Autistic man gunned down in Jerusalem

Tell me how

Edgware wrote: »

Sorry but the Palestinians have dropped priority on the list of condemnation. Theyre down below the Hong Kong students, Muslims in China, travellers in Ireland.
In the near future the "concerns" of Sorcha and Oisin over being graded as D students by their teachers will take precededence with Joe and the Irish Times. Floyd and the rest will be a distant memory and the " concerned youth" will be enquiring about their J1 visas for 2021. Has anyone heard from Greta lately? No one interested in the views of a white priveleged European anymore?

Could say the same about those espousing righteousness on these pages as to why All Lives Matter.
They don't give a sh*t about white lives who struggle to buy homes, or who are dealing with homelessness, or are long term unemployed, or have special needs or about the lives of those, now in future, who will be affected by environmental issues.

But when people start standing up for Black people all of a sudden they come out of the woodwork with faux concern.

Greta is still doing her strike, (so much for those who said she'd lose interest when the public gaze was off her) and the climate issue is still there to be dealt with. That'll be something for you and de lads to get worked up about once again.

KiKi III

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It seems like an unfortunate case of misunderstandings all round really -


Autistic Palestinian shot by Israeli police buried amid revenge call


But rather like the George Floyd case, it appears some people are indeed keen to turn an unfortunate misunderstanding into a political football to support their own cause -


The secretary general of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), Saab Erekat, said it was "crime that will be met with impunity unless the world stops treating Israel as a state above the law".

He drew parallels with the killing of George Floyd in the US, which has sparked widespread protests.

Palestinians and Israelis protested against the killing of Mr Halaq in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Jaffa on Saturday and Sunday. Some carried posters saying "Justice for Iyad" and "Palestinian lives matter".


It could never be as simple as someone made an awful mistake which will haunt them for the rest of their days, could it?

Well, in most cases the reaction will depend on whether they are held accountable for the mistake.

Should you be able to say “I’m sorry, I made a terrible mistake” and that’s considered good enough for taking someone’s life?

James Brown

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

this is a local forum, for local issues

So we don't trade with outsiders. Don't have financial dealing/dependence on outsiders and our economy and politics is never effected by the policies and actions of outsiders?



On the topic: Police services around the world need proper training on dealing with people with mental and physical health issues. There have been numerous killings around the world because of poor training. Usually minorities too,

Tokyo

Edgware wrote: »

He just saw a short few lines on this incident and goggled the rest. Trying to look concerned and internationalist. Next he will say he has a daily subscription to the Botswana Tribune.

Mod: Quit it with the childish responses.

Flickerfusion

donvito99 wrote: »

What business has an Irish person reading the times of Israel?

What business has a random poster questioning the right of Irish people to read international newspapers, or comment on or discuss international politics?

Are we supposed to be some kind of inward looking, narrow minded simpletons, living in a bubble and never engaging with the world?!

This is an active current affairs forum and Ireland has historically always taken a very strong interest in what’s going on elsewhere.

Odhinn

batman75 wrote: »

Just read in the Times of Israel about a Palestinian man who is mildly autistic who was shot 7 times in Jerusalem. Apparently police thought he was armed and ignored requests to halt. He fled a building where he was tracked down and gunned down. Apparently he didn't understand the requests and was en route to a centre for adults with learning disabilities

.......................

This needs a bit of clarity, if ye don't mind - They shot at him and injured him. He ran inside a garage and collapsed on the floor. They found him, and despite his teacher begging them not to for a period of a few minutes, they put two or three rounds in him to finish him off.

Eyad Hallaq was shot to death in a roofless garbage room. According to the testimony of his caregiver, who was by his side and tried to protect him, he was executed.


For long minutes she stood next to him and pleaded for his life, trying to explain to the police officers, in Hebrew and in Arabic, that he suffered from a disability. They shot him three times from close range with a rifle, directly into the center of his body, as he lay on his back, wounded and terrified, on the floor of the room.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-he-s-disabled-the-aide-yelled-i-m-with-her-eyad-cried-the-cop-still-shot-him-1.8896746

Flickerfusion

Horrible incident and very strong echos of the kind of policing issues in the US or in the days of paramilitary policing here before the foundation of the state.

When you’ve paramilitary policy with absolute power and no real checks on it and then you’ve an ethnically divided society, killings like these seem to become a feature of behaviour.

