Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

mick087

2u2me wrote: »

Apparently this cop refused to kneel. How dare he. They blow smoke in his face, could be trasmitting corona virus also, also shine lasers in his eyes as well as verbally assault him.
They want subservience.

https://twitter.com/DarrenPlymouth/status/1274233550867488768?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1274233550867488768&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rt.com%2Fusa%2F492452-police-officers-calm-protesters%2F

This is the problem that some people will face if they dont kneel.
The people in that video are deliberately intimidating the cop.
Law enforcement does need to change no doubt about that but no person going to work should have to be dealing with this.

Rodin

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

12% of homicides.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls



Depends on what the statement is based on.

A scientist stating a fact based on empirical evidence is not racist.
A person taking a total guess is racist.
- if said person is not making the statement based on evidence, then what are they basing it on?



Yep.

Your 12% is nonsense.
Your numbers are for 2013.

Danzy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

total 3005, black offender 409 (actually abotu 17%, my maths was never great)

You will, of course, be asking cupatae how he got his 52%, correct?

Are you deliberately going for this statistic or is it cognitive dissonance.

mick087

This situation is totaly out of hand now. Watching BBC today full of nice middle class people telling the Brits how privileged the white people are.


These people need to live on an estate like Harpurhey in Manchester, Possilpark Glasgow, Ladywood in Birmingham, toxteth in liverpool, Hackney in London and in Bristol Stapleton Road. Lets see these people live on these estates for a year on a low minimum wage or dole money and see what there view is on white privilege and racism is then.

Of course no one will do this from a nice middle class bubble, Why should they? They want a better life not actually help anyone intodays world.


Same here in Ireland, if you think being white is a privallage there are many estates here in Ireland you should vist, better still live. Then come and tell me white is a privilege. Wealth, education and health is a privallaige and dont let anyone kid you otherwise.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Danzy wrote: »

Are you deliberately going for this statistic or is it cognitive dissonance.

It's more accurate than the other posters link.

Oh wait: he never provided a link.

My point is: the statement of 'blacks commit more crime' is either based on evidence the poster has provided, or if need on a guess (and if the latter, is racist).

Again, if someine starts a sentence with, 'blacks are...." and then finish with a statement they made up - which he did - is racist.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It's more accurate than the other posters link.

Oh wait: he never provided a link.

My point is: the statement of 'blacks commit more crime' is either based on evidence the poster has provided, or if need on a guess (and if the latter, is racist).

Again, if someine starts a sentence with, 'blacks are...." and then finish with a statement they made up - which he did - is racist.

Learn how to read data. The table you linked before from 2013 shows that black people committed 47% of the murders, not 12%. The top line is for white victims. You mistook that line for a total of all beneath it instead of realising you have to manually add them together. Thus my quip about "Don't black lives matter?" You left them out.

For 2018: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls

When the race of the offender is known, 54.9% of murders were committed by black people.

If you want to take issue with that, the FBI itself states When the race of the offender was known, 54.9 percent were Black or African American, 42.4 percent were White, and 2.7 percent were of other races.


I understand that the statistics are awkward for you. But they're there. There are too many murders committed by black people and over 90% of them are killing other black people.

Danzy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It's more accurate than the other posters link.

Oh wait: he never provided a link.

My point is: the statement of 'blacks commit more crime' is either based on evidence the poster has provided, or if need on a guess (and if the latter, is racist).

Again, if someine starts a sentence with, 'blacks are...." and then finish with a statement they made up - which he did - is racist.

No, your data is so wrong that it has to be either deliberate or subconscious.

60% of violent crime in America is African American, circa 50% of murders, 60% of burglaries , most car robberies etc.

This is not news. That is cultural, in the community and can only be changed by changing the community.

Cupatae

joe40 wrote: »

It's very clear what you mean. All sane people agree with your position. Your own words.

Then you say the topic can't be discussed in a civil manner.

Work away sir, I'm fed up this conversation.

You can't engage in a civil manner unless I fully agree with your position.

Ok you seem very sensitive joe, apologies didnt meant to upset you i was more referring to people that agree with the madness in the video i linked but we ll agree to disagree and leave it at that!

Cupatae

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It's more accurate than the other posters link.

Oh wait: he never provided a link.

My point is: the statement of 'blacks commit more crime' is either based on evidence the poster has provided, or if need on a guess (and if the latter, is racist).

