PBP want to tear down stuff in Galway

whisky_galore

Lol, PBP.
Shower of dopes with can't pay/won't pay followers with no stake in the country.

Rodney Bathgate

gordongekko wrote: »

Worse than the cycling threads

IBTL

I always think of IBS when I see IBTL. Too much reading of the ‘etiquette’ thread. Not a sufferer, before you ask.

Arghus

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Yeeaaaahh f*ck history!! TEAR IT ALL DOWN. LETS BULLDOZE AUSCHWITZ WHILE WE’RE AT IT. F*CK HITLER.


It’s exactly the type of moronic brain dead post I’d expect to see on 2020 boards.

Auschwitz is a false comparison here.

Auschwitz isn't maintained because people think Hitler was a great lad. Auschwitz stands as a memorial to what did happen and as a warning about what is possible. Auschwitz can't be criticised as an attempt to whitewash history: it's the exact opposite. That's why nobody ever makes the argument that it should be bulldozed. That's an exaggeration and misrepresentation of what this argument is about.

There is a difference though when you talk about removing statues or any kind of public works that either glorify or unacknowledge the less than stellar parts of history. If you're arguing in favour of their removal/alteration, then that isn't the same as arguing in favour of the removal etc of ALL historical public works. Context is important.

Galwayguy35

They will probably get a few talking heads from the city to agree with it but they would be laughed out of it by the folks in Tuam.

Arghus

I don't think this that big a deal in reality, it was a bit of kite flying from a pretty marginal political party, but whatever PBP says tends to get a reaction around here disproportionate to the actual real world importance of what they say.

biko

I don't want to lock this as it would be nice to have a discussion around these things.
However, it has be in a calm and factual manner.
Cards handed out for some less than civil posts.

jammiedodgers

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

What is that lad up to these days? Has he graduated yet?

I believe he's graduated to smashing tablets instead of phones now.

TheCitizen

Arghus wrote: »

Auschwitz is a false comparison here.

Auschwitz isn't maintained because people think Hitler was a great lad. Auschwitz stands as a memorial to what did happen and as a warning about what is possible. Auschwitz can't be criticised as an attempt to whitewash history: it's the exact opposite. That's why nobody ever makes the argument that it should be bulldozed. That's an exaggeration and misrepresentation of what this argument is about.

There is a difference though when you talk about removing statues or any kind of public works that either glorify or unacknowledge the less than stellar parts of history. If you're arguing in favour of their removal/alteration, then that isn't the same as arguing in favour of the removal etc of ALL historical public works. Context is important.

Good point. I don’t think it’s unreasonable that PBP are raising this issue. It appears that because it’s coming from them that there’s a lot of opposition to the notion of discussing removing or relocating monuments to people who held views or engaged in practices that nowadays are completely unacceptable.

There’s a legitimate debate to be had around this issue.

Stewball

Curious as to whether the people objecting to the removal of the Christopher Columbus memorial - would have any objection to erecting a Che Guevara memorial?
Which nearly happened a few years ago.

Floody Boreland

TheCitizen wrote: »

Statues and monuments get removed and relocated all the time. The authorities wherever they are should keep up and be on top of it.

like to see Leo on top of the Spire

Galwayguy35

TheCitizen wrote: »

Good point. I don’t think it’s unreasonable that PBP are raising this issue. It appears that because it’s coming from them that there’s a lot of opposition to the notion of discussing removing or relocating monuments to people who held views or engaged in practices that nowadays are completely unacceptable.

There’s a legitimate debate to be had around this issue.

Not there isn't, Ireland never brought over slaves from Africa or invaded countries and plundered all the natural resources in those countries.

Johnny_BravoIII

These people are ideologues. Their first instinct is to tear down symbols that disagree with their ideology.

It's why the nazis burned books, its why ISIS desecrate religious monuments.

Arghus

Only on boards do I see PBP compared with Nazis and ISIS.

You guys do like to exaggerate.

Johnny_BravoIII

Arghus wrote: »

Only on boards do I see PBP compared with Nazis and ISIS.

You guys do like to exaggerate.

I'm not comparing the politics.
Where does the instinct to tear down historical symbolism come from?