The only solution to this is normalisation of society and demilitarisation, but how that’s going to happen I don’t know as there seem to be no political will (or at least none with influence) to step back from it. It’s a desperately sad mess.

One eyed Jack

KiKi III wrote: »

Well, in most cases the reaction will depend on whether they are held accountable for the mistake.

Should you be able to say “I’m sorry, I made a terrible mistake” and that’s considered good enough for taking someone’s life?

I wouldn’t see it as “good enough for taking someone’s life” though. I’d see it as a tragic accident. I wouldn’t assume any officer starts their day intending to kill innocent people.

KiKi III

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I wouldn’t see it as “good enough for taking someone’s life” though. I’d see it as a tragic accident. I wouldn’t assume any officer starts their day intending to kill innocent people.

Right, but whether that officer intended to go to work and kill a kid, he did.

Impact trumps intention.

If I knocked you over in my car and left you paralyzed, would it matter to you that I didn’t set out that day to do that to you?

When you do something awful, you should face consequences.

That officer should have been sacked immediately and possibly faced charges. His family should have been given some compensation.

It’s like Obama and Spider-Man say, with great power comes great responsibility.

One eyed Jack

KiKi III wrote: »

Right, but whether that officer intended to go to work and kill a kid, he did.

Impact trumps intention.

If I knocked you over in my car and left you paralyzed, would it matter to you that I didn’t set out that day to do that to you?

When you do something awful, you should face consequences.

That officer should have been sacked immediately and possibly faced charges. His family should have been given some compensation.

It’s like Obama and Spider-Man say, with great power comes great responsibility.

Not in law it doesn’t. That’s one of the reasons why people are presumed innocent until proven guilty of any wrongdoing in a Court of Law. It’s why everyone has the right to due process and as for quoting either Obama or Spider-Man, I’d sooner go with William Blackstone, whose ratio is one of the fundamental principles of Common Law -


It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.


Blackstone’s Ratio


No civilised society abandons justice in order to exact revenge.

Odhinn

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I wouldn’t see it as “good enough for taking someone’s life” though. I’d see it as a tragic accident. I wouldn’t assume any officer starts their day intending to kill innocent people.

"accident" is shooting the guy in the leg. Hunting him down and finishing him off with his teacher pleading for his life was no "accident".

antgal23

Odhinn wrote: »

"accident" is shooting the guy in the leg. Hunting him down and finishing him off with his teacher pleading for his life was no "accident".

He was executed at point blank in the back

It must have been bad - Netanyahu even condemned it in public

US presidents are afraid of Mossad and Israel so don't expect any change in that relationship soon

One eyed Jack

Odhinn wrote: »

"accident" is shooting the guy in the leg. Hunting him down and finishing him off with his teacher pleading for his life was no "accident".

You’ll have to forgive me that I’d be reluctant to consider the Israeli equivalent of the Guardian newspaper an unbiased and credible source.

The principle of innocent until proven guilty of any wrongdoing still stands. To pre-empt any replies along the lines of “it’s a pity the officer didn’t think of that”, well yes, it is. That’s every reason why we shouldn’t do the same thing.

Odhinn

antgal23 wrote: »

He was executed at point blank in the back

It must have been bad - Netanyahu even condemned it in public

It would be rare for an incident like this to have serious consequences for those responsible. Far worse has gone on, unfortunately.

Odhinn

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’ll have to forgive me that I’d be reluctant to consider the Israeli equivalent of the Guardian newspaper an unbiased and credible source.

..............

Handy, that. Try these,. You might also consider the multiple other times the Israeli state has killed Palestinians with abandon.



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52956656


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/iyad-halak-israel-police-killing-palestinian-man-with-autism-draws-george-floyd-comparisons/


https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-06-04/killing-of-palestinian-man-with-autism-draws-floyd-parallel

One eyed Jack

Odhinn wrote: »

Handy, that. Try these,. You might also consider the multiple other times the Israeli state has killed Palestinians with abandon.



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52956656


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/iyad-halak-israel-police-killing-palestinian-man-with-autism-draws-george-floyd-comparisons/


https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-06-04/killing-of-palestinian-man-with-autism-draws-floyd-parallel

Well no, it’s not handy, it’s just a fact, and surely you can understand that if I wouldn’t assume guilt on the part of one officer, providing examples of circumstances where other officers have killed is not evidence that this particular officer in this particular case is guilty of any wrongdoing?

