School reopenings -current plan WAS McHugh's plan

Rosita

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I don’t know what type of resource I need. I could spend my time making lovely music resources only to find out that actually I need recorded distance learning lessons or that I can’t do any singing or I can’t use the instruments.

I would say that anyone who creates recorded classes, loom videos etc. will find a use for them. No harm in putting one on in class - we've all know how students seem to pay more attention to something playing on a video than anything a teacher says. They also have the advantage of being permanent. Do them well once and they'll be useful for years to come.

Bobtheman

Rosita wrote: »

Parental responsibility is a interesting one. I read, it was Jennifer O'Connell in the Irish Times I'd say, in recent weeks the Education Act being quoted to point out that we were all partners in education and that parents and students have rights.

The difficulty with asserting rights is that some killjoy will point out the flipside which is responsibility. And funnily enough that is catered for in the law too - the constitution declares that "The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family", which in fairness in some of the
experience I have is a scary scary thought and the very reason many kids are doomed from the start.

As a parent with two children who have not been in school since March I totally get the issue. But if the "we are all partners" thing really holds true (as opposed to everything is down to the teachers) then I await with absolute breathless anticipation the chairperson of the Parents' Association coming into one of our meetings and giving us feedback on reasons for bad behaviours of kids, properly explained reasons for absences (maybe - like teachers have to do - with doctor's certs to prove that they are not lying).

There's about as much chance of the latter scenario unfolding as there is of anyone in public office mentioning that parents need to step up to the plate as well. Maybe if we are still in the same situation in five years time and it is apparent that the "new normal" is actually a way of life and not a slogan they will have no choice. But it'll probably take that for it to happen.

One of my pet projects is getting discipline back on the agenda. Too many difficult children- who know damn well what they are doing and are old enough to know so -are allowed wreck the education of others .
To tackle the issue we need withdrawal rooms where instead of suspension these kids can go and tick away at work.
They also need psychological support.
We also need constant training in discipline and class planning.
However it would have to be given by real teachers who have not been captured by the education doublespeak. ie all behavior is correct etc

Blondini

Bobtheman wrote: »

One of my pet projects is getting discipline back on the agenda. Too many difficult children- who know damn well what they are doing and are old enough to know so -are allowed wreck the education of others .
To tackle the issue we need withdrawal rooms where instead of suspension these kids can go and tick away at work.
They also need psychological support.
We also need constant training in discipline and class planning.
However it would have to be given by real teachers who have not been captured by the education doublespeak. ie all behavior is correct etc

Yup, we've had pods, lenses, wellbeing etc and next up is restorative practice..... usually lectured to us by ex teachers.

Nothing about discipline though.

Rosita

Bobtheman wrote: »

One of my pet projects is getting discipline back on the agenda. Too many difficult children- who know damn well what they are doing and are old enough to know so -are allowed wreck the education of others .
To tackle the issue we need withdrawal rooms where instead of suspension these kids can go and tick away at work.
They also need psychological support.
We also need constant training in discipline and class planning.
However it would have to be given by real teachers who have not been captured by the education doublespeak. ie all behavior is correct etc

It's a very difficult area as Principals will naturally tend to be active on stuff that's likely to be inspected. Hence the interest in obscure policies and valueless department campaigns, and the lack of interest in discipline.

The point in your last paragraph is on the money but unfortunately the people who end up giving these things are so anxious for advancement that they very quickly leave reality behind the door and start speaking in tongues.

Bobtheman

Rosita wrote: »

It's a very difficult area as Principals will naturally tend to be active on stuff that's likely to be inspected. Hence the interest in obscure policies and valueless department campaigns, and the lack of interest in discipline.

The point in your last paragraph is on the money but unfortunately the people who end up giving these things are so anxious for advancement that they very quickly leave reality behind the door and start speaking in tongues.

I rarely laugh out loud but the speaking in tongues bit did it for me.

Bobtheman

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-53274085
Interesting piece on how Zealand got it's cases down to o. They have no social distancing. Now

Mardy Bum

Blondini wrote: »

Yup, we've had pods, lenses, wellbeing etc and next up is restorative practice..... usually lectured to us by ex teachers.

Nothing about discipline though.