Again, if someine starts a sentence with, 'blacks are...." and then finish with a statement they made up - which he did - is racist.

According to you,

I cant say black people (factually mind you ) commit more crime as this by you makes me a racist. (i provided you with statistics available to anyone it wasn't made up)

But on the flip side

Its ok for people to use collective terms such as white privilege and guilt white people by saying they have it is, this isnt racist.

You have willfuly tried to skew numbers and been caught out quite badly by people that are very good with numbers.

I think if anyone is racist here its you with your selective racism towards white people.

CrankyHaus

A demonstration to "Protect Our Monuments" just went down the North Strand towards the Sean Russell statue in Fairview Park. Looking at the crowd I'd say it would be a brave man to touch it.

Tony EH

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

Pelosi has continued to remain silent on her own father’s decision to dedicate confederate statue's during his time as mayor of Baltimore . She actually attended the commemoration ceremonies of the Confederate statues with him.


Isn't that the new standard the left holds everyone else to? As pathetic as it is.

No.

People need to stop calling movements like BLM "the left". It just sounds stupid.

Black Lives Matter don't represent the left. They are interested in a specific set of outcomes, that they have designed, that aren't exclusively the aims of any political wing of politics.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Tony EH wrote: »

No.

People need to stop calling movements like BLM "the left". It just sounds stupid.

Black Lives Matter don't represent the left. They are interested in a specific set of outcomes, that they have designed, that aren't exclusively the aims of any political wing of politics.

Nor are they exclusively left.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

Learn how to read data. The table you linked before from 2013 shows that black people committed 47% of the murders, not 12%. The top line is for white victims. You mistook that line for a total of all beneath it instead of realising you have to manually add them together. Thus my quip about "Don't black lives matter?" You left them out.

For 2018: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls

When the race of the offender is known, 54.9% of murders were committed by black people.

If you want to take issue with that, the FBI itself states When the race of the offender was known, 54.9 percent were Black or African American, 42.4 percent were White, and 2.7 percent were of other races.


I understand that the statistics are awkward for you. But they're there. There are too many murders committed by black people and over 90% of them are killing other black people.

Fair enough, I misread.

But the initial number is also wrong, do the question is: was it a racist statement to say blacks it more crime, when you don't actually know?

Edit - not you specifically, I know you didn't make the claim.

Cupatae

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fair enough, I misread.

But the initial number is also wrong, do the question is: was it a racist statement to say blacks it more crime, when you don't actually know?

Edit - not you specifically, I know you didn't make the claim.

The initial number was not wrong unless ur splitting hairs.

And again your focusing on the minuscule rather than the broader point and the broader point is correct a disproportional amount of crime is commited by black people, this isnt an opinion its a fact.

Clutching at straws now u are

Danzy

Tony EH wrote: »

No.

People need to stop calling movements like BLM "the left". It just sounds stupid.

Black Lives Matter don't represent the left. They are interested in a specific set of outcomes, that they have designed, that aren't exclusively the aims of any political wing of politics.

Their demands though are largely the preserve of the fringe left though. Unworkable goals aside.

It certainly is not the politics of African Americans who are massively religious conservatives , massively anti gay, anti immigration.

Who are the most conservative demographic in America.

stinkypinky

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fair enough, I misread.

But the initial number is also wrong, do the question is: was it a racist statement to say blacks it more crime, when you don't actually know?

Edit - not you specifically, I know you didn't make the claim.

It's no where near 13% when it's almost exclusively men committing these crimes, but yeah.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

It’s true that around 13 per cent of Americans are black, according to the latest estimates from the US Census Bureau.

And yes, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, black offenders committed 52 per cent of homicides recorded in the data between 1980 and 2008. Only 45 per cent of the offenders were white.

is_that_so

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Nor are they exclusively left.

What you tend to find with movements these days is they are very fluid and those interested in other issues on the left will often slide in and out of similar groups as it suits.

Tony EH

Danzy wrote: »

Their demands though are largely the preserve of the fringe left though.

Nonsense.

Constantly calling everything "the left" when it's something someone disagrees with is pure idiocy. All it serves to do is make people think you're an idiot.

The likes of Black Lives Matter no more represents the left or left wing wing thinking than Mickey Mouse. It's, frankly, long since become tiresome to hear everything reduced the "the left" when people are trying to argue against anything and everything they don't like and when people do it, they just drive others away from listening to their points.

