PBP want to tear down stuff in Galway

Galwayguy35

TheCitizen wrote: »

Good point. I don’t think it’s unreasonable that PBP are raising this issue. It appears that because it’s coming from them that there’s a lot of opposition to the notion of discussing removing or relocating monuments to people who held views or engaged in practices that nowadays are completely unacceptable.

There’s a legitimate debate to be had around this issue.

Not there isn't, Ireland never brought over slaves from Africa or invaded countries and plundered all the natural resources in those countries.

Johnny_BravoIII

These people are ideologues. Their first instinct is to tear down symbols that disagree with their ideology.

It's why the nazis burned books, its why ISIS desecrate religious monuments.

Arghus

Only on boards do I see PBP compared with Nazis and ISIS.

You guys do like to exaggerate.

Johnny_BravoIII

Arghus wrote: »

Only on boards do I see PBP compared with Nazis and ISIS.

You guys do like to exaggerate.

I'm not comparing the politics.
Where does the instinct to tear down historical symbolism come from?

This 'book burning' instinct is coming from a dangerous place. If you can't see that your thinking has become blinkered.

It's not possible to argue rationally with an ideologue. They are too trapped within the walls of their own ideology.

Typically they can only see black and white. Either something agrees with their world view (ideology) or it doesn't. Right versus wrong. Wrong must be attacked.

If your reading this and you can't strawman the otherside of the argument, then you are captured by ideology. You have lost the ability to think independently. You are acting from a 1/0, comply/doesn't comply world view.

Can you name one historical context where destruction of historical symbolism has been the just course of action?

Should we burn art we don't agree with or find offensive?

JohnnyFlash

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

I'm not comparing the politics.
Where does the instinct to tear down historical symbolism come from?

This 'book burning' instinct is coming from a dangerous place. If you can't see that your thinking has become blinkered.

It's not possible to argue rationally with an ideologue. They are too trapped within the walls of their own ideology.

A small handful of perpetual students, losers, and beatniks hanging around Galway getting angry on the internet is in no way comparable to the atrocities committed by the Nazis.

Some of them have been told that the Soviet Union was a great place, but that's just stupidity and naivety on their behalf. Harmless sorts.

Arghus

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

I'm not comparing the politics.
Where does the instinct to tear down historical symbolism come from?

This 'book burning' instinct is coming from a dangerous place. If you can't see that your thinking has become blinkered.

My own thinking isn't so blinkered that I think Nazi book burning and the pronouncements of PBP are comparable things.

It's not possible to argue rationally with an ideologue. They are too trapped within the walls of their own ideology.

Typically they can only see black and white. Either something agrees with their world view (ideology) or it doesn't. Right versus wrong. Wrong must be attacked.

To be fair, you seem quite black and white on this issue yourself.

Sheep_shear

Stewball wrote: »

Curious as to whether the people objecting to the removal of the Christopher Columbus memorial - would have any objection to erecting a Che Guevara memorial?
Which nearly happened a few years ago.

Ah yes, bloody hell that thing would have an eyesore at the very least - https://connachttribune.ie/che-statue-on-salthill-prom-sparks-outcry/

TheCitizen

Sheep_shear wrote: »

Ah yes, bloody hell that thing would have an eyesore at the very least - https://connachttribune.ie/che-statue-on-salthill-prom-sparks-outcry/

I like it. When are they going to get around to erecting it.

ExMachina1000

Egyptian protesters want the Pyramids pulled down as they were built by slave labour.

TheCitizen

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Egyptian protesters want the Pyramids pulled down as they were built by slave labour.

haha the shark has been jumped

?Cee?view

TheCitizen wrote: »

It's best to remove them and put them away somewhere like a museum than leave them standing up in public streets and squares like an anachronistic sore thumb. That's what happened with Nelson's Pillar. That one should have been removed long before it was correctly taken out of it.

If you actually believe what you've stated here about Nelson's Pillar, the irony aptly demonstrates why rewriting history to remove monuments on the whim of impetuous failed politicians, isn't the best course of action.

TheCitizen

?Cee?view wrote: »

If you actually believe what you've stated here about Nelson's Pillar, the irony aptly demonstrates why rewriting history to remove monuments on the whim of impetuous failed politicians, isn't the best course of action.

You're going to have to explain yourself here; are you saying that Nelson's Pillar should have remained in situ?

It isn't unusual to remove or relocate monuments and statues, it can happen for various reasons. Nelson's Pillar should have been removed by the state, but there was much hilarity when it got taken out of it later anyway.

