived in Indiana for his formative years where slavery was prohibited. His family held anti-slavery views. He worked primarily in law. He also did not own slaves as you've previously claimed. So no, he did not make his wealth from slavery.

You're right here I was mistaken.

How about Washington, Jefferson, Madison, should any commemorations of them be removed?

Zebra3

2u2me wrote: »

You're right here I was mistaken.

How about Washington, Jefferson, Madison, should any commemorations of them be removed?

Of course.

And not just for their bitter racism against Africans but for their respective parts in their race wars against the natives.

robinph

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

Ah, yes. More mockery of the white working class.

The people who made this must be very brave to side with capitalism, mega-corporations, mass media, international finance and practically every government on earth.

It is similar in style to another "statue" that appeared chained to a bicycle rack in Bristol last year, and nobody claimed having created so currently thought to be Banksy. Don't think anyone would accuse him of siding with mega corporations for safety.

Maybe the white racists deserve a bit of mockery.

Yellow_Fern

So it turns out the reports far right protests with nazis salutes protecting the statues was fake. I looked through the footage and I couldn't see any. I could see football waving which looks vaguely like it but it is not a nazis salute. Nor could I see any nazisi tatoos, only Chinese tattoos and the only flag I could see appeared to be a Polish flag.

Yellow_Fern

robinph wrote: »

It is similar in style to another "statue" that appeared chained to a bicycle rack in Bristol last year, and nobody claimed having created so currently thought to be Banksy. Don't think anyone would accuse him of siding with mega corporations for safety.

Maybe the white racists deserve a bit of mockery.

Maybe but why does it more like 2020 working class man and not a 17th slave trader? What is with the demonisation of the working class? They were oppressed just like the black community.

Christy42

2u2me wrote: »

It's just surprising the parallels between what we're seeing now and Mao's cultural revolution. They literally erased history and the statues were the first to go.



source

I stop reading the thread and it still has the the same old tired arguments.

What history has been erased is a question that no one will answer.

Yes if you wish to remove history you also have to remove the statues. However the other way around does not follow. A man was driving fast and killed someone. Does that mean I am trying to kill someone if I go the speed limit on the motorway?

Yellow_Fern

Christy42 wrote: »

I stop reading the thread and it still has the the same old tired arguments.

What history has been erased is a question that no one will answer.

Yes if you wish to remove history you also have to remove the statues. However the other way around does not follow. A man was driving fast and killed someone. Does that mean I am trying to kill someone if I go the speed limit on the motorway?

Correct, BLM is not trying to remove our history...

BLM is trying to rewrite history, which is perhaps even more dangerous. The 1691 Project, although it had some merits tried to convince Americans that the USA was founded in protect slavery. On this very thread we have seen people trying to claim that European economies were based on slavery and that Ireland's wealth is stained with the sin of slavery. Look I agree with you that the toppling of the Colston statue is not a big deal but its the associated movements that gravely concern me.

2u2me

Christy42 wrote: »

I stop reading the thread and it still has the the same old tired arguments.

What history has been erased is a question that no one will answer.

Yes if you wish to remove history you also have to remove the statues. However the other way around does not follow. A man was driving fast and killed someone. Does that mean I am trying to kill someone if I go the speed limit on the motorway?

Well I'm just trying to figure out where this is leading to. First we heard "absolish/defund the police' everyone was explaining that's not what they mean.

Turns out that's exactly what they meant. Now people are saying they 'only want to remove statues' I fear it doesn't end there. I guess time will tell if they make a move for the libraries and the printing presses. Plenty of racist books in there I'd say.

Danzy

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Maybe but why does it more like 2020 working class man and not a 17th slave trader? What is with the demonisation of the working class? They were oppressed just like the black community.

A very large segment of the left never forgave the Working class for not falling in line behind them, for having so much wrongthink views.

For being so working class oiks


That's a growing problem and accelerating.

mick087

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

Ah, yes. More mockery of the white working class.

The people who made this must be very brave to side with capitalism, mega-corporations, mass media, international finance and practically every government on earth.

Its easy to pick on the poorist in society and blame them for being the racist. Makes people feel safe and secure.

joe40

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Correct, BLM is not trying to remove our history...

BLM is trying to rewrite history, which is perhaps even more dangerous. The 1691 Project, although it had some merits tried to convince Americans that the USA was founded in protect slavery. On this very thread we have seen people trying to claim that European economies were based on slavery and that Ireland's wealth is stained with the sin of slavery. Look I agree with you that the toppling of the Colston statue is not a big deal but its the associated movements that gravely concern me.

