What if there's no dole?

FutureTeashock

The economy is currently going massively tits up, the extent to which is unclear, but a major recession is on the cards.


So is it conceivable that the social protection system simply collapses and no dole payments are processed?


It's horrifying to think about, but I think it's best to prepare oneself for all eventualities.

RandomViewer

FutureTeashock wrote: »

The economy is currently going massively tits up, the extent to which is unclear, but a major recession is on the cards.


So is it conceivable that the social protection system simply collapses and no dole payments are processed?


It's horrifying to think about, but I think it's best to prepare oneself for all eventualities.

SW makes up a huge part of spending in the economy, pensions, child benefit, sick pay, maternity benefit and jobseekers, take it away and unemployment doubles at least, not to mention the societal issues, think BLM turbocharged in the cities

Queasy Tadpole

Crime would go through the roof. People are not going to starve.

Jim Root

Would would be the negative effect of reducing the dole by 20% for those not actively seeking work/ making it a lifestyle choice??

Padre_Pio

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

Crime would go through the roof. People are not going to starve.

For all the talk of dole scroungers, imagine if dole scroungers weren't able to claim the dole...

RandomViewer

Jim Root wrote: »

Would would be the negative effect of reducing the dole by 20% for those not actively seeking work/ making it a lifestyle choice??

Where's your proof? Will it stand up in court because that's where it would end up

Gatling

Massive cuts maybe but it won't collapse ,

20bn pa wouldn't be substainable if the economy completely collapsed

Turbohymac

It would be great for the many long term dole spongers that have been availing of the dole over the past 10/15years and actually never ever want to take up employment..as for anybody that is genuinely unemployed short term well they would have my full support and the dole should be there for those people..
But longterm spongers ....gaining from the taxpayers totally wrong
Prior to the covid pandemic the government even claimed that we were at full employment level ..yet there around 5% unemployment rate..most of those unemployed within the 5% bracket are those longterm dole spongers

RandomViewer

Gatling wrote: »

Massive cuts maybe but it won't collapse ,

20bn pa wouldn't be substainable if the economy completely collapsed

You got to figure that with the sort of collapse the OP suggests above the counter trade would vanish, with possibly in excess of 1 million unemployed everything would be cash in hand

4068ac1elhodqr

Zero chance of no dole, if anything standby for global welfaresoup v2.0
I.e. risk-free 'dole+' (aka UBI).

RandomViewer

Turbohymac wrote: »

It would be great for the many long term dole spongers that have been availing of the dole over the past 10/15years and actually never ever want to take up employment..as for anybody that is genuinely unemployed short term well they would have my full support and the dole should be there for those people..
But longterm spongers ....gaining from the taxpayers totally wrong

Very few people would fall into this category and the ones that do fall into a mostly cultural group,

FutureTeashock

Raquel Low Zenith wrote: »

Zero chance of no dole, if anything standby for global welfaresoup v2.0
I.e. risk-free 'dole+' (aka UBI).

My concern with UBI is that it would be digital only and subject to various onerous conditions.

Pauliedragon

It costs nothing to borrow right now. We will borrow 10's of billions which wont have to be paid back for decades. Not ideal but it's the best we have it seems.

Turbohymac

Jeepers. Random viewer where I live I know a couple of people over the past 20 years that just plainly milk the dole system dry..and never want to work..very annoying to workers

4068ac1elhodqr

FutureTeashock wrote: »

My concern with UBI is that it would be digital only and subject to various onerous conditions.

Very, very most likely.

In the land of Aus, they already ran a trial and Bruce/Sheila were unable to purchase anything at all within their local bottle shop (booze blocker), on their welfare day digital card. Think smokes were also nullified transactions.

Geuze

FutureTeashock wrote: »

So is it conceivable that the social protection system simply collapses and no dole payments are processed?

It's horrifying to think about, but I think it's best to prepare oneself for all eventualities.

I have often thought that the dole (JSA) should be abolished, JSB should be increased, and all LT unemployed should be offered paid work.

Several countries don't have any "dole" (JSA): the USA, Denmark.

RandomViewer

Turbohymac wrote: »

Jeepers. Random viewer where I live I know a couple of people over the past 20 years that just plainly milk the dole system dry..and never want to work..very annoying to workers

Must depend on location, around here they'll be putting you on courses or schemes as soon as possible, over the last few years we've had quite a number through my workplace who've been sent by SW, most don't last but they technically aren't long term anymore

Flimsy_Boat

Geuze wrote: »

I have often thought that the dole (JSA) should be abolished, JSB should be increased, and all LT unemployed should be offered paid work.

Several countries don't have any "dole" (JSA): the USA, Denmark.

I'm a single woman on JSA this summer because I moved to Ireland 4 years ago and don't have enough PRSI credits. Hate to think people like you think I should just suffer. I also just completed one year of graduate entry medical school but needed SWA and JSA at certain times, it has been a hard slog.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Flimsy_Boat wrote: »

I'm a single woman on JSA this summer because I moved to Ireland 4 years ago and don't have enough PRSI credits. Hate to think people like you think I should just suffer. I also just completed one year of graduate entry medical school but needed SWA and JSA at certain times, it has been a hard slog.

But you're bettering yourself.
Some people just languish on it for years sponging off us .

Best of luck ... Hope to see Dr Boat on a hospital door some time

Geuze

Flimsy_Boat wrote: »

I'm a single woman on JSA this summer because I moved to Ireland 4 years ago and don't have enough PRSI credits. Hate to think people like you think I should just suffer. I also just completed one year of graduate entry medical school but needed SWA and JSA at certain times, it has been a hard slog.