?Cee?view

TheCitizen wrote: »

You're going to have to explain yourself here; are you saying that Nelson's Pillar should have remained in situ?

It isn't unusual to remove or relocate monuments and statues, it can happen for various reasons. Nelson's Pillar should have been removed by the state, but there was much hilarity when it got taken out of it later anyway.

I don't have to explain myself. You wrote:

"It's best to remove them and put them away somewhere like a museum than leave them standing up in public streets and squares like an anachronistic sore thumb. That's what happened with Nelson's Pillar."

biko

So who's statue do we put up instead?
Who is without sin?

TheCitizen

?Cee?view wrote: »

I don't have to explain myself. You wrote:

"It's best to remove them and put them away somewhere like a museum than leave them standing up in public streets and squares like an anachronistic sore thumb. That's what happened with Nelson's Pillar."

I'm saying Nelson should have been removed by the state. When the authorities were too slow to act the job of taking Nelson out of it was done by someone else.

Edit; They were calls to remove that statue in Bristol for years. It should have been discussed properly and the City Council perhaps vote on it. The inaction lead to what you saw the other day.

Was good crack though arising from Nelson's removal;

"Oh, poor old Admiral Nelson is no longer in the air.
Toora loora loora loora loo!...."

TheCitizen

biko wrote: »

So who's statue do we put up instead?
Who is without sin?

Are you talking about Columbus here? I think everything should be up for debate, everything.

We need to realign society and debate everything that has lead to the formation of society where racism is pervasive and so woven into the fabric of culture that we don't even recognise it. Obviously different countries have different degrees of racism but all countries have some form of institutionalised racism ingrained in their society.

They've taken Gone with the Wind off streaming sites in the US. John Ridley film director says it's a good idea to remove it temporarily to cause debate around it and around the issue of racism in general.


https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-06-08/hbo-max-racism-gone-with-the-wind-movie

Posters on this thread use the word "woke" like it's a bad thing or as an insult. It's time they woke up. The world is changing and they can either change with it or sit there moaning and whingeing and snowflaking about it.

thecretinhop

TheCitizen wrote: »

Are you talking about Columbus here? I think everything should be up for debate, everything.

We need to realign society and debate everything that has lead to the formation of society where racism is pervasive and so woven into the fabric of culture that we don't even recognise it. Obviously different countries have different degrees of racism but all countries have some form of institutionalised racism ingrained in their society.

They've taken Gone with the Wind off streaming sites in the US. John Ridley film director says it's a good idea to remove it temporarily to cause debate around it and around the issue of racism in general.


https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-06-08/hbo-max-racism-gone-with-the-wind-movie

Posters on this thread use the word "woke" like it's a bad thing or as an insult. It's time they woke up. The world is changing and they can either change with it or sit there moaning and whingeing and snowflaking about it.

The world isn't changing it's been hijacked by liberal radical loons who have rich daddies and nothing else to worry about. A lot of people I talked to who are mostly left wing (I have no problem with moderates) were appalled by the marches here and the looting in US.

TheCitizen

thecretinhop wrote: »

The world isn't changing it's been hijacked by liberal radical loons who have rich daddies and nothing else to worry about. A lot of people I talked to who are mostly left wing (I have no problem with moderates) were appalled by the marches here and the looting in US.

You have all sorts of consequences when upheaval takes place. Looting is people just taking advantage, the marches here (I wasn't on them) shouldn't have happened due to current social restrictions in my view.

However it's far too easy to write it off as "liberal radical loons who have rich daddies" hijacking the world. Killing people cos they are black like that cop did is not acceptable and never was, but with this movement it will not be tolerated any longer.

Was watching 13th on netflix, shocking statistics re the numbers of the black population that end up in jail at some point in their lives. 1 in 3 it was. Also the jail system in the USA privatised so that it's in their interests to fill their jails with criminals and then they work for big corporations for feck all pay. Another form of slave labour. This isn't just about black people.


It applies in this country in different ways. You've got private health insurance that people on this site will argue tooth and nail in favour of (because perhaps they pay for it and don't want to be proven wrong). Private health insurance just causes divisions in the way we construct our health services and provide for the citizens.

We need to rework society to make it tick for all of us and stop creating divisions and pitting one group against another to make some feel better about themselves because others are suffering more than they do. It's the sort of nonsense that has lead to morons like Trump and Johnson getting elected. It's not new, Thatcher made a career for herself by causing division in the UK between the North and South of the UK.

