Builder's profit on incomplete project

Quacks75

Hi,

Looking for advice on how to cost outstanding tasks on a job that builder is not finishing.

Post-lockdown, contractor told me he won't be finishing the job as he has got a bigger local job instead - not much left to do, just skimming throughout and frames/doors. I wasn't surprised as he had stopped turning up on site pre-lockdown and it's a small job.

If I get quotes in for outstanding work, does the full cost come off his final payment, or is it only a portion that is taken off - foreman mentioned that contractor is still entitled to builder's profit even on items not completed.

Advice would be great. Thanks.

mickdw

Have you signed a contract with builder 1 re doing the complete works?

Quacks75

Verbal contract only - small job. Have a BOQ and all has been completed satisfactorily except for skimming and doors/frames.

Quacks75

Should add that he has childcare issues due to Covid as his partner's health is compromised. Happy to finish out the job with my contacts - just want to cost it accurately so that I'm not out of pocket, and builder's profit due on jobs that are not completed is confusing me.

djan

Having been in a similair situation. We settled it by deducting the cost of the unfinished work (based on an average of 3 quotes) from the payment due. Do not pay for work that was not carried out!

Victor

Quacks75 wrote: »

If I get quotes in for outstanding work, does the full cost come off his final payment, or is it only a portion that is taken off - foreman mentioned that contractor is still entitled to builder's profit even on items not completed.

If the client decided to not do certain works that resulted in the final account being less than the contract amount, then the contractor would normally be entitled to their profit.

Contractor is not entitled to profit on work the contractor decided not to do.

Get prices to do the work / get the work done and pay the builder the contract amount (with any another adjustments, less the amount you have to pay for the outstanding work. The cost of this piecemeal work is likely to be more expensive than what the contractor has priced it at.

Quacks75

Victor wrote: »

If the client decided to not do certain works that resulted in the final account being less than the contract amount, then the contractor would normally be entitled to their profit.

Contractor is not entitled to profit on work the contractor decided not to do.

Get prices to do the work / get the work done and pay the builder the contract amount (with any another adjustments, less the amount you have to pay for the outstanding work. The cost of this piecemeal work is likely to be more expensive than what the contractor has priced it at.

Thank you. This is what I thought should be the case. First quote organised for tomorrow morning. Thanks all.

Quacks75

djan wrote: »

Having been in a similair situation. We settled it by deducting the cost of the unfinished work (based on an average of 3 quotes) from the payment due. Do not pay for work that was not carried out!

Thanks - good advice!! On the case with first quote tomorrow.

mickdw

From initial post it sounded like he was just taking the piss.
Its a different situation if covid got in the way so should be settled as sensibly as possible.
As suggested, get quotes for the work not completed to be completed and then sit down with builder 1 to agree a figure.

Quacks75

Well now, how things can change in 12 hours. Builder has submitted extras to the tune of 10% of the budget - some work requested by me, some not at all and hugely inflated.

In a follow-up phonecall he has said - pay me the agreed contract and I'll drop the extras and you can finish the job yourself. When I said this would leave me seriously out of pocket re. finishing the skimming/doors/frames and that the extras were not agreed and needed to be cleared with the architect, he got fairly unpleasant. I kept my cool which only seemed to make him more angry. I ended the phonecall swiftly when he wouldn't stop shouting.

When I relayed this to the architect, he asked me if I wanted to try to persuade the builder to finish or finish the job myself. On foot of the builder's phonecall, I said I assumed that he has no interest in finishing the job so let's just wind it up with him and I'll finish.

The architect says that because I said I'll finish, the builder is entitled to builder's profit on the unfinished work - architect has sent through finishing costs of €1000 to skim a 70sqm house and install 7 x doors/frames/locks etc. Nuts.

Really don't want this to get any more unpleasant and need to nip this all in the bud pronto. Any and all advice appreciated.

salmocab

The builder is taking the hit and miss, he doesn't want to finish the job. Get it finished deduct what you pay to get it finished from the agreed price add the agreed extras if they are reasonable, offer him the amount you arrive at. Then it's up to him but he didn't finish the job which he agreed to do. I'd have a good chat with that architect too by the way, it's the builder letting you down I wouldn't get caught up in the architect saying what the builders entitled to.

the_pen_turner

This is very weird. Why wouldn't the builder just sub out the skimming and 2nd fix carpentry if that's all is left.