Fair enough.

No right to JSB after four years employment?


I think these are the conditions for JSB:

"104 weekly contributions paid since starting work and 39 of those during the year preceding the benefit year, or 26 weekly contributions paid in each of the two relevant tax years preceding the benefit year"

Fred Cryton

Tax revenues fell by around €25bn between 2008 and 2011....and they still protected the dole, even with the IMF in.

I think the only way we would be able to cut the dole in this country is if the IMF had to bail us out a second time and demanded it as a condition.

So basically, i'm hoping the IMF have to come in. Takes the gombeen local Irish politics out of it.

NIMAN

Did those on Jobseekers of 203 get up'd to the 350 during the pandemic?

RandomViewer

NIMAN wrote: »

Did those on Jobseekers of 203 get up'd to the 350 during the pandemic?

No

gifted

If you work 1 year and pay any kind of tax then you should get everything for 1 year..then cut it by 20% every month after that

Work for 5 years then everything for 5 years and so on

kravmaga

RandomViewer wrote: »

Very few people would fall into this category and the ones that do fall into a mostly cultural group,

And what cultural group would that be?

I've said this before on here, but I'll say it again, cos I love the sound of my own keyboard.

I think €203 is a reasonable amount of money to give to someone who doesn't want to work. I reckon it should be a valid option, that you can have the €203 and Social Welfare won't pester or annoy you. You don't want to work, that's grand. Auxiliary benefits (relating to being a lone parent, rent allowance, heat allowance etc.) should all be stripped away, though.

203 to sit about and not take an active interest in getting employment seems fair enough to me. Not everyone is a waster. Some are just not interested in work and want to pursue arts, personal interests, etc. so if they're happy with 203, and can make ends meet on that, then let them at it.

However, if you come before a court, for criminality, etc. then fines should be taken at source from your 203. To keep you on the straight and narrow.

You'll live a lesser quality of life, will likely never own your own house, have a fancy car, be able to take multiple holidays etc. but there's no point in wasting the time of many public sector workers by pretending you're going to look for a job, and SW sending you out forms about where have you been looking for work etc.

FutureTeashock

Deleted User wrote: »

I've said this before on here, but I'll say it again, cos I love the sound of my own keyboard.

I think €203 is a reasonable amount of money to give to someone who doesn't want to work. I reckon it should be a valid option, that you can have the €203 and Social Welfare won't pester or annoy you. You don't want to work, that's grand. Auxiliary benefits (relating to being a lone parent, rent allowance, heat allowance etc.) should all be stripped away, though.

203 to sit about and not take an active interest in getting employment seems fair enough to me. Not everyone is a waster. Some are just not interested in work and want to pursue arts, personal interests, etc. so if they're happy with 203, and can make ends meet on that, then let them at it.

However, if you come before a court, for criminality, etc. then fines should be taken at source from your 203. To keep you on the straight and narrow.

You'll live a lesser quality of life, will likely never own your own house, have a fancy car, be able to take multiple holidays etc. but there's no point in wasting the time of many public sector workers by pretending you're going to look for a job, and SW sending you out forms about where have you been looking for work etc.

This makes a lot of sense, especially because in large parts of the country the jobs simply aren't there. And it's about to get a hell a of a lot worse.

Queasy Tadpole

Deleted User wrote: »

However, if you come before a court, for criminality, etc. then fines should be taken at source from your 203. To keep you on the straight and narrow

Think about this from the perspective of the person you're talking about. You're Anto, you're on the dole, you commit a crime, a small one and your dole is now cut to pay your fines.


Anto has two kids and a wife, he now gets €100 a week since he is being fined due to his criminal behavior. Is Anto going to let his two children and wife starve? No. Anto is going to commit crimes to get money. He's going to go to KKV's house and rob his car.


Taking money off the poor is not going to help anyone. Let Anto have his €203 a week, it's not a life of envy.

dresden8

FutureTeashock wrote: »

The economy is currently going massively tits up, the extent to which is unclear, but a major recession is on the cards.


So is it conceivable that the social protection system simply collapses and no dole payments are processed?


It's horrifying to think about, but I think it's best to prepare oneself for all eventualities.

Isn't poverty proofing a thing. ESRI and all that?

Queasy Tadpole

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

Think about this from the perspective of the person you're talking about. You're Anto, you're on the dole, you commit a crime, a small one and your dole is now cut to pay your fines.


Anto has two kids and a wife, he now gets €100 a week since he is being fined due to his criminal behavior. Is Anto going to let his two children and wife starve? No. Anto is going to commit crimes to get money. He's going to go to KKV's house and rob his car.


Taking money off the poor is not going to help anyone. Let Anto have his €203 a week, it's not a life of envy.

That doesn't work, though. Anto can't break the law and not have a punishment due to him.

He's not going to break into my house and steal my car unless he was already a criminal anyway, in which case he would have broke in and stole my car regardless of whether he was fined or not.


Obviously, as is the case in real life at the moment, there's a level at which your welfare can't go lower (without your consent). So you're not leaving him with €100. He'd get maybe €170 or so. The idea is to punish him, not kill him.


But I'm not suggesting an overhaul of the legal system (in this thread), my main point is more that it's better to just let people claim €203 guilt-free, rather than engaging in the merry-go-round of forcing them into jobs they won't do, and dealing with them over and over. It'd save more than it'd cost, I'm sure.

cee_jay

This is not for State Benefits forum which is for discussion around personal issues on social welfare. Discussion on policy is for a different forum, maybe current affairs or something similar?