It's time to wake up, to stop repeating history, to stop creating and reinforcing divisions between people that are manmade. Time to get Woke.

emo72

PBP should be concerned about making life better for citizens. They should be trying to improve everyone's quality of life.

Zero hour contracts. High rents. Long commutes. Decent childcare. There's tons of stuff we should all be concentrating on improving.

Statues are way down on my list of priorities. I'm too busy raising a family to be offended by a statue.

biko

I couldn't recall it so googled an image


This is it, and that's a bird on top.

TheCitizen

emo72 wrote: »

PBP should be concerned about making life better for citizens. They should be trying to improve everyone's quality of life.

Zero hour contracts. High rents. Long commutes. Decent childcare. There's tons of stuff we should all be concentrating on improving.

Statues are way down on my list of priorities. I'm too busy raising a family to be offended by a statue.

I think they talk about those issues as well.

inisboffin

Isn't there a nuanced middle ground? A statue of a**hole charging on a steed looking all 'victorious', sometimes with a plaque stating "the great so and so" and lauding their life, is quite different to "So and so was here, or may have been here" with a statue NOT of his image.

Yes, I agree, that some are way better off being removed from public location, but they are historical artefacts, and rewriting history isn't helpful, so documenting or preserving them for record is a different thing.

When it comes to a 'dubious' statue or monument that is not an image, why not amend the plaque, or put a QR code beside it with a factual neutral account of what they did and didn't do. We have a famine monument in many places not to glorify things but to make people aware.

emo72

TheCitizen wrote: »

I think they talk about those issues as well.

Yeah, that's enough to be concentrating on. The statues aren't stopping people going about their business. Tell them to concentrate on things that will make life better for us all.

Unless the statues thing is just a publicity stunt.

Can we have a poll to see if people want statues removed?

TheCitizen

emo72 wrote: »

Yeah, that's enough to be concentrating on. The statues aren't stopping people going about their business. Tell them to concentrate on things that will make life better for us all.

Unless the statues thing is just a publicity stunt.

Can we have a poll to see if people want statues removed?

You want the issue relating to statues ignored by having a poll about it?

Johnny_BravoIII

TheCitizen wrote: »

You have all sorts of consequences when upheaval takes place. Looting is people just taking advantage, the marches here (I wasn't on them) shouldn't have happened due to current social restrictions in my view.

However it's far too easy to write it off as "liberal radical loons who have rich daddies" hijacking the world. Killing people cos they are black like that cop did is not acceptable and never was, but with this movement it will not be tolerated any longer.

Was watching 13th on netflix, shocking statistics re the numbers of the black population that end up in jail at some point in their lives. 1 in 3 it was. Also the jail system in the USA privatised so that it's in their interests to fill their jails with criminals and then they work for big corporations for feck all pay. Another form of slave labour. This isn't just about black people.


It applies in this country in different ways. You've got private health insurance that people on this site will argue tooth and nail in favour of (because perhaps they pay for it and don't want to be proven wrong). Private health insurance just causes divisions in the way we construct our health services and provide for the citizens.

We need to rework society to make it tick for all of us and stop creating divisions and pitting one group against another to make some feel better about themselves because others are suffering more than they do. It's the sort of nonsense that has lead to morons like Trump and Johnson getting elected. It's not new, Thatcher made a career for herself by causing division in the UK between the North and South of the UK.

It's time to wake up, to stop repeating history, to stop creating and reinforcing divisions between people that are manmade. Time to get Woke.

You realise Ireland is a progressive European country which is much different than the US?
- Free healthcare
- Free education - with essentially unlimited access to 3rd level
- Full employment (until recently)
- Business friendly - if you want to start a business, there's free courses and grants better than most any other country on the planet
- 100 years without war
- English speaking
- Cheap flights
- Liberal laws around marriage, abortion etc
- Excellent entertainment sector, nightlife, gig's, theatre
- Easily accessible great outdoors within a short few hours of any major urban environment
- Engaging, sociable, approachable people with a sense of humour
- Secular society which protects the right of people to practice
- Healthy food, clean water

There's lots of things which don't work, like most any place... but explain to me what exactly is it that you are looking to tear-down and re-work?

emo72

TheCitizen wrote: »

You want the issue relating to statues ignored by having a poll about it?

Yeah, go on, put a poll up and see what the support is like for the removal of statues.

Coillte_Bhoy

emo72 wrote: »

PBP should be concerned about making life better for citizens. They should be trying to improve everyone's quality of life.