European wealth was based on imperialism. What is wrong with accepting and acknowledging that. It's not about blame. The British committed atrocities to build their empire as did the other powerful European countries.

American wealth was built using slavery that not really in doubt.
Not much can be done now but let's not whitewash the past, it was brutal.

And as for working class how exactly to you define working class. I would consider myself to be very much working class. What is the criteria.

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

European wealth was based on imperialism. What is wrong with accepting and acknowledging that. It's not about blame. The British committed atrocities to build their empire as did the other powerful European countries.

American wealth was built using slavery that not really in doubt.
Not much can be done now but let's not whitewash the past, it was brutal.

And as for working class how exactly to you define working class. I would consider myself to be very much working class. What is the criteria.

Of course it is, and if it wasnt europe it d be someone else, make no mistake if Africa had the chance they d have conquered all around em aswelll and going by some of what ive seen we d be a helluva lot worse for it!

Alot of Africa actually made its wealth off slavery aswell, and worse.. im just using africa as an example.

Life is brutal, human beings are brutal and no matter how many protests there are, one country will be more powerful than another and will use that strength to stay that way, be it economic or military.. same goes for people...

Its literally human nature.

How ye all liking the death and destruction caused by the protests? and lets not white wash it, the catalyst for all this was "peaceful protest".

Think it ll be worth it?

Madeleine Birchfield

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Correct, BLM is not trying to remove our history...

BLM is trying to rewrite history, which is perhaps even more dangerous. The 1691 Project, although it had some merits tried to convince Americans that the USA was founded in protect slavery. On this very thread we have seen people trying to claim that European economies were based on slavery and that Ireland's wealth is stained with the sin of slavery. Look I agree with you that the toppling of the Colston statue is not a big deal but its the associated movements that gravely concern me.

Ireland's wealth, what wealth? Ireland was poor as feck since the British took over and whatever wealth Ireland had was stolen by the British elite who ruled Ireland for 300 years, the same British whose hands are stained with the sin of slavery of black Americans, with the sins of attempted genocide in Ireland under Oliver Cromwell, with the sins of the Great Potato Famine.

The Irish were literally viewed as not 'white' by the British and Americans until the 20th century. Many Irish were discriminated against in Britain and America with statements like 'no Irish need apply' or 'no Negros, no Irish, no dogs', and the Irish like black people were frequently portrayed as monkeys in the British and American culture.

If the BLM movement cannot acknowledge that the Irish were screwed over by the British and Americans for their systemic racism against Irish in the same time period between 1606 and 1921 for not really being 'white', then the BLM movement should stick to rightfully criticising the British and Americans for their role in slavery and systemic racism and leave Ireland out of the discussion.

robinph

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

If the BLM movement cannot acknowledge that the Irish were screwed over by the British and Americans for their systemic racism against Irish in the same time period between 1606 and 1921 for not really being 'white', then the BLM movement should stick to rightfully criticising the British and Americans for their role in slavery and systemic racism and leave Ireland out of the discussion.

Are Irish people still being discriminated against in the same way? No.

That is probably why the BLM protests are not about Irish people.

Yellow_Fern

joe40 wrote: »

European wealth was based on imperialism. What is wrong with accepting and acknowledging that

You are going to have provide evidence of that. A lot of wealth comes from innovation rather than extractive industries.

joe40 wrote: »

. What is wrong with accepting and acknowledging that. It's not about blame. The British committed atrocities to build their empire as did the other powerful European countries.

There is doubt that it was brutal and that they did commit atrocities but were those atrocities the basis for its wealth? I don't think so. Europe was wealthy long before the slave trade began.

joe40 wrote: »

.
American wealth was built using slavery that not really in doubt.
There is Not much can be done now but let's not whitewash the past, it was brutal.

The point I made was that the US was not founded to protect slavery.
As it turns out slavery is not a great way to build wealth. A country of slaves will produce less than a country of freemen because they have less to gain. In the US slavery was biggest in the south, which is the poorest region today. Slavery was big also in NE Brazil and the Caribbean. They are also poor regions today. Slavery is a terrible way to build wealth.