This 'book burning' instinct is coming from a dangerous place. If you can't see that your thinking has become blinkered.

It's not possible to argue rationally with an ideologue. They are too trapped within the walls of their own ideology.

Typically they can only see black and white. Either something agrees with their world view (ideology) or it doesn't. Right versus wrong. Wrong must be attacked.

If your reading this and you can't strawman the otherside of the argument, then you are captured by ideology. You have lost the ability to think independently. You are acting from a 1/0, comply/doesn't comply world view.

Can you name one historical context where destruction of historical symbolism has been the just course of action?

Should we burn art we don't agree with or find offensive?

JohnnyFlash

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

I'm not comparing the politics.
Where does the instinct to tear down historical symbolism come from?

This 'book burning' instinct is coming from a dangerous place. If you can't see that your thinking has become blinkered.

It's not possible to argue rationally with an ideologue. They are too trapped within the walls of their own ideology.

A small handful of perpetual students, losers, and beatniks hanging around Galway getting angry on the internet is in no way comparable to the atrocities committed by the Nazis.

Some of them have been told that the Soviet Union was a great place, but that's just stupidity and naivety on their behalf. Harmless sorts.

Arghus

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

I'm not comparing the politics.
Where does the instinct to tear down historical symbolism come from?

This 'book burning' instinct is coming from a dangerous place. If you can't see that your thinking has become blinkered.

My own thinking isn't so blinkered that I think Nazi book burning and the pronouncements of PBP are comparable things.

It's not possible to argue rationally with an ideologue. They are too trapped within the walls of their own ideology.

Typically they can only see black and white. Either something agrees with their world view (ideology) or it doesn't. Right versus wrong. Wrong must be attacked.

To be fair, you seem quite black and white on this issue yourself.

Sheep_shear

Stewball wrote: »

Curious as to whether the people objecting to the removal of the Christopher Columbus memorial - would have any objection to erecting a Che Guevara memorial?
Which nearly happened a few years ago.

Ah yes, bloody hell that thing would have an eyesore at the very least - https://connachttribune.ie/che-statue-on-salthill-prom-sparks-outcry/

TheCitizen

Sheep_shear wrote: »

Ah yes, bloody hell that thing would have an eyesore at the very least - https://connachttribune.ie/che-statue-on-salthill-prom-sparks-outcry/

I like it. When are they going to get around to erecting it.

ExMachina1000

Egyptian protesters want the Pyramids pulled down as they were built by slave labour.

TheCitizen

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Egyptian protesters want the Pyramids pulled down as they were built by slave labour.

haha the shark has been jumped

?Cee?view

TheCitizen wrote: »

It's best to remove them and put them away somewhere like a museum than leave them standing up in public streets and squares like an anachronistic sore thumb. That's what happened with Nelson's Pillar. That one should have been removed long before it was correctly taken out of it.

If you actually believe what you've stated here about Nelson's Pillar, the irony aptly demonstrates why rewriting history to remove monuments on the whim of impetuous failed politicians, isn't the best course of action.

TheCitizen

?Cee?view wrote: »

If you actually believe what you've stated here about Nelson's Pillar, the irony aptly demonstrates why rewriting history to remove monuments on the whim of impetuous failed politicians, isn't the best course of action.

You're going to have to explain yourself here; are you saying that Nelson's Pillar should have remained in situ?

It isn't unusual to remove or relocate monuments and statues, it can happen for various reasons. Nelson's Pillar should have been removed by the state, but there was much hilarity when it got taken out of it later anyway.

?Cee?view

TheCitizen wrote: »

You're going to have to explain yourself here; are you saying that Nelson's Pillar should have remained in situ?

It isn't unusual to remove or relocate monuments and statues, it can happen for various reasons. Nelson's Pillar should have been removed by the state, but there was much hilarity when it got taken out of it later anyway.

I don't have to explain myself. You wrote:

"It's best to remove them and put them away somewhere like a museum than leave them standing up in public streets and squares like an anachronistic sore thumb. That's what happened with Nelson's Pillar."

biko

So who's statue do we put up instead?
Who is without sin?

TheCitizen

?Cee?view wrote: »

I don't have to explain myself. You wrote:

"It's best to remove them and put them away somewhere like a museum than leave them standing up in public streets and squares like an anachronistic sore thumb. That's what happened with Nelson's Pillar."

