HBO temporarily pulls Gone with the Wind from streaming

Agent Coulson

Warner Bros were already doing this this so I'm surprised no one at the company thought of doing it for other outdated movies and series.

Drumpot

pixelburp wrote: »

Don't underestimate the open wound in American culture that is slavery. It was only abolished in 1865 - that's barely a half dozen generations back and I daresay depending on what family you speak to can still be relatively raw. Its presence easily leaked into much of the 20th century. The Tulsa Massacre, Jim Crow etc. was all part of that tapestry. 20th century entertainment included.

Unlike other countries that had open, frank conversations about its past - be it Germany, South Africa, NI, etc. - America has just chipped along like nothing happened, then acted shocked when people get upset there are still Confederate statues sitting about.

Our perspective is all kind of irrelevant here - especially given we can't even get HBO's streaming service. I don't pretend to know how the ordinary African American feels, but I daresay many can easily trace their family tree back to a slave past. It's complicated, but judging by the state of the US right now - won't get any simpler either.

Ireland was in a civil war until very recently, thanks to our UK Neighbours trying to literally rape and starve us out of existence. I’d say most people in Ireland can trace their family back to some horrific event perpetrated by our British friends and yet we have managed to find a way to move beyond as a country.

Do you think the good Friday agreement, independence from UK (maybe EU membership) and financial prosperity has made it easier for us to actually overcome and move on from our aggressors? Genuine question, not meant to be antagonistic.

I had this discussion with a friend who lives in USA and his suggestion was that our ancestors didn’t have it as bad as slaves, I don’t understand how anybody could suggest that. I’m curious why the potatoe famine and the way the Brits abused us is not really that bad in comparison to racism/slavery. Not saying you are suggesting it, but I don’t think Ireland’s history is necessarily a bundle of laughs and I’m not so sure Irish people had it easy in USA (no Irish need apply) or UK (no Irish no blacks no Dogs ) for long periods of time yet it doesn’t appear to be defining us or holding us back In the long term.

Just to add, we haven’t shaken the drunken Irish idea that many believe and joke about but that’s not considered a slanderous negative stereotype for some reason.

whisky_galore

Drumpot wrote: »

Just to add, we haven’t shaken the drunken Irish idea that many believe and joke about but that’s not considered a slanderous negative stereotype for some reason.

Maybe because there's a grain of truth in there.

ronano

whisky_galore wrote: »

Maybe because there's a grain of truth in there.

There's a grain of truth in most stereotypes, it doesn't make it fair, just or appropriate to apply it to a whole people

joe40

ronano wrote: »

There's a grain of truth in most stereotypes, it doesn't make it fair, just or appropriate to apply it to a whole people

I'm not an EastEnders fan so maybe someone can help me out, but did they have a story line that was set I Ireland for a few episodes.
However due to the way Ireland was portrayed there was complaints from here at a fairly high govt level.
It's possible I'm mis remembering something.

The Raging Bile Duct

joe40 wrote: »

I'm not an EastEnders fan so maybe someone can help me out, but did they have a story line that was set I Ireland for a few episodes.
However due to the way Ireland was portrayed there was complaints from here at a fairly high govt level.
It's possible I'm mis remembering something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EastEnders_episodes_in_Ireland

Luckily for us Digital stuff will always stay in existence whereas 'regimes' of history who burned books and art destroyed things forever, we will always have access.

This is just another movement where the root of the cause is just, but the actions and results will in the end be catastrophic. Communism was the same starting with good intentions but leading to greed, poverty and death, even fascism started from people being 'wronged' just in a financial way instead of a race way which eventually led to a world war.

I feel like this 'regime' or movement will lead to civil war in America. Even though Minnesota was under Democratic governors and mayors for decades, the police action are being blamed on Trump and more riots will start closer to the election time if it looks like he will get the vote.
I hope Oliver Stone can put out one more great movie and some how capture all of this US madness in the next few years!

GreeBo

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Except Gone with the Wind isn’t being edited - watching the film will be exactly the same as ever.

Every time I’ve seen a note about ‘outdated racial stereotypes’ or whatnot before a film it’s been a simple text disclaimer before the film itself plays out in its original, completely unedited form.