Yellow_Fern

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

Ireland's wealth, what wealth? Ireland was poor as feck since the British took over and whatever wealth Ireland had was stolen by the British elite who ruled Ireland for 300 years, the same British whose hands are stained with the sin of slavery of black Americans, with the sins of attempted genocide in Ireland under Oliver Cromwell, with the sins of the Great Potato Famine.

The Irish were literally viewed as not 'white' by the British and Americans until the 20th century. Many Irish were discriminated against in Britain and America with statements like 'no Irish need apply' or 'no Negros, no Irish, no dogs', and the Irish like black people were frequently portrayed as monkeys in the British and American culture.

If the BLM movement cannot acknowledge that the Irish were screwed over by the British and Americans for their systemic racism against Irish in the same time period between 1606 and 1921 for not really being 'white', then the BLM movement should stick to rightfully criticising the British and Americans for their role in slavery and systemic racism and leave Ireland out of the discussion.

Of course. That been said there was always some wealth here.

Likewise will Algeria pay us reparations for the sack of Baltimore and will Swahili Africans be excluded from the reparations on account of their profiting from the slave trade
The people making these arguments dont understand that wealth is created all the time. They think wealth is static and is just exchanged and the slave wealth has been diluted down by the enormous wealth creation since.

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

Of course it is, and if it wasnt europe it d be someone else, make no mistake if Africa had the chance they d have conquered all around em aswelll and going by some of what ive seen we d be a helluva lot worse for it!

Alot of Africa actually made its wealth off slavery aswell, and worse.. im just using africa as an example.

Life is brutal, human beings are brutal and no matter how many protests there are, one country will be more powerful than another and will use that strength to stay that way, be it economic or military.. same goes for people...

Its literally human nature.

How ye all liking the death and destruction caused by the protests? and lets not white wash it, the catalyst for all this was "peaceful protest".

Think it ll be worth it?

Yeah I absolutely agree there would be dominant groups that would overcome other group that seems to be the course of recorded history.

But right now as someone living in a western democracy i think I'm probably living in the best human society ever. I have technological and medical advances, I have laws protecting my rights and equality, I would not want to live in any other era of human history.

So what is wrong with fully acknowledging and understanding history. Learn from the past.
We have a very good society but not perfect for everyone.
What is wrong with trying to ensure that everyone has the rights and opportunities I have.

I'm a white person but this isn't about blame. As an Irish person I'm not responsible for atrocities carried by the IRA, but I won't hide from them and I will argue the overall conflict was justified.

Native American groups fought with each other for sure, but Americans virtually wiped them all out.

Christy42

2u2me wrote: »

Well I'm just trying to figure out where this is leading to. First we heard "absolish/defund the police' everyone was explaining that's not what they mean.

Turns out that's exactly what they meant. Now people are saying they 'only want to remove statues' I fear it doesn't end there. I guess time will tell if they make a move for the libraries and the printing presses. Plenty of racist books in there I'd say.

Great you got nothing and are still pushing the same tired argument in spite of it.

Remember the protestors have thought more people about Colston's life than that statue ever did. Especially since the description left out a large chunk.

Danzy

robinph wrote: »

Are Irish people still being discriminated against in the same way? No.

That is probably why the BLM protests are not about Irish people.

For a tiny group it I'd is about Black people. In most places it is a White middle class narcissism trip.

robinph

Danzy wrote: »

For a tiny group it I'd is about Black people. In most places it is a White middle class narcissism trip.

Yeah, because it's not possible for white people to notice or care about the situation that another group of people are in and want to do something about it.

El_Duderino 09

Danzy wrote: »

For a tiny group it I'd is about Black people. In most places it is a White middle class narcissism trip.

So what if white, middle-class people take part? There's an active thread on Boards, giving out about how there aren't equal health screening services for men and women. Some posters said it was up to men to campaign for men's issues and others went bananas about the idea that only the effected group should campaign to help that group. The argument there was that if it's the right thing to do then people should support it.

The same argument applies here. So what if white people or middle class people take part? And so what if they get gratification from it? What difference does that make?

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

Yeah I absolutely agree there would be dominant groups that would overcome other group that seems to be the course of recorded history.

But right now as someone living in a western democracy i think I'm probably living in the best human society ever. I have technological and medical advances, I have laws protecting my rights and equality, I would not want to live in any other era of human history.

So what is wrong with fully acknowledging and understanding history. Learn from the past.
We have a very good society but not perfect for everyone.
What is wrong with trying to ensure that everyone has the rights and opportunities I have.