Zero hour contracts. High rents. Long commutes. Decent childcare. There's tons of stuff we should all be concentrating on improving.

Statues are way down on my list of priorities. I'm too busy raising a family to be offended by a statue.

Ah come on now, whatever you think of PBP, they have been to the fore in highlighting the above issues and advocating solutions to theses issues. I doubt statues are very high on their list of priorities in fairness

emo72

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Ah come on now, whatever you think of PBP, they have been to the fore in highlighting the above issues and advocating solutions to theses issues. I doubt statues are very high on their list of priorities in fairness

Yeah, I agree with you. Just don't know how statues have come to their attention all of a sudden.

Coillte_Bhoy

emo72 wrote: »

Yeah, I agree with you. Just don't know how statues have come to their attention all of a sudden.

I think it was just the Galway branch that brought it up? In response to Bristol etc, probably juts one or two members and its grown legs. Personally its this kind of thing that that turns off actively supporting PBP and i would be someone favourably disposed to them on many issues

Stewball

biko wrote: »

I couldn't recall it so googled an image


This is it, and that's a bird on top.

Horrible looking thing - deserves to be thrown into the sea.

TheCitizen

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

You realise Ireland is a progressive European country which is much different than the US?
- Free healthcare
- Free education - with essentially unlimited access to 3rd level
- Full employment (until recently)
- Business friendly - if you want to start a business, there's free courses and grants better than most any other country on the planet
- 100 years without war
- English speaking
- Cheap flights
- Liberal laws around marriage, abortion etc
- Excellent entertainment sector, nightlife, gig's, theatre
- Easily accessible great outdoors within a short few hours of any major urban environment
- Engaging, sociable, approachable people with a sense of humour
- Secular society which protects the right of people to practice
- Healthy food, clean water

There's lots of things which don't work, like most any place... but explain to me what exactly is it that you are looking to tear-down and re-work?

So you're saying because a lot of things are going well that we should stop looking for improvements in other areas? :pac:


You sound like the characters in The Life of Brian; "What have the Romans ever done for us...."

emo72

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I think it was just the Galway branch that brought it up? In response to Bristol etc, probably juts one or two members and its grown legs. Personally its this kind of thing that that turns off actively supporting PBP and i would be someone favourably disposed to them on many issues

I couldn't agree more.

TheCitizen

Stewball wrote: »

Horrible looking thing - deserves to be thrown into the sea.

Looks heavy as well

ben.schlomo

emo72 wrote: »

Yeah, that's enough to be concentrating on. The statues aren't stopping people going about their business. Tell them to concentrate on things that will make life better for us all.

Unless the statues thing is just a publicity stunt.

Can we have a poll to see if people want statues removed?

https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/poll-should-galways-christopher-columbus-monument-be-removed/

emo72

ben.schlomo wrote: »

https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/poll-should-galways-christopher-columbus-monument-be-removed/

There you go. 2 to 1 in favour of leaving as is.

Now all pile into a zero hours contract thread and see if we can feck that ****ty working condition into the sea.

TheCitizen

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I think it was just the Galway branch that brought it up? In response to Bristol etc, probably juts one or two members and its grown legs. Personally its this kind of thing that that turns off actively supporting PBP and i would be someone favourably disposed to them on many issues

Why would it turn you off voting for them? What's the harm in raising the issue and debating it? I think it's reasonable to raise issues around cultural racism as it feeds into society in unquantifiable ways. If nothing else it shines light on the issue of racism and debate ensues as a result.

ExMachina1000

TheCitizen wrote: »

Are you talking about Columbus here? I think everything should be up for debate, everything.

We need to realign society and debate everything that has lead to the formation of society where racism is pervasive and so woven into the fabric of culture that we don't even recognise it. Obviously different countries have different degrees of racism but all countries have some form of institutionalised racism ingrained in their society.

They've taken Gone with the Wind off streaming sites in the US. John Ridley film director says it's a good idea to remove it temporarily to cause debate around it and around the issue of racism in general.


https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-06-08/hbo-max-racism-gone-with-the-wind-movie

Posters on this thread use the word "woke" like it's a bad thing or as an insult. It's time they woke up. The world is changing and they can either change with it or sit there moaning and whingeing and snowflaking about it.

When do native citizens actually get to have a say about the direction their country is going in?

Why is public iscusion about immigration into the western world not permitted?

What gives these lefty types permission to dictate?