That’s called guilt by association. Not something I would encourage anyone to partake in as it fosters a mob mentality which leads to mob justice. That’s not justice, it’s simply retaliation. What possible good can ever come of that?

KiKi III

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Not in law it doesn’t. That’s one of the reasons why people are presumed innocent until proven guilty of any wrongdoing in a Court of Law. It’s why everyone has the right to due process and as for quoting either Obama or Spider-Man, I’d sooner go with William Blackstone, whose ratio is one of the fundamental principles of Common Law -


It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.


Blackstone’s Ratio


No civilised society abandons justice in order to exact revenge.

What are you on about?

There’s no question over whether the officer shot the kid. He’s entitled to due process and the family are entitled to accountability.

If he didn’t intend to kill the kid (which hasn’t been proven) that would be the difference between murder and manslaughter but there’s no circumstance where the only consequence this guy has to face is feeling bad about it.

One eyed Jack

KiKi III wrote: »

What are you on about?

There’s no question over whether the officer shot the kid. He’s entitled to due process and the family are entitled to accountability.

If he didn’t intend to kill the kid (which hasn’t been proven) that would be the difference between murder and manslaughter but there’s no circumstance where the only consequence this guy has to face is feeling bad about it.

This is why the presumption of innocence exists, because it’s not up to the officer to prove anything. It’s up to the prosecution to make their case depending upon whether the officer is charged with committing an offence in the first place. If it is determined that he has no case to answer for, then the only consequence should be that he feels remorse for his actions. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.

I have no doubt the officer will be held accountable for his actions, by his superior officers, not by the public who aren’t in any position to make that determination as to the consequences the officer should face for any action taken in the course of his duties.

Odhinn

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This is why the presumption of innocence exists, because it’s not up to the officer to prove anything. It’s up to the prosecution to make their case depending upon whether the officer is charged with committing an offence in the first place. If it is determined that he has no case to answer for, then the only consequence should be that he feels remorse for his actions. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.

I have no doubt the officer will be held accountable for his actions, by his superior officers, not by the public who aren’t in any position to make that determination as to the consequences the officer should face for any action taken in the course of his duties.

Do ye now......
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

That’s called guilt by association

Whathappens where the party - an occupying force - in question has records of brutality towards the palestinians going back decades, many of those acts much worse than this.

Odhinn

Some of the stats here give a notion as to how much we might hope to see justice served



https://www.yesh-din.org/en/tag/idf-soldiers/

KiKi III

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This is why the presumption of innocence exists, because it’s not up to the officer to prove anything. It’s up to the prosecution to make their case depending upon whether the officer is charged with committing an offence in the first place. If it is determined that he has no case to answer for, then the only consequence should be that he feels remorse for his actions. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.

I have no doubt the officer will be held accountable for his actions, by his superior officers, not by the public who aren’t in any position to make that determination as to the consequences the officer should face for any action taken in the course of his duties.

He absolutely has a case to answer and in a functional democracy there is no way the police could shoot a small child without facing serious consequences. Unfortunately justice is far from guaranteed when it’s an Israeli officer and a Palestinian kid.

Your take “If the IDF says there’s no case to answer there’s no case to answer” is naive at best.

ILoveYourVibes

donvito99 wrote: »

What business has an Irish person reading the times of Israel?

If you are interested in the Israel /Palestine thing its required reading actually.

And in response to the OP yes I did. Its awful.

ILoveYourVibes

KiKi III wrote: »

What are you on about?

There’s no question over whether the officer shot the kid. He’s entitled to due process and the family are entitled to accountability.

If he didn’t intend to kill the kid (which hasn’t been proven) that would be the difference between murder and manslaughter but there’s no circumstance where the only consequence this guy has to face is feeling bad about it.

This is true.


I think however people are commenting more on how soldiers be they IDF Egyptian etc seem to have an advantage in the legal system.

Considering he shot 7 times I assume his intent was to be lethal.

ILoveYourVibes

Tell me how wrote: »

Could say the same about those espousing righteousness on these pages as to why All Lives Matter.
They don't give a sh*t about white lives who struggle to buy homes, or who are dealing with homelessness, or are long term unemployed, or have special needs or about the lives of those, now in future, who will be affected by environmental issues.