Not sure why you think 1000 to skim a large room and hang loads of doors is expensive.

mickdw

Well if this is how it stands, it quite interesting.
The architect is i presume working for you so ask him to explain why he wants you to pay builder profit on works the builder has refused to carry out. Saying you dont want him to finish it now is not the same as having reduced the agreed works yourself.
Pay no money to the builder until you get your own quotes. Just tell him the figures and tell him what you are going to pay him. You will have to be reasonable re the extras. Be careful here as it sounds like your architect will have instructed builder on your behalf re extras.

salmocab

the_pen_turner wrote: »

This is very weird. Why wouldn't the builder just sub out the skimming and 2nd fix carpentry if that's all is left.


Not sure why you think 1000 to skim a large room and hang loads of doors is expensive.

I think the 1000 is what the architect said it would cost as in take 1000 off the price, which the OP thinks isn't enough to finish the job. Could be wrong though

mickdw

the_pen_turner wrote: »

This is very weird. Why wouldn't the builder just sub out the skimming and 2nd fix carpentry if that's all is left.

Cause he wants all the money and not do it at all.
There is also the outside chance that he has made a complete balls of the work so far.

Bass Reeves

What were the extra's that were agreed and was a price agreed for them. I am extremely wary of extra's on a project and alway insist on a price b fire they go ahead. No builder will throw in as much as an extra block and not get paid for it. What were the non agreed extra's. Architect may have worked with builder previously and not want to sour his relationship with him.

Of project is incomplete and builder is unwilling to complete you could consider getting a QA to cost the extra's agreed and the remaining work. You can the subtract the costs of the remaining work and QA fees and add the cost of the agreed extra's a d pay him that. If the architect is charging you anything extra builder is responsible for that as well.

Juwwi

This is how I would play it ,, tell the builder you will settle up after you find out exactly what it's going to cost you to finish the job hiring contractors yourself , deduct the difference and from the final bill and pay balance .

As regards the extras if you asked for some without an agreed price that makes it awkward , also what were the extras that you didn't agree to ?

If you feel he is taking the piss inflating the extra you can also inflate the figure that you are going to claim it's costing to finish the job to offset some of the extras .

I'd be weary of the architect , he should be on your side your paying him .

Juwwi

Was the relationship strained with the builder before covid-19 happened or was everything going ok ?

Edit not that it should would make any difference to the outcome of this situation ,,I agree with the person who said it's all very sorry ,builder should just hire a plasterer and carpenter himself ,

Dont be put under any pressure to hand over money unless your 100% happy with it tho

salmocab

Juwwi wrote: »

This is how I would play it ,, tell the builder you will settle up after you find out exactly what it's going to cost you to finish the job hiring contractors yourself , deduct the difference and from the final bill and pay balance .

As regards the extras if you asked for some without an agreed price that makes it awkward , also what were the extras that you didn't agree to ?

If you feel he is taking the piss inflating the extra you can also inflate the figure that you are going to claim it's costing to finish the job to offset some of the extras .

I'd be weary of the architect , he should be on your side your paying him .

I wouldn't settle with the builder when I find out how much it's going to cost to finish I'd be waiting until its finished and the new crowd are paid. Anything that comes up at that stage that needs fixing can also be deducted.

Quacks75

salmocab wrote: »

The builder is taking the hit and miss, he doesn't want to finish the job. Get it finished deduct what you pay to get it finished from the agreed price add the agreed extras if they are reasonable, offer him the amount you arrive at. Then it's up to him but he didn't finish the job which he agreed to do. I'd have a good chat with that architect too by the way, it's the builder letting you down I wouldn't get caught up in the architect saying what the builders entitled to.

Yep, very surprised that the architect is not being more proactive for his client - me! He's been hands-off on this project as I've managed a lot of it myself so he probably just wants it settled asap. Will have a calm word to point out that I am his client, not the builder.

Quacks75

the_pen_turner wrote: »

This is very weird. Why wouldn't the builder just sub out the skimming and 2nd fix carpentry if that's all is left.


Not sure why you think 1000 to skim a large room and hang loads of doors is expensive.

He doesn't have any contacts in Dublin - he's based in Gorey. It's €1000 to tape and skim a 70sqm house - 3 bedrooms, bathrooms, kitchen, living/dining room, 2 staircases and landing - all walls and ceilings. Plus 7 doors/frames/locks.