Coillte_Bhoy

TheCitizen wrote: »

Why would it turn you off voting for them? What's the harm in raising the issue and debating it? I think it's reasonable to raise issues around cultural racism as it feeds into society in unquantifiable ways. If nothing else it shines light on the issue of racism and debate ensues as a result.

No harm at all debating it, maybe im being unfair, but i often feel PBP reps arent interested in debate, just want their viewpoint rammed home, everything is black and white, pardon the pun, ive had a few disagreements with them on social media over various issues, eg calling for a protest at a pro life film in Galway comes to mind.

Coillte_Bhoy

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

When do native citizens actually get to have a say about the direction their country is going in?

Why is public iscusion about immigration into the western world not permitted?

What gives these lefty types permission to dictate?

off you go, nobody's stopping you though why bring immigration up in this thread??

ExMachina1000

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

off you go, nobody's stopping you though why bring immigration up in this thread??

Nobodies stopping me? Think Grealish or Murphy and their comments about immigration. Where t by ey permitted to speak? The media and general public went to town on them. Taboo topic.

If people want to change the world for the better then the opinions of all need to be considered. Not one group dictating to everyone else

Pbp are irrelevant. Leave the statue and put barrett into the sea

Arghus

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Nobodies stopping me? Think Grealish or Murphy and their comments about immigration. Where t by ey permitted to speak? The media and general public went to town on them. Taboo topic.

They were permitted to speak. Grealish's profile was never higher as a result. Please stop with the "they're not permitted to speak" - it's absolute nonsense.

People can challenge their assertions or decide that they don't want them on the ticket of their political party.

Johnny_BravoIII

TheCitizen wrote: »

So you're saying because a lot of things are going well that we should stop looking for improvements in other areas? :pac:


You sound like the characters in The Life of Brian; "What have the Romans ever done for us...."

I don't think you understand the joke in the 'The Life of Brian' buddy.

ExMachina1000

Arghus wrote: »

They were permitted to speak. Grealish's profile was never higher as a result. Please stop with the "they're not permitted to speak" - it's absolute nonsense.

People can challenge their assertions or decide that they don't want them on the ticket of their political party.

Higher because so many agreed with him. The media and members of the general public went to town on him.

No discussion, no debate. One view permitted

TheCitizen

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Nobodies stopping me? Think Grealish or Murphy and their comments about immigration. Where t by ey permitted to speak? The media and general public went to town on them. Taboo topic.

If people want to change the world for the better then the opinions of all need to be considered. Not one group dictating to everyone else

Pbp are irrelevant. Leave the statue and put barrett into the sea

Grealish and Murphy got voted in because they brought it up with the old dog whistle trick.

Murphy the sly dog brought it up and then apologised for it and then was thrown out of FG but got in as an Independent a few months later. She knew exactly what she was at, cos she knows there's a cohort out there that are racist.

Grealish another sly dog wasn't even accurate in his figures. He threw up a few figures in the Dail, got the attention he wanted and got votes for it from racists. Did you vote for him?

ExMachina1000

TheCitizen wrote: »

Grealish and Murphy got voted in because they brought it up with the old dog whistle trick.

Murphy the sly dog brought it up and then apologised for it and then was thrown out of FG but got in as an Independent a few months later. She knew exactly what she was at, cos she knows there's a cohort out there that are racist.

Grealish another sly dog wasn't even accurate in his figures. He threw up a few figures in the Dail, got the attention he wanted and got votes for it from racists. Did you vote for him?

Ah yes. Throw the auld racist card.
You've proven my point

TheCitizen

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

I don't think you understand the joke in the 'The Life of Brian' buddy.

I understand it perfectly. I'm not sure you do

TheCitizen

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Ah yes. Throw the auld racist card.
You've proven my point

Ah yes indulge in the old dog whistle. You've proven my point.

ExMachina1000

TheCitizen wrote: »

Ah yes indulge in the old dog whistle. You've proven my point.

Reality is here
























You are here

TheCitizen

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

No harm at all debating it, maybe im being unfair, but i often feel PBP reps arent interested in debate, just want their viewpoint rammed home, everything is black and white, pardon the pun, ive had a few disagreements with them on social media over various issues, eg calling for a protest at a pro life film in Galway comes to mind.

I don't speak for them, I don't even vote for them but I don't see anything wrong in what they did when calling for debate around the Columbus statue in this instance. They called for it to be removed which caused debate is the point.

TheCitizen

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Reality is here
























You are here

Is there a point there or are you asking me to fill in the blanks for you?