It shouldnt be taken down at all though, if you want to add something, add something, but dont take it down to add it, that sends the wrong message IMO.

pixelburp

Drumpot wrote: »

Ireland was in a civil war until very recently, thanks to our UK Neighbours trying to literally rape and starve us out of existence. I’d say most people in Ireland can trace their family back to some horrific event perpetrated by our British friends and yet we have managed to find a way to move beyond as a country.

Do you think the good Friday agreement, independence from UK (maybe EU membership) and financial prosperity has made it easier for us to actually overcome and move on from our aggressors? Genuine question, not meant to be antagonistic.

We've engaged with the past though.

You pointed at a big difference ... we had a hand in our own destiny: our independence was hard won, but once achieved broadly respected & the UK became our chief economic partner (albeit through necessity, until the EU became a bigger one). The Civil War was brutal but its legacy became unavoidable: Northern Ireland has been an open wound in our national conversation. We couldn't shy away from it 'cos it remained an active socio-political issue. It was right there on the map.

You look to America then & as I said, it's a big horrible mix of denial and political chicanery. Laws like Jim Crow or violent tragedies like Tulsa showed slavery - while technically illegal - still existed albeit in different more insidious forms. Prejudicial laws and culture existed well into the later 20th century - the lifetime of many Americans right now. My American history is sketchy but when slavery became illegal, many owners just worked around the federal decrees; IIRC many/most slaves never saw the money & parcels of land promised them. Ultimately the slaves were pawns and passive in their own futures.

As is often the case in politics, the Big Gesture made the headlines but time & money wasn't put into adjusting everyone to the new normal. Cue a Civil War. Even to this day there's talk of returning to that missing recompense. Republican leader Mitch McConnell recently shot it down, with a snide dismissal that there was nobody alive from the 19th century, dismissing all those families. But I suspect a lot of white America doesn't want to touch the subject: it's a can of worms overflowing but no politician wants to be the one to finally pop the lid. Not least for all the uncomfortable conversations when people realise their confederate or slaver industry past.

As another poster pointed out, when the Gone with the Wind opened you had veterans of the Civil War present, in uniform. That's an insane, incendiary thought. Imagine Black & Tans veterans present at ... I dunno, the 90s Michael Collins film. Theoretically possible, if some of those soldiers were 16, 17.

Mind you, Britain herself needs to come to terms with the past: it's not an entirely fringe belief that the British Empire was ultimately a positive, enlightening force across the world. With its own changing cultural landscape, it may need to front up to the very real impact it had on current citizens' ancestors. Arguably the Famine remains an unrecognised, passive genocide by the British establishment (Priti Patel snarking that the UK could starve Ireland into a Brexit agreement). The recent destruction of statuses in the UK a clear pointer that Pax Britanicca isn't so warmly regarded by a lot of her population.

Drumpot

ronano wrote: »

There's a grain of truth in most stereotypes, it doesn't make it fair, just or appropriate to apply it to a whole people

This is the thing, if there’s truth in a joke/stereotype, then it’s actually more about the response of the people on the receiving end of the joke/stereotype.

If it doesn’t offend or if that people aren’t bothered that much by it, then it continues. But if somebody kicks up a fuss it’s outlawed by character assassination. That’s the way things appear to be going, zero tolerance on anything that upsets people and no room for people to have difference of opinions, a total “you are with us or agaisnt is” approach.. You are better off keeping things to yourself these days so the perennial outraged mob don’t lynch you.

johnny_ultimate

GreeBo wrote: »

It shouldnt be taken down at all though, if you want to add something, add something, but dont take it down to add it, that sends the wrong message IMO.

Which I’ve clearly said in multiple other posts in this thread

To be abundantly clear: it’s hyperbolic to equate adding some contextual details before/after an unedited film to censorship. However, removing the film ‘temporarily’ from a single streaming service is a pointless, token gesture that achieves nothing significant (other than giving a bunch of bad faith culture warriors fuel for their endless persecution complex).

