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Autistic man gunned down in Jerusalem

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    A naive take on it, to be perfectly honest. I could literally show dozens of cases where theres been palestinian life ended, with consequences at all. We're not dealing with a normal society here, and there seems to be no sign of a change coming anytime soon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 597 ✭✭✭batman75


    Odhinn wrote: »
    A naive take on it, to be perfectly honest. I could literally show dozens of cases where theres been palestinian life ended, with consequences at all. We're not dealing with a normal society here, and there seems to be no sign of a change coming anytime soon.

    I wonder when you ponder the backdrop to the creation of the state of Israel did no one consider the regional consequences? It seemed madness that someone though it was a good idea to set up a jewish nation surrounded by Arabs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,559 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    batman75 wrote: »
    I wonder when you ponder the backdrop to the creation of the state of Israel did no one consider the regional consequences?

    about as much as they thought of consequences when drawing the borders of any other country in the Middle East. not a jot


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭utyh2ikcq9z76b


    batman75 wrote: »
    I wonder when you ponder the backdrop to the creation of the state of Israel did no one consider the regional consequences? It seemed madness that someone though it was a good idea to set up a jewish nation surrounded by Arabs.

    On land already populated by Arabs


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    batman75 wrote: »
    I wonder when you ponder the backdrop to the creation of the state of Israel did no one consider the regional consequences? It seemed madness that someone though it was a good idea to set up a jewish nation surrounded by Arabs.


    About the same time and care they gave to the seperation of India and Pakistan - SFA. Any hope of a normal state of Israel depends on them getting out of the West Bank, Arab East Jerusalem etc.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭utyh2ikcq9z76b


    I’m talking about retaliation, as we have seen in the last few years in countries like Israel which Odhinn helpfully provided evidence of. You don’t believe he will be held accountable, but we both agree he should be. We seem to disagree however on whom he should be held accountable to.

    If it were indeed a killing for no good reason I would expect that finding as a result of an investigation, rather than assuming ill intent on the part of this particular officer beforehand. That’s why I would suggest this particular circumstances were a tragic accident, the consequences of which the officer will live with for the rest of his days. Until there is something to prove otherwise, I wouldn’t be prepared to assume he is guilty of a criminal offence.

    Would you have assumed the same if a white police officer shot a black man dead in apartheid South Africa? You wouldn't have been prepared to assume he is guilty?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,938 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Odhinn wrote: »
    A naive take on it, to be perfectly honest. I could literally show dozens of cases where theres been palestinian life ended, with consequences at all. We're not dealing with a normal society here, and there seems to be no sign of a change coming anytime soon.


    It’s true, we’re not dealing with a normal society, we’re dealing with a society where neither side of the conflict is averse to using children to inflict violence and further their own aims and attempt to gain sympathy for their cause from the International community in which both sides aim to portray themselves as the victim of the others oppression.

    I’ve no doubt you could show dozens of examples where Palestinians have been killed, and I have no doubt too if you really wanted to, you could show dozens of examples where Israelis have been killed. My point is that it’s true, there won’t be any signs of a change coming soon while both sides are convinced that their tactics are working to engender sympathy and support for their cause from the International community which they hope will bring international pressure on one side or the other to coerce then into submission.


    This particular case shows yet another example of the outcomes which can happen when children are used as weapons of war by both sides -


    According to the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers "2004 Global Report on the Use of Child Soldiers", there were at least nine documented suicide attacks involving Palestinian minors between October 2000 and March 2004.

    In 2004, the Guardian reported that the Israeli military "accused a faction of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement of using an 11-year-old boy as an unwitting human bomb after the child was discovered carrying explosive through an army checkpoint in Nablus. In 2009, a 14-year-old was captured by Israeli soldiers and told of being given $23 and a suicide bomber's vest. His family said he was gullible and easily manipulated.

    Shafiq Masalha, a clinical psychologist who teaches at Tel Aviv University, wrote in 2004 that 15 percent of Palestinian children dreamt of becoming suicide bombers. According to Eyad Sarraj, Palestinian psychiatrist and director of the Gaza Community Mental Health Program, a survey by his program found that 36 percent of Palestinians over 12 aspired to die "a martyr's death" fighting Israel.

    Former UN Under-Secretary General Olara Otunnu stated in 2003: "We have witnessed both ends of these acts: children have been used as suicide bombers and children have been killed by suicide bombings. I call on the Palestinian authorities to do everything within their powers to stop all participation by children in this conflict."



    Children in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict


    Thinking of children as suicide bombers doesn’t quite fit the narrative of an autistic child apparently being hunted down and killed for no good reason though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭utyh2ikcq9z76b


    Let's not forget Israel's numerous war crimes
    “During 50 days of attacks, Israeli forces wreaked massive death and destruction on the Gaza Strip, killing close to 1,500 civilians, more than 500 of whom were children,”

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/07/israel-opt-two-years-on-still-no-justice-for-war-crimes-victims/

    People who are concerned about the Palestinian issue need to read this and act to put pressure on the forming government

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=3225792537484129&id=159323080797772


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    ..................