I'm a white person but this isn't about blame. As an Irish person I'm not responsible for atrocities carried by the IRA, but I won't hide from them and I will argue the overall conflict was justified.

Native American groups fought with each other for sure, but Americans virtually wiped them all out.

Are we fully acknowledging it or are we picking sides these days? From what i can see from alot of people is they are maximizing one side of the argument while refusing to give any consideration to the other side or to any of the negative aspects of the side they ve chosen.

Are Ethnic groups being as brutally kept down in the western world as currently being portrayed by protests? No.. not at all its overblown... Does racism exist ? of course but only to a certain extent in the western world.. as seen by the overreaction of masses its heavily frowned upon there literally is no room for it and as a result incidents are minimized.

I think right now the argument is very lopsided and people simply arent willing to be balanced.. when you have people losing jobs because they dont agree with a popular opinion you have to ask yourself is this the right way forward nearly bullying people into your way of thinking... it resembles other times in history and is a dangerous precedent to set.

robinph

Cupatae wrote: »

Are we fully acknowledging it or are we picking sides these days? From what i can see from alot of people is they are maximizing one side of the argument while refusing to give any consideration to the other side or to any of the negative aspects of the side they ve chosen.

Are Ethnic groups being as brutally kept down in the western world as currently being portrayed by protests? No.. not at all its overblown... Does racism exist ? of course but only to a certain extent in the western world.. as seen by the overreaction of masses its heavily frowned upon there literally is no room for it and as a result incidents are minimized.

I think right now the argument is very lopsided and people simply arent willing to be balanced.. when you have people losing jobs because they dont agree with a popular opinion you have to ask yourself is this the right way forward nearly bullying people into your way of thinking... it resembles other times in history and is a dangerous precedent to set.

Is being racist a protected category now? Are racists being victimised because they cannot practice their racism? It's not something that there is a balance of opinion on.

You can have an opinion on the effects of racism and how it effects people, but racism itself is not something that is a matter of opinion.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cupatae wrote: »

Are we fully acknowledging it or are we picking sides these days? From what i can see from alot of people is they are maximizing one side of the argument while refusing to give any consideration to the other side or to any of the negative aspects of the side they ve chosen.

Are Ethnic groups being as brutally kept down in the western world as currently being portrayed by protests? No.. not at all its overblown... Does racism exist ? of course but only to a certain extent in the western world.. as seen by the overreaction of masses its heavily frowned upon there literally is no room for it and as a result incidents are minimized.

I think right now the argument is very lopsided and people simply arent willing to be balanced.. when you have people losing jobs because they dont agree with a popular opinion you have to ask yourself is this the right way forward nearly bullying people into your way of thinking... it resembles other times in history and is a dangerous precedent to set.

Is it fair qualified people aren't getting these jobs in the first place because of their skin colour?

It seems strange that you condemn bullying despite condoning racism.

Eric Cartman

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Is it fair qualified people aren't getting these jobs in the first place because of their skin colour?

It seems strange that you condemn bullying despite condoning racism.

yes, white men being overlooked for jobs, despite being the best candidate because of diversity quotas or reports by D&I companies is unfair. As it was unfair in the past when it happened to non white people.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eric Cartman wrote: »

yes, white men being overlooked for jobs, despite being the best candidate because of diversity quotas or reports by D&I companies is unfair. As it was unfair in the past when it happened to non white people.

Ah, the old red herring fallacy

In the event that what you are depicting here are atually real proveable documented happenings (not saying they arent, but it IS you) then I would agree with you.

Anyway, back on track: is it ok to condone bullying while condemning racism? And I never for once said it was happening specfici to one side of the spectrum: that was your smokescreen, not mine.

Danzy

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So what if white, middle-class people take part? There's an active thread on Boards, giving out about how there aren't equal health screening services for men and women. Some posters said it was up to men to campaign for men's issues and others went bananas about the idea that only the effected group should campaign to help that group. The argument there was that if it's the right thing to do then people should support it.

The same argument applies here. So what if white people or middle class people take part? And so what if they get gratification from it? What difference does that make?

It's about them at this stage and I personally feel it is long gone past counterproductive for black people and that the middle class white activists will keep going till they get bored with it, keep damaging till they walk away.

Danzy

robinph wrote: »

Yeah, because it's not possible for white people to notice or care about the situation that another group of people are in and want to do something about it.

It is but that is not what is happening here.