Quacks75

mickdw wrote: »

Well if this is how it stands, it quite interesting.
The architect is i presume working for you so ask him to explain why he wants you to pay builder profit on works the builder has refused to carry out. Saying you dont want him to finish it now is not the same as having reduced the agreed works yourself.
Pay no money to the builder until you get your own quotes. Just tell him the figures and tell him what you are going to pay him. You will have to be reasonable re the extras. Be careful here as it sounds like your architect will have instructed builder on your behalf re extras.

Thanks Mick. Got different builder and carpenter (recommended by close friend) to survey just now - plasterboard work is poor and even I can see where levels don't match and will need remedial work. Perfectly happy to negotiate on extras as I had asked for some of them.

I'm easy-going so I feel the architect thinks I'll just pay up to get the project closed off, but I'm not a soft touch :rolleyes:

robmcg

I don't think theres any chance of getting all that work done for a £1000

Bass Reeves

QA to cost

Quacks75

salmocab wrote: »

I think the 1000 is what the architect said it would cost as in take 1000 off the price, which the OP thinks isn't enough to finish the job. Could be wrong though

Spot on. Architect has suggested €1000 to tape and skim 70sqm house, 3 bedrooms, 3 bathrooms, 2 staircases, landing, kitchen, living/dining room walls and ceilings throughout, AND install 7 doors/frames/locks. Even my remedial maths can't make that add up!

Quacks75

Juwwi wrote: »

This is how I would play it ,, tell the builder you will settle up after you find out exactly what it's going to cost you to finish the job hiring contractors yourself , deduct the difference and from the final bill and pay balance .

As regards the extras if you asked for some without an agreed price that makes it awkward , also what were the extras that you didn't agree to ?

If you feel he is taking the piss inflating the extra you can also inflate the figure that you are going to claim it's costing to finish the job to offset some of the extras .

I'd be weary of the architect , he should be on your side your paying him .

Good advice - I've organised first contractors quote for today, will get 2 more so that all options are covered. I asked for costs for extras repeatedly, over and over, broken record style. He kept promising them but only lumped them all together once the job stalled pre-lockdown.

I'll make sure I'm covered on quotes to finish the job properly. Really surprised by the architect as he's never worked with this builder before but he has done work for me and is currently working on a project for a client of mine. A quite word is needed...

Quacks75

Bass Reeves wrote: »

What were the extra's that were agreed and was a price agreed for them. I am extremely wary of extra's on a project and alway insist on a price b fire they go ahead. No builder will throw in as much as an extra block and not get paid for it. What were the non agreed extra's. Architect may have worked with builder previously and not want to sour his relationship with him.

Of project is incomplete and builder is unwilling to complete you could consider getting a QA to cost the extra's agreed and the remaining work. You can the subtract the costs of the remaining work and QA fees and add the cost of the agreed extra's a d pay him that. If the architect is charging you anything extra builder is responsible for that as well.

Architect has charged us both to sort this out - split 50/50. He's never worked with the builder before, but is working on a project for a client of mine on my recommendation. Will have a word with him...

Good advice re. QA - will organise for them to survey. Their estimate should be impartial and a good middle ground between two contractors' quotes. One contractor organised for today.

Bonzo Delaney

robmcg wrote: »

I don't think theres any chance of getting all that work done for a £1000

Easily 3 times that

who what when

robmcg wrote: »

I don't think theres any chance of getting all that work done for a £1000

When i first read that i just assumed the OP accidentally left out an extra 0. What kind of professional would assume €1000 for that amount of work!

the_syco

Quacks75 wrote: »

Should add that he has childcare issues due to Covid as his partner's health is compromised.

Sorry for being cold, but how is this your issue?

Quacks75 wrote: »

In a follow-up phonecall he has said - pay me the agreed contract and I'll drop the extras and you can finish the job yourself.

What? Pay them so they won't finish it; as opposed to what, exactly? Not paying them so you have to finish it anyway?

Tefral

Op can you post a copy of the BOQ or even send it to me privately. if there is identifiable information Im a QS so can have a look.

Normally its very simple. Take off all the items on the BOQ, including a portion of the Prelims on the work he hasnt done and tell him he has determined his contract.

Im hoping you have a fully quantified BOQ so this is an easy matter.

He is not entitled to profit on works that he has determined he has not completed. Different story if you were the one taking it off him.