El Duda

I'll be shocked if racism is still a thing in a couple of years time. Getting rid of Little Britain/Gone with the Wind/Come Fly with me is like killing off the Queen ant to destroy the colony.

[/sarcasm]

branie2

Could Michael Collins be pulled because of "terrorism"? :rolleyes:

whisky_galore

branie2 wrote: »

Could Michael Collins be pulled because of "terrorism"? :rolleyes:

It's as much fiction as a Marvel movie anyway.

murpho999

I really don't get the mentality here.


I can go on You Tube and easily access Nazi Propaganga films.

We all know their message is wrong and twisted but does not mean it shouldn't be available as a historical document.


Films are also a reflection of society and thinking at the time. Older films would show dated opinions on race, sexuality,politics, feminism, consent.

You name it, basically every social norm that is being discussed today can be found in older films and TV.

These can't be denied and the audience should be trusted to judge a piece of work for what it is.

p to the e

With HBO MAX having only been launched quite recently am I being too cynical in thinking it was a stunt to get free publicity?

silverharp

murpho999 wrote: »

I really don't get the mentality here.


I can go on You Tube and easily access Nazi Propaganga films.

We all know their message is wrong and twisted but does not mean it shouldn't be available as a historical document.


Films are also a reflection of society and thinking at the time. Older films would show dated opinions on race, sexuality,politics, feminism, consent.

You name it, basically every social norm that is being discussed today can be found in older films and TV.

These can't be denied and the audience should be trusted to judge a piece of work for what it is.

I wouldnt be looking for logical reasons , this is a US/British version of moving statues. too many people with too much time on their hands

Snickers Man

It hasn't been banned; just sent to the naughty corner for a while.

I think there's a rite of passage that oppressed/subjected people pass through on the road to emancipation. One is a sort of petty outrage that tries to impose a rigid interpretation on what is right/correct/acceptable and denounces any deviance from this path as perverse, evil or obsolete.

We went through pretty much the same. JM Synge's Playboy of the Western World attracted riots for mentioning how women might look in their underwear. "Irish girls don't do that sort of thing!" shrieked the disapprovers. Evn though Synge, when writing the play, lived in a country mansion right above the servants quarters and could hear the girls gossiping below through a crack in the floorboard so he was dealing with a primary source!

Some years later, O'Casey's Plough and the Stars was brought to a standstill because people objected to the depiction of an ordinary Dublin colleen as a prostitute. "The very idea! In our capital city in 1916! How dare you!" Dublin at the time was a large garrison town and where you have lots of soldiers and lots of women in poverty, there you have plenty of hookers. Dublin's red light district, Montgomery Street or Monto, was notorious for being one of the largest in Europe. As the protesters would have known if they'd read Joyce, as they might have been able to do had HIS works not been banned.

Speaking of bans, remember when it was a mortal sin to play or even WATCH garrison games like soccer or rugby? No true Irishman would sully himself to engage with the sort of games that Englishmen, yeuch, play. (You know what those Godless heathens do to each other in the bath afterwards?) That stayed in place until 1970!!!! Thank God for the advent of TV which undermined that nonsense.

Today, we look back on these excesses with amusement and some shame. Hopefully, when black America is in a better place they will be able to look back on excesses such as this with similar wry amusement.

Agent Coulson

The Guardian is reporting that UKTV has removed the Don’t mention the War episode of Fawlty Towers from there catch up service. The channel is owned by the BBC.

CastorTroy

I'm just remembering the episode of South Park where they had to put on a Christmas play with anything that could be considered offensive removed.
So no stars, trees, Christian references, Santa, etc.

Arghus

I've spent a lot of time in AH recently and it actually came as a shock to me to see some worthwhile debate on the issue in this thread - I'd become so inured to idiocy taking up 90% of the content of a discussion on just about anything.

As many people have pointed out it hasn't been banned. I don't really have a problem with them providing some information on the historical context as it relates to the movie. It's a good idea to be honest. Nobody is talking about altering the content of the film or suppressing it outright. Also, as, once again, many people have pointed out GWTW is one of many films that has extremely dodge historical elements, but is undoubtedly a key work in the history of cinema - I see no harm in ensuring that the film can still remain to be watched, but also making reference to an important piece of context.

p to the e

Agent Coulson wrote: »

The Guardian is reporting that UKTV has removed the Don’t mention the War episode of Fawlty Towers from there catch up service. The channel is owned by the BBC.

