Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

osarusan

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

But the idea of selecting some portraits of some leaders who were involved in a particular type of racism (slave trading) strikes me as a little hypocritical. So if they are going to open that Pandora’s box, well then I would like them to look for all racism.

I can see the point that if they are to go back and add this extra info about politicians who were involved in the slave trade, then shouldn't they add extra info about other historical wrongs.

But at the same time, I can understand why a group who are focused on (for example) the slave trade as the historical wrong they want highlighted, are going to limit their efforts to that particular focus.

If people think that other historical wrongs such as what happened in Ireland, or Scotland, or Burma, or elsewhere, perhaps it's up to those people to fight for those wrongs to be highlighted also. I can't imagine that the people charged with making these revisions are voluntarily going to cast a wider net than they are being pressured to do.

Yellow_Fern

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well, anti racism (particular anti-black racism) have been the most vocal activists. So those opposed to anti-racism have made the least possible concession by adding information on connections to black slavery.

If you want to campaign to add information the other issues you mentioned, you've seen what it takes to achieve it as BLM has paved the way for you.

Your words cant take away the fact that I am also anti racist, even though I am anti BLM and anti throwing statues into the sea.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I love Irish heritage. That's why I'm not afraid of losing Irish heritage. Knowing the facts about history can't hurt me because I don't mind if the history isn't black and white (hint: history is never black and white - it's much more interesting than that). I find that those most afraid of "erasing" history due to other cultures expressing their own culture (as if it were possible to erase history) are the least informed on history and culture.

Anecdote that adds nothing.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The English who oppose the anti-racists are undoubtedly the least informed on the issues. Most didn't know about Colston and only became fans of Colston when they heard anti-racists were opposed to him. (Full disclosure: I didn't know about Colston myself until his statue was toppled)

Unknowable claim. I agree that most people didn't know Colston but neither many any of the activists.

Everything in your posts implies you want to go beyond installing new information on the paintings' plaques and remove them altogether. This is based on historical illiteracy. For example two of the figures in the paintings are of Robert Peel and William Gladstone, whose families were involved in the slave trade. Is it really honest to imply that the paintings of these two giants of 19th UK politics are a celebration or a veneration of slavery? Lets not forget both of these men were abolitionists.

ProfessorPlum

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well, the status quo was to not even look at the historical figures or be curious about whether there was any unflattering history and certainly not to publicise any of that information. As a result of the summer of protests, they have been dragged, kicking and screaming, to review some figures.

It's too easy to overlook the cause of them even looking at the figures and complain that they're not looking for all kinds of wrongdoing, but that would be a mistake. The reason they're looking at these figures at all is not because they're curious about the figures in question and genuinely want to know about them. They're doing it because of the pressure put on them directly be the protests. They're doing the minimum possible to placate the protesters.

So it's fine to complain that they're not looking for anti-irish (or whatever discrimination you want), but that doesn't take from the achievement of other protests.

So in practice, you don't support BLM. But I don't think you can deny the success of the BLM protests. This review of these figures is a direct impact.

Of course the reason they’re looking at them is pressure. I just find it hypocritical to acknowledge one incidence of racism, while ignoring another on the next plinth.

Re the success of BLM, while it may have achieved the removal (temporarily) of some statues from the Shelbourne, and the erection of some explanatory material underneath others, I have very real concerns that the movement is causing very real rifts in race relations in the US and other countries.

robinph

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Unknowable claim. I agree that most people didn't know Colston but neither many any of the activists.

Colston was thrown in the harbour in Bristol, by Bristolians and during the period of still relatively locked down from travelling around the country.

Whilst there may be a couple of people from Bristol who had never heard the name Colston before, they are probably all preschool aged. There will have been a few residents of the city who didn't know his involvement in slavery, but they were not the people taking part in the protest.

His name is everywhere in the city and his involvement in slavery is well known among people who have just a passing interest in the city they live in.

Yellow_Fern

robinph wrote: »

Colston was thrown in the harbour in Bristol, by Bristolians and during the period of still relatively locked down from travelling around the country.

Whilst there may be a couple of people from Bristol who had never heard the name Colston before, they are probably all preschool aged. There will have been a few residents of the city who didn't know his involvement in slavery, but they were not the people taking part in the protest.

His name is everywhere in the city and his involvement in slavery is well known among people who have just a passing interest in the city they live in.

You have no evidence of that. It was thrown in the water by small mob who could be from anywhere.

robinph

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

You have no evidence of that. It was thrown in the water by small mob who could be from anywhere.

They could have been from the moon as well.

But that the protest was happening in Bristol, on the same day as multiple other similar protests were happening in cities across the country, travel around the country was severely curtailed at the time and basically only Bristolians knew who Colston was until that evening. I'd be happy to put money on the vast majority of those hanging around on Colston Avenue, around the corner from Colston Hall and infront of Colston Tower whilst they pulled down the statue of Colston were themselves residents of Bristol.