    This particular case shows yet another example of the outcomes which can happen when children are used as weapons of war by both sides -


    ,................




    Theres absolutely no evidence that this poor lad was being used as a "weapon of war".


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    I’m talking about retaliation, as we have seen in the last few years in countries like Israel which Odhinn helpfully provided evidence of. You don’t believe he will be held accountable, but we both agree he should be. We seem to disagree however on whom he should be held accountable to.

    If it were indeed a killing for no good reason I would expect that finding as a result of an investigation, rather than assuming ill intent on the part of this particular officer beforehand. That’s why I would suggest this particular circumstances were a tragic accident, the consequences of which the officer will live with for the rest of his days. Until there is something to prove otherwise, I wouldn’t be prepared to assume he is guilty of a criminal offence.

    He killed the kid. That much is not in doubt. With seven bullets. If you need a court to tell you whether there was anything wrong with that, you have a strange moral code.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,938 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Theres absolutely no evidence that this poor lad was being used as a "weapon of war".


    We know that now. However the officer at the time had to make a judgment call based upon the historic evidence that he was aware of in the circumstances in which he found himself. It was unfortunate for the child in this case that he wasn’t actually a suicide bomber.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,938 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    KiKi III wrote: »
    He killed the kid. That much is not in doubt. With seven bullets. If you need a court to tell you whether there was anything wrong with that, you have a strange moral code.


    The point isn’t whether or not there was anything wrong with it in hindsight. Of course there was, a lot wrong with the killing of an innocent civilian. The point is whether the killing was justified at the time. That’s something which can only be decided afterwards. It’s not exactly a foreign concept. It’s called justifiable homicide.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    The point isn’t whether or not there was anything wrong with it in hindsight. Of course there was, a lot wrong with the killing of an innocent civilian. The point is whether the killing was justified at the time. That’s something which can only be decided afterwards. It’s not exactly a foreign concept. It’s called justifiable homicide.

    Yeah, your moral code is screw-y.

    I hope you don’t have a job where you have very much power over people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭utyh2ikcq9z76b


    KiKi III wrote: »
    He killed the kid. That much is not in doubt. With seven bullets. If you need a court to tell you whether there was anything wrong with that, you have a strange moral code.

    You have to realize that Israel has an army of digital trolls
    Israel: Israeli troll armies include the Hasbara, Hasbara Fellowships and the Jewish Internet Defense Force, exclusively known for its information spreading pro-Israeli news and dismissing any reports deemed to be against Israel, frequently used by Likud leadership to promote their opinions and point of view and spreading anti-Palestinian and anti-Iranian news.

    Ireland is at the forefront as we have voted for mainly pro Palestinian politicians who are trying to enact the Occupied Territories Bill which could have a domino effect across Europe. These Hasbara trolls are very active on social media here, better to not engage with them. They try to keep the discussion going round in circles!

    https://electronicintifada.net/content/inside-israels-million-dollar-troll-army/27566

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupied_Territories_Bill

    https://www.ipsc.ie/action-item/tell-fine-gael-its-time-to-change-tack-on-the-occupied-territories-bill


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    We know that now. However the officer at the time had to make a judgment call based upon the historic evidence that he was aware of in the circumstances in which he found himself. It was unfortunate for the child in this case that he wasn’t actually a suicide bomber.




    There hasn't been a suicide bombing in some years. The truth is that they fired on an unarmed lad, and when they had him before them - injured , on the ground -and distressed - with no weapon extant, they shot him down to finish him off.


  • Registered Users Posts: 236 ✭✭THE_SHEEP


    No evidence of anything needed lads . Let's all get out on the march and wreck the place . Any excuses needed these days . Notify the " woke brigade " quickly .

    ( P.s Anybody need a fifty inch TV , saw one earlier in a local shop window ).


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,938 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Yeah, your moral code is screw-y.

    I hope you don’t have a job where you have very much power over people.


    I dunno Kiki, I’m just grateful for the fact I don’t live in a country where children are inspired to become suicide bombers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    I dunno Kiki, I’m just grateful for the fact I don’t live in a country where children are inspired to become suicide bombers.




    Then support the BDS movement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,938 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Odhinn wrote: »
    There hasn't been a suicide bombing in some years. The truth is that they fired on an unarmed lad, and when they had him before them - injured , on the ground -and distressed - with no weapon extant, they shot him down to finish him off.


    I don’t think anyone could argue with the fact that in hindsight, from the comfort of our distanced perspective outside of the reality of growing up in that society, that those circumstances influenced the officers decision making process in that moment.