Surely you can't say BBC anymore

WengerOutIn

WengerOutIn wrote: »

Gladiator has slaves. Spartacus needs to go. We need to remove anything built by the Romans and Greeks. There is a pretty big list that needs sorting before we can put this matter to rest. Also, I am sure that a lot of Muslim architecture pre 1850 should be investigated for the use of slavery too. All slaves matter.

The Roman empire fell in the 1400s.

America is, for now, dominant empire.


Their actions and current racial tensions are relevant, those of Rome are not

dublinman1990

I have a few Looney Tunes DVDs at home that do display a disclaimer notice before their content starts. I don't have a problem with it as this type of stuff is nothing new. It has been done on physical media before for several years. The content on the DVDs that have the disclaimer notice still plays out as it was when it was first broadcast to the public from the era that it was made. I think people who may think that removing GWTW along with other content being taken off streaming services as beginning an influence of censorship by corporations is really silly.

People here aren't thinking clearly in their own heads that the content being temporarily removed from HBO Max will eventually come back with everything intact with an advisory warning added at the beginning which fully explains it's context. The people who are protesting this decision by WB for briefly removing GWTW want to give us the impression that these mega corporations are acting like the big evil bad guys. They want you to believe that we deserve to be permanently suffering just because we are apparently nazi's or racists just for watching their content without knowing it's proper context. These corporations are not really there to convey that type of message to either you or me at all. They are trying to say to us that the eras in which this content was made is there to educate us on how racism & abuse is done towards other innocent people when the settings used for them are sudden and inappropriate & how to eradicate them from society in future. The disclaimer notices really do a great job in how these huge problems are highlighted within our society. It's a simple message explaining how racism & abuse is highlighted in the content that was made from that particular era whilst acknowledging it's failures to a newer audience. This newer audience should then be able to understand the message that those two crimes should not be tolerated to any other members of society after you watch the content which should lessen it's negative influence for good.

Ignorant people really don't want to understand that this decision by WB is only temporary as it will give them something to moan about in their spare time.

p to the e wrote: »

Surely you can't say BBC anymore

BBC Studios does own UKTV nowadays.

IrishJedi75

Are they going to delete the James Bond film “ Live and let die “ as well? That movie has ...shock! Horror! BLACK PEOPLE PLAYING VILLAINS!!!🀭

Chris_Heilong

sydthebeat wrote: »

Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

History is there to be recognised and learned from.

This "washing" of racism from our history is illogical and dangerous.

I am just watching star trek on netflix and this is a perfect Vulcan response which I happen to agree with.

p to the e

dublinman1990 wrote: »

BBC Studios does own UKTV nowadays.

CastorTroy

They should've just left it until the end of the month and take it down like they're doing with their DC movies. Turns out that they decided to go with the idea of rotating films instead of having them be accessible at all times

Tony EH

Sad Professor wrote: »

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hbo-max-pulls-gone-with-the-wind-11591754904

Thoughts?

It's dumb.

Tony EH

PsychoPete wrote: »

Where do you draw the line with this kind of stuff ?

Who knows?

'Gone With the Wind" is now too controversial just to be shown without "additional content" and David Copperfield is now a Desi. :rolleyes:

Lamentable isn't the word for it.

Seriously though, who benefits from this kind of stuff? I've yet to see any cogent argument that outlines what good there is in pulling, censoring or just kicking up dust about movies.

Personally, I don't give a crap, cos I have 'Gone With the Wind' on Blu Ray, and fantastic it looks too.

It's gas, I remember the 80's when Mary Whitehouse led her campaign to ban video nasties and it did absolutely bugger all except piss people off and create an underground in illegal video trading.

Now, there's streaming networks censoring classic movies and getting their knickers in a twist because white characters aren't beating the shit out of black characters 27/4 in a story set during the 1860's.

'Gone With the Wind' doesn't need to be "backed up with additional content".