But when people start standing up for Black people all of a sudden they come out of the woodwork with faux concern.

Greta is still doing her strike, (so much for those who said she'd lose interest when the public gaze was off her) and the climate issue is still there to be dealt with. That'll be something for you and de lads to get worked up about once again.

Sadly no one can be truly educated on all of these things.

You could do a phd on the NI peace process that should tell you a lot.

But some things jump out at us as being truly unfair and wrong.

This incident is one of them.

You might also consider the multiple other times the Israeli state has killed Palestinians with abandon.

Or the number of times Hamas shoots rockets into Israel.

None of these things take place in a vacuum.

However there is a culture of using the most extreme force on BOTH sides ...and in Palestine even against their own people. This needs to stop.

The 'Hard Men' make life harder.

There is no need for disputes to escalate to violence any more in this day and age.

One eyed Jack

KiKi III wrote: »

He absolutely has a case to answer and in a functional democracy there is no way the police could shoot a small child without facing serious consequences. Unfortunately justice is far from guaranteed when it’s an Israeli officer and a Palestinian kid.

Your take “If the IDF says there’s no case to answer there’s no case to answer” is naive at best.

That’s your take on what I said, not mine, and perhaps it would be naive if it wasn’t a commonly held standard in law in all functioning democracies.

The idea that justice is better served by perpetuating division by retaliation and mob justice, is the antithesis of a functioning democracy. The same standards of a functioning democracy are common to most democratic societies as opposed to allowing for trial by public opinion where a person is convicted and sentenced by popular opinion.

KiKi III

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s your take on what I said, not mine, and perhaps it would be naive if it wasn’t a commonly held standard in law in all functioning democracies.

The idea that justice is better served by perpetuating division by retaliation and mob justice, is the antithesis of a functioning democracy. The same standards of a functioning democracy are common to most democratic societies as opposed to allowing for trial by public opinion where a person is convicted and sentenced by popular opinion.

Who’s talking about retaliation?

I’ve said there should be consequences for police killing a little kid for no good reason and I find it weird that you’re twisting that into mob justice. It’s not a hot take.

Small children not being shot at by police is generally considered normal in a democracy.

Odhinn

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s your take on what I said, not mine, and perhaps it would be naive if it wasn’t a commonly held standard in law in all functioning democracies.

The idea that justice is better served by perpetuating division by retaliation and mob justice, is the antithesis of a functioning democracy. The same standards of a functioning democracy are common to most democratic societies as opposed to allowing for trial by public opinion where a person is convicted and sentenced by popular opinion.

Israel isn't a normal democracy, its more akin to Apartheid South Africa.

Odhinn

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

.......................

There is no need for disputes to escalate to violence any more in this day and age.

Really? How can this dispute be ended any other way than violence?:

One eyed Jack

KiKi III wrote: »

Who’s talking about retaliation?

I’ve said there should be consequences for police killing a little kid for no good reason and I find it weird that you’re twisting that into mob justice. It’s not a hot take.

Small children not being shot at by police is generally considered normal in a democracy.

I’m talking about retaliation, as we have seen in the last few years in countries like Israel which Odhinn helpfully provided evidence of. You don’t believe he will be held accountable, but we both agree he should be. We seem to disagree however on whom he should be held accountable to.

If it were indeed a killing for no good reason I would expect that finding as a result of an investigation, rather than assuming ill intent on the part of this particular officer beforehand. That’s why I would suggest this particular circumstances were a tragic accident, the consequences of which the officer will live with for the rest of his days. Until there is something to prove otherwise, I wouldn’t be prepared to assume he is guilty of a criminal offence.

Fuascailteoir

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m talking about retaliation, as we have seen in the last few years in countries like Israel which Odhinn helpfully provided evidence of. You don’t believe he will be held accountable, but we both agree he should be. We seem to disagree however on whom he should be held accountable to.

If it were indeed a killing for no good reason I would expect that finding as a result of an investigation, rather than assuming ill intent on the part of this particular officer beforehand. That’s why I would suggest this particular circumstances were a tragic accident, the consequences of which the officer will live with for the rest of his days. Until there is something to prove otherwise, I wouldn’t be prepared to assume he is guilty of a criminal offence.

An accident might occur if his finger squeezed the trigger and resulted in an accidental discharge. Hunting someone down and executing them at point blank range doesn't really fall into that category