    You can choose to paint the truth whatever way you like really after that, as you have done in arguing as though only one side of the conflict are at fault when the reality is that the adults involved on both sides are as bad as each other, and will continue to be as bad as each other while raising the next generation of children as prejudiced as previous generations. That’s exactly why things won’t change any time soon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    I don’t think anyone could argue with the fact that in hindsight, from the comfort of our distanced perspective outside of the reality of growing up in that society, that those circumstances influenced the officers decision making process in that moment.

    You can choose to paint the truth whatever way you like really after that, as you have done in arguing as though only one side of the conflict are at fault when the reality is that the adults involved on both sides are as bad as each other, and will continue to be as bad as each other while raising the next generation of children as prejudiced as previous generations. That’s exactly why things won’t change any time soon.

    'Good people on all sides'
    'There are just some bad apple cops'

    All sentiments echoed by people eager to maintain the status quo.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,938 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Then support the BDS movement.


    Doesn’t appeal to me in the slightest Odhinn tbh, no nuance or appreciation of human diversity in those sort of “movements” tbh, which are ironically rigid and only serve to promote conflict as opposed to promoting understanding and forgiveness between people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,938 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    'Good people on all sides'
    'There are just some bad apple cops'

    All sentiments echoed by people eager to maintain the status quo.


    Almost as if on cue, a prime candidate to be swept up in a righteous movement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Doesn’t appeal to me in the slightest Odhinn tbh, no nuance or appreciation of human diversity in those sort of “movements” tbh, which are ironically rigid and only serve to promote conflict as opposed to promoting understanding and forgiveness between people.




    Naive nonsense. One side - the aggressor - is engaged in ethnic cleansing and colonisation in a manner condemned by International law. The only reason Israel hasn't been brought to brook is the US veto at the UNSC.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Almost as if on cue, a prime candidate to be swept up in a righteous movement.

    Rather a righteous movement than an ill-informed rant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,938 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Naive nonsense. One side - the aggressor - is engaged in ethnic cleansing and colonisation in a manner condemned by International law. The only reason Israel hasn't been brought to brook is the US veto at the UNSC.


    Unsurprisingly, anyone who doesn’t share your opinions are naive and all the rest of it. It wouldn’t be difficult to find your opposite equivalent on the other side of the conflict who would want me to believe the very same thing, only from their perspective, and still want me to believe they too were telling the truth. I’d have no doubt they believe they’re telling the truth, and both sides have themselves convinced that theirs is the objective and righteous perspective. As long as both sides have themselves convinced they’re right, and they’re the oppressed victims fighting against tyranny, there won’t be any resolution forthcoming.

    The killing of an innocent man or calling for punishing the man who killed him isn’t going to do anything to convince either side they might just be underestimating the human cost of a pyrrhic victory.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,938 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Rather a righteous movement than an ill-informed rant.


    That retort never gets old, does it?


    T’would remind anyone familiar with it of these two lads -


    latest?cb=20081215234656&path-prefix=en


    In case you’re not familiar with it -


    Let That Be Your Last Battlefield


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭utyh2ikcq9z76b


    Unsurprisingly, anyone who doesn’t share your opinions are naive and all the rest of it. It wouldn’t be difficult to find your opposite equivalent on the other side of the conflict who would want me to believe the very same thing, only from their perspective, and still want me to believe they too were telling the truth. I’d have no doubt they believe they’re telling the truth, and both sides have themselves convinced that theirs is the objective and righteous perspective. As long as both sides have themselves convinced they’re right, and they’re the oppressed victims fighting against tyranny, there won’t be any resolution forthcoming.

    The killing of an innocent man or calling for punishing the man who killed him isn’t going to do anything to convince either side they might just be underestimating the human cost of a pyrrhic victory.

    No doubt we had whites in apartheid Africa who would want you to see it from their perspective, but they would have been wrong as apartheid Israel is now. The Irish electorate has voted for pro Palestinian parties, we see through the propaganda. Be gone Hasbara troll


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,938 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    No doubt we had whites in apartheid Africa who would want you to see it from their perspective, but they would have been wrong as apartheid Israel is now. The Irish electorate has voted for pro Palestinian parties, we see through the propaganda. Be gone Hasbara troll


    Of course you do. The party which represents anything which they imagine will get them elected, them and their merry band of freedom fighters funded by selling fairy tales of freedom to the Irish diaspora in the US? Palestine had to feature in their manifesto somewhere I suppose, but far more likely it was the idea of more free money appealed to their core voting demographic here in Irish society.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    This isn’t even an Israel v Palestine issue.

    Anyone on either side of the political agenda should be horrified.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭utyh2ikcq9z76b


    KiKi III wrote: »
    This isn’t even an Israel v Palestine issue.

    Anyone on either side of the political agenda should be horrified.

    This is only one part in an ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestine, to look at it without that context is naive.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/war-crime-inquiry-into-2014-israel-palestinian-conflict-grows-more-likely-1.4242982


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