It's the low minded argumentation of children.

JoeCasey

In solidarity with slaves everywhere i've thrown out all my Greek yoghurt.

Tony EH

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Nor are they exclusively left.

Exactly.

I'd be willing to bet that there are a substantial number of people in the BLM movement that couldn't care less about left wing politics. Ask them about healthcare, welfare, housing and anything like that and you'd probably draw a blank. They are concerned with a singular demographic and a specific set of goals, which seem to be changeable depending on who you listen to.

Black Lives Matter is a number of disparate groups, made up of numerous types of people, from some black lad without two cents to rub together to middle class wealthy college kids who'll end up in daddy's firm when they leave school.

There doesn't seem to be any unifying political principle involved here. Left, right or whatever.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cupatae wrote: »

The initial number was not wrong unless ur splitting hairs.

And again your focusing on the minuscule rather than the broader point and the broader point is correct a disproportional amount of crime is commited by black people, this isnt an opinion its a fact.

Clutching at straws now u are

My point was: you did not know the number when you made the sattement, so you were bluffing, thus it was a racist statement.

I admit I was wrong: you didn't know.

Danzy

Tony EH wrote: »

Nonsense.

Constantly calling everything "the left" when it's something someone disagrees with is pure idiocy. All it serves to do is make people think you're an idiot.

The likes of Black Lives Matter no more represents the left or left wing wing thinking than Mickey Mouse. It's, frankly, long since become tiresome to hear everything reduced the "the left" when people are trying to argue against anything and everything they don't like and when people do it, they just drive others away from listening to their points.

It's the low minded argumentation of children.

I get what you are saying but the left is certainly more homogenous now in thinking that even 5 years ago.

Much of what the BLM is demanding is so irrational, contradictory, and broad stroke, yet who on the left, of any hue is calling it out?

Cupatae

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

My point was: you did not know the number when you made the sattement, so you were bluffing, thus it was a racist statement.

I admit I was wrong: you didn't know.

Jesus i must be fair good so to guess completely correct. i bluffed they made up 13- 14 % of the pop and had 52% of the homicides... ridiculous calling someone racist for the truth even after uve been proven wrong, your logic is ridiculous is no wonder ur falling for the agenda hook line and sinker.

Yellow_Fern

Tony EH wrote: »

No.

People need to stop calling movements like BLM "the left". It just sounds stupid.

Black Lives Matter don't represent the left. They are interested in a specific set of outcomes, that they have designed, that aren't exclusively the aims of any political wing of politics.

I am not sure what you mean by the left. BLM doesn't represent the left per se but it is a product of US left, the far left.
The UK branch of the movement's GoFundMe page, has a statement outlining its agenda. It explains the organisation intends to be ‘guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world’.
We also can look at the anti science #ShutDownSTEM movement.
The main BLM website has some more crazy ideas including dismantling the nuclear family. Of course many supporters do not advocate all of these positions but the black lives matter movement is clearly linked to extremist fringe left ideas.

2u2me

Tony EH wrote: »

Exactly.

I'd be willing to bet that there are a substantial number of people in the BLM movement that couldn't care less about left wing politics. Ask them about healthcare, welfare, housing and anything like that and you'd probably draw a blank. They are concerned with a singular demographic and a specific set of goals, which seem to be changeable depending on who you listen to.

Black Lives Matter is a number of disparate groups, made up of numerous types of people, from some black lad without two cents to rub together to middle class wealthy college kids who'll end up in daddy's firm when they leave school.

There doesn't seem to be any unifying political principle involved here. Left, right or whatever.

Although I'd agree largely with what you're saying, the BLM movement is directly coming from intersectionality and 'standpoint theory' which is only fostered in liberal left-wing colleges and universities/Ngos/Think tanks/governments

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cupatae wrote: »

Jesus i must be fair good so to guess completely correct. i bluffed they made up 13- 14 % of the pop and had 52% of the homicides... ridiculous calling someone racist for the truth even after uve been proven wrong, your logic is ridiculous is no wonder ur falling for the agenda hook line and sinker.

It it's a guess, it's a racist statement - doesn't matter how accurate it is.

And I never once called you racist. I don't know you well enough to say if it's a one-off or part of your general character.