I'm saying Nelson should have been removed by the state. When the authorities were too slow to act the job of taking Nelson out of it was done by someone else.

Edit; They were calls to remove that statue in Bristol for years. It should have been discussed properly and the City Council perhaps vote on it. The inaction lead to what you saw the other day.

Was good crack though arising from Nelson's removal;

"Oh, poor old Admiral Nelson is no longer in the air.
Toora loora loora loora loo!...."

TheCitizen

biko wrote: »

So who's statue do we put up instead?
Who is without sin?

Are you talking about Columbus here? I think everything should be up for debate, everything.

We need to realign society and debate everything that has lead to the formation of society where racism is pervasive and so woven into the fabric of culture that we don't even recognise it. Obviously different countries have different degrees of racism but all countries have some form of institutionalised racism ingrained in their society.

They've taken Gone with the Wind off streaming sites in the US. John Ridley film director says it's a good idea to remove it temporarily to cause debate around it and around the issue of racism in general.


https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-06-08/hbo-max-racism-gone-with-the-wind-movie

Posters on this thread use the word "woke" like it's a bad thing or as an insult. It's time they woke up. The world is changing and they can either change with it or sit there moaning and whingeing and snowflaking about it.

thecretinhop

TheCitizen wrote: »

Are you talking about Columbus here? I think everything should be up for debate, everything.

We need to realign society and debate everything that has lead to the formation of society where racism is pervasive and so woven into the fabric of culture that we don't even recognise it. Obviously different countries have different degrees of racism but all countries have some form of institutionalised racism ingrained in their society.

They've taken Gone with the Wind off streaming sites in the US. John Ridley film director says it's a good idea to remove it temporarily to cause debate around it and around the issue of racism in general.


https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-06-08/hbo-max-racism-gone-with-the-wind-movie

Posters on this thread use the word "woke" like it's a bad thing or as an insult. It's time they woke up. The world is changing and they can either change with it or sit there moaning and whingeing and snowflaking about it.

The world isn't changing it's been hijacked by liberal radical loons who have rich daddies and nothing else to worry about. A lot of people I talked to who are mostly left wing (I have no problem with moderates) were appalled by the marches here and the looting in US.

TheCitizen

thecretinhop wrote: »

The world isn't changing it's been hijacked by liberal radical loons who have rich daddies and nothing else to worry about. A lot of people I talked to who are mostly left wing (I have no problem with moderates) were appalled by the marches here and the looting in US.

You have all sorts of consequences when upheaval takes place. Looting is people just taking advantage, the marches here (I wasn't on them) shouldn't have happened due to current social restrictions in my view.

However it's far too easy to write it off as "liberal radical loons who have rich daddies" hijacking the world. Killing people cos they are black like that cop did is not acceptable and never was, but with this movement it will not be tolerated any longer.

Was watching 13th on netflix, shocking statistics re the numbers of the black population that end up in jail at some point in their lives. 1 in 3 it was. Also the jail system in the USA privatised so that it's in their interests to fill their jails with criminals and then they work for big corporations for feck all pay. Another form of slave labour. This isn't just about black people.


It applies in this country in different ways. You've got private health insurance that people on this site will argue tooth and nail in favour of (because perhaps they pay for it and don't want to be proven wrong). Private health insurance just causes divisions in the way we construct our health services and provide for the citizens.

We need to rework society to make it tick for all of us and stop creating divisions and pitting one group against another to make some feel better about themselves because others are suffering more than they do. It's the sort of nonsense that has lead to morons like Trump and Johnson getting elected. It's not new, Thatcher made a career for herself by causing division in the UK between the North and South of the UK.

It's time to wake up, to stop repeating history, to stop creating and reinforcing divisions between people that are manmade. Time to get Woke.

emo72

PBP should be concerned about making life better for citizens. They should be trying to improve everyone's quality of life.

Zero hour contracts. High rents. Long commutes. Decent childcare. There's tons of stuff we should all be concentrating on improving.

Statues are way down on my list of priorities. I'm too busy raising a family to be offended by a statue.

biko

I couldn't recall it so googled an image


This is it, and that's a bird on top.