Achebe

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-54186047

Indigenous protesters in Colombia have toppled a statue of Spanish conquistador Sebastián de Belalcázar in the south-western city of Popayán.
Police looked on as members of the Misak community used ropes to tear down the equestrian figure of de Belalcázar, who founded the city in 1537.
Indigenous leaders said he represented five centuries of genocide and slavery.
Popayán's mayor said it was an act of violence against a symbol of a multicultural city.
Belalcázar led numerous expeditions in north-western parts of South America, also founding what is now Ecuador's capital Quito.

El_Duderino 09

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Your words cant take away the fact that I am also anti racist, even though I am anti BLM and anti throwing statues into the sea.


Anecdote that adds nothing.

Unknowable claim. I agree that most people didn't know Colston but neither many any of the activists.

Everything in your posts implies you want to go beyond installing new information on the paintings' plaques and remove them altogether. This is based on historical illiteracy. For example two of the figures in the paintings are of Robert Peel and William Gladstone, whose families were involved in the slave trade. Is it really honest to imply that the paintings of these two giants of 19th UK politics are a celebration or a veneration of slavery? Lets not forget both of these men were abolitionists.

As a matter of interest, what specifically have I said that I "want to go beyond installing new information on the paintings' plaques and remove them altogether".

I haven't said the paintings are a venerationnof slavery. Nor was the Colston statue a direct veneration of slavery, in my opinion. It was a veneration of a man who was directly involved in the same trade.

Danzy

The only person arrested was not from Bristol. Like many others that day. He is also from a wealthy land owning family in Somerset.

Edgware

Danzy wrote: »

The only person arrested was not from Bristol. Like many others that day. He is also from a wealthy land owning family in Somerset.

A bit like the rave at Oliver Bond House. All caused by people from another area

El_Duderino 09

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Of course the reason they’re looking at them is pressure. I just find it hypocritical to acknowledge one incidence of racism, while ignoring another on the next plinth.
...

You say it's hypocritical. But you haven't said who is being hypocritical?

So, who is being hypocritical?

robinph

Danzy wrote: »

The only person arrested was not from Bristol. Like many others that day. He is also from a wealthy land owning family in Somerset.

Somerset isn't exactly far away from Bristol, it is literally just across the river and bits of what people would consider the city are in Somerset. To claim someone isn't a local to Bristol because they have a big house in Somerset would be like saying someone isn't from Dublin because they live in Lucan.

ProfessorPlum

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You say it's hypocritical. But you haven't said who is being hypocritical?

So, who is being hypocritical?

Anyone really who thinks what going on with the Parliament’s art collection is anything other than virtue signalling I suppose.

El_Duderino 09

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Anyone really who thinks what going on with the Parliament’s art collection is anything other than virtue signalling I suppose.

So the ones carrying out the review are being hypocritical. That's fine.

Since they're only doing a review at all because of the trojan work of the BLM activists, we know how to make them look for forms of racism. If you want them to also consider other forms of racism, you know what to do.

I'll make a guess and say i think you're just saying this as a round about way of criticizing BLM because you don't support them in practice. I don't think you have any intention of encouraging the UK Parliament to review those figures looking for any of the behaviors you have mentioned. I think you're just looking for an angle to view the results of the BLM protests in a negative light.

To paraphrase your point, "if they don't do the review for ever form of bad behaviour then they shouldn't do it for any form of bad behaviour". But the reality is that all the protests throughout the summer have achieved getting parliament to take a novel step and undertake a review. Now the road has been paved by BLM, other groups can travel that road. Obviously, any group who treads that road will face all the opposition from people like yourself who will say the support your casue in every way except in practice.

Yellow_Fern

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So the ones carrying out the review are being hypocritical. That's fine.

Since they're only doing a review at all because of the trojan work of the BLM activists, we know how to make them look for forms of racism. If you want them to also consider other forms of racism, you know what to do.

I'll make a guess and say i think you're just saying this as a round about way of criticizing BLM because you don't support them in practice. I don't think you have any intention of encouraging the UK Parliament to review those figures looking for any of the behaviors you have mentioned. I think you're just looking for an angle to view the results of the BLM protests in a negative light.

To paraphrase your point, "if they don't do the review for ever form of bad behaviour then they shouldn't do it for any form of bad behaviour". But the reality is that all the protests throughout the summer have achieved getting parliament to take a novel step and undertake a review. Now the road has been paved by BLM, other groups can travel that road. Obviously, any group who treads that road will face all the opposition from people like yourself who will say the support your casue in every way except in practice.

Can you explain why Peel and Gladstone are so contemptible?