Cupatae

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It it's a guess, it's a racist statement - doesn't matter how accurate it is.

And I never once called you racist. I don't know you well enough to say if it's a one-off or part of your general character.

Its a guess that happens to be completely accurate ? so its a fact then? therefor not racist, these truths my be uncomfortable for a staunch follower of everything blm but it is the truth none the less.

Do you know how ridiculous it sounds saying that me stating a statistic accurately is a guess? lol

Danzy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It it's a guess, it's a racist statement - doesn't matter how accurate it is.

And I never once called you racist. I don't know you well enough to say if it's a one-off or part of your general character.

😁

Not used to being corrected are you.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cupatae wrote: »

Its a guess that happens to be completely accurate ? so its a fact then? therefor not racist, these truths my be uncomfortable for a staunch follower of everything blm but it is the truth none the less.

Do you know how ridiculous it sounds saying that me stating a statistic accurately is a guess? lol

If you didn't know, then why make the statement?

Do you know how ridiculous it sounds to make a statement and then find out whether or not it's true...?

Danzy wrote: »

��

Not used to being corrected are you.

Dunno...? WHat do you mean?

Tony EH

Danzy wrote: »

I get what you are saying but the left is certainly more homogenous now in thinking that even 5 years ago.

Again, this is nonsense.

There are many different flavours of left. There always have been, and the left were FAR more unified in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's than they are now. In fact, the left (as stawmanned by those who claim to be on the right) is practically unrecognisable today. Just because idiots, who couldn't string a cogent argument together to save their lives, point at things they don't like and call it "the left", it doesn't make it so, and it certainly doesn't speak to any kind of homogeneity.

Lumping everything, from feminism, the BBC, to gay rights, to Black Lives Matter, into a barrel called the "tHe LEft" so you can throw stones at is about as deeply an idiotic pastime as I can think of.

Danzy wrote: »

Much of what the BLM is demanding is so irrational, contradictory, and broad stroke,

There's not much within the call of BLM (not that I can find out anyway) that I could point at and call a strictly left wing principle though. They seem to be a more anarchist group in favour of some sort of black enfranchisement, and that spans people both on the left and the right. There's are right wing anarchist groups that would be completely in line with "defunding" police forces, for example, and I would reckon that anyone with a functioning mind would be in agreement with getting rid of for profit prisons, which are an appalling idea that's rife with all sorts of issues.

Black Lives Matter at the moment is a messy fuddle of mixed up ideas. But they, at their centre, are a group (r number of groups) that are concerned with racial concerns. Not, necessarily, politically left leaning ones.

Danzy wrote: »

yet who on the left, of any hue is calling it out?

Just because there isn't the same, stupid, kneejerk reaction to BLM from the so called left, as there has been from some on the right, it doesn't mean that there is support for it beyond the basic idea that in American society, being born black can sometimes come with disadvantages, when you are on a lower socio-economic scale. Even the likes of William F. Buckley would have agreed with that.

Plus, BLM have been vague, very vague, in just what it is they are looking for. So, an automatic condemnation of them isn't a particularly smart position to have, until one knows what it is exactly they want as a cohesive whole, which they have not yet shown themselves to be.

Into the bargain, a lot of folk on the left are probably more than a bit wary of even questioning Black Lives Matter, as there seems to be a lot of organisations and groups outside of BLM that are falling over themselves to look like they support them, at least the basic idea as stated above. Large conglomerates, private enterprises and giant corporations are bandwagon jumping in efforts to show their surface level right on credentials and absolutely none of them can be considered left wingers.

And then there's the issue of the murder of George Floyd which has acted as a certain unifier in the current situation. BLM has used Floyd's murder as a clarion call of sorts and this has a lot of people offering lip service support, while stopping short of full on, no questions asked support. This should be interpreted as such. The use of Floyd's murder and the protests surrounding it makes people very wary of saying "I support BLM, but...", because the obvious retort to that is "Then you don't support BLM". So, in that case, given the current heated nature of what's happening in the wake of Floyd's murder and to a lesser extent the killing of Rayshard Brooks, people are reticent to say anything at all.

We'll see, as things go on, just how much support BLM can gather and hold, as they make their wants clearer to everyone. I suspect that the reason why so many are in the dark and quiet about it, is that they just are not that clued in to what BLM actually stands for.