ProfessorPlum

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So the ones carrying out the review are being hypocritical. That's fine.

Since they're only doing a review at all because of the trojan work of the BLM activists, we know how to make them look for forms of racism. If you want them to also consider other forms of racism, you know what to do.

I'll make a guess and say i think you're just saying this as a round about way of criticizing BLM because you don't support them in practice. I don't think you have any intention of encouraging the UK Parliament to review those figures looking for any of the behaviors you have mentioned. I think you're just looking for an angle to view the results of the BLM protests in a negative light.

To paraphrase your point, "if they don't do the review for ever form of bad behaviour then they shouldn't do it for any form of bad behaviour". But the reality is that all the protests throughout the summer have achieved getting parliament to take a novel step and undertake a review. Now the road has been paved by BLM, other groups can travel that road. Obviously, any group who treads that road will face all the opposition from people like yourself who will say the support your casue in every way except in practice.

People like me? Really. You have no idea.

How is putting information plaques underneath any artwork in the British Parliament going to change the real issues that are hurting ordinary black people right now? My point is that it is an essentially pointless exercise. It is virtue signaling in the extreme, called for by middle class people who are mush less affected, if at all, by the very real injustices suffered by minority groups. The money and effort put into such a pointless exercise would be better employed elsewhere.

But no, people like you will pat themselves on the back and celebrate the great changes a plaque hanging below an art piece in the British Parliament will surely impact on vulnerable people’s lives. Well done!

Tony EH

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

How is putting information plaques underneath any artwork in the British Parliament going to change the real issues that are hurting ordinary black people right now?

It won't do a damn thing. It's cheap optics which allows a certain high ground and it looks good.

But that's all people are really interested in these days.

robinph

A new Bristolian appeared on the empty plinth today. Could say that he also has some positive and negative aspects to his life, but hopefully he gets to stay a bit longer before the council pull him down too.

robinph

robinph wrote: »

A new Bristolian appeared on the empty plinth today. Could say that he also has some positive and negative aspects to his life, but hopefully he gets to stay a bit longer before the council pull him down too.

Could that be anymore offensive
A white man dressed entirely in black, forcing a black man to speak for him.

biko

For tomorrow's court date.

Protesters have been warned to stay away from the court hearing of four people accused of pulling down the statue of Edward Colston last summer.

Rhian Graham, 29, Milo Ponsford, 25, Jake Skuse, 32, and Sage Willoughby, 21, all of no fixed abode, will appear before Bristol Court

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/09/four-people-charged-edward-colston-statue-toppling-bristol/
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/four-charged-with-criminal-damage-of-statue-of-edward-colston/ar-BB1bMpH7
https://guernseypress.com/news/uk-news/2020/12/09/four-charged-with-criminal-damage-following-toppling-of-bristols-colston-statue/

alan partridge aha

Throw the book at these vandals.

NIMAN

Strange that all 4 are homeless, or at least of no fixed abode.

ShamNNspace

NIMAN wrote: »

Strange that all 4 are homeless, or at least of no fixed abode.

Squatters, part of the "all property is theft" crew

robinph

NIMAN wrote: »

Strange that all 4 are homeless, or at least of no fixed abode.

Students, or been furloughed, and moved back to the parents or a friends temporarily or maybe just short term rental. No fixed abode is used for a lot more than just people who are living under a cardboard box.

El_Duderino 09

alan partridge aha wrote: »

Throw the book at these vandals.

They might throw the book at them. But they have done something incredible. They might sacrifice for the movements they inspired but the impact it has had, is huge in the uk and beyond.

That statue being toppled was the reason the UK government reviewed thousands of statues and decided to move them to museums, starting a national conversation about the nature of statues and who we want to revere and who we don’t.

biko

Did you know?

After Colston had been torn down a statue of Black Power activist Jen Reid, who helped tear down the Colston statue, was erected but was removed after a day.




Then a small statue of Darth Vader was put there for a while.

suicide_circus

I dont think they should have the book thrown at them really. Slap on the wrist at most.

The heat needs to be taken out of politics at the moment. Far too much hyperbole at play. The scourge of intersectionality and victimhood politics will not be helped by making martyrs of these folk.

FTA69

Fair play to these people, well done to them.

WrenBoy

biko wrote: »

Then a small statue of Darth Vader was put there for a while.

The Empire did nothing Wrong !

robinph

biko wrote: »

Then a small statue of Darth Vader was put there for a while.

A proof that the camera most certainly does lie, and the photos of crowded beaches etc during the summer might not always have been quite what the angle of the taken photo was trying to show....

I was very disappointed on seeing the Darth Vader statue in person as it was only about a foot tall, if even that. Having "met" David Prowse back in the day when he came to school dressed as the Green Cross Code man I know he was way bigger in person.