If social distancing is to be adhered to, I think it is obvious that suspensions will skyrocket. Realistically, the vast majority of principals will not be inclined to do this.

am_zarathustra

I'm a big believer in Restorative Practice but there is also an issue with lack of wrap around supports from outside agencies. Our most difficult kids have horrific home loves where parents are supplying the substances or encouraging behaviour that is destroying the kids chance at normality. I've been in awful conversations where we have to honestly think about suspension/expulsion in terms of whether we believe we have the resources in in house and in the community to help the student or if the problem is bigger than us. We would need a full time psychologist to deal with a lot of the issues effectively but you are completely right, the other students also deserve and education if this level of support is not forthcoming.

The lack of real psychological support is baffling given the cost of crime to the state. We have had brilliant success with kids expelled from other schools and students coming in from primary where we've been told there isn't a chance in hell of them finishing even a JC but there are kids needlessly falling through the crack for want of a couple of hours if intensive therapy to help them cope and to deal with the trauma of their upbringings.

I'd agree about the inspectorate.....disapline is seen primarily by them as a classroom issue. Few teacher, and usually though force of personality, can consistently manage behaviour in a class if it's known by the students there are no consequences! I've known some brilliant principals in this regard and some awful ones and the brilliant ones could be useless at every other aspect of their jobs and I would follow them to any school.
Balancing the parents, students and teachers viewpoints is tough but anyone in managment who can crack that will have people lining up to run programmes, help out with policies and jump onto any team going because they aren't completely exhausted and frustrated by the end of the day! It's the first thing and inspector should be looking for in a school, it's the bedrock of everything else

Bobtheman

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I'm a big believer in Restorative Practice but there is also an issue with lack of wrap around supports from outside agencies. Our most difficult kids have horrific home loves where parents are supplying the substances or encouraging behaviour that is destroying the kids chance at normality. I've been in awful conversations where we have to honestly think about suspension/expulsion in terms of whether we believe we have the resources in in house and in the community to help the student or if the problem is bigger than us. We would need a full time psychologist to deal with a lot of the issues effectively but you are completely right, the other students also deserve and education if this level of support is not forthcoming.

The lack of real psychological support is baffling given the cost of crime to the state. We have had brilliant success with kids expelled from other schools and students coming in from primary where we've been told there isn't a chance in hell of them finishing even a JC but there are kids needlessly falling through the crack for want of a couple of hours if intensive therapy to help them cope and to deal with the trauma of their upbringings.

I'd agree about the inspectorate.....disapline is seen primarily by them as a classroom issue. Few teacher, and usually though force of personality, can consistently manage behaviour in a class if it's known by the students there are no consequences! I've known some brilliant principals in this regard and some awful ones and the brilliant ones could be useless at every other aspect of their jobs and I would follow them to any school.
Balancing the parents, students and teachers viewpoints is tough but anyone in managment who can crack that will have people lining up to run programmes, help out with policies and jump onto any team going because they aren't completely exhausted and frustrated by the end of the day! It's the first thing and inspector should be looking for in a school, it's the bedrock of everything else

Anyway we won't get the extra supports .meanwhile a miniority destroys the education of a majority. And they are not all from bad homes just indifferent parents who don't like discipline.

rainbowtrout

Bobtheman wrote: »

I'm worried on two fronts. Firstly there were a lot of kids who did not engage with distance learning. They might continue to fall behind. That being said a lot of them and their parents must take responsibility. Not popular to say that - responsibility. But there are cases where the house didn't have broadband.
Secondly I fear that arrangements would be too akward to teach. Safe perhaps but not practical.
I really can't see enough subs being recruited.

From what I could see kids largely fell into four groups.

Those who had access, support at home and have the drive to work, and logged in every day and did what was asked of them. They'll largely be fine, even if online learning isn't their preferred method of learning.

Those who had poor/no access, but wanted to work and had support at home. They tried to find ways to keep up, often with help from school. I posted USB keys to one of my students who lives in the back of beyonds because their internet is non existent. His mother emailed back his work from her workplace. They will fall behind a little but the drive is there and they will catch up, but might need a little help.

Those who had access, but didn't bother logging in and didn't have parents on to them to do the work. Wide variety of kids in here from those who work normally but took the gamble that the JC/LC wouldn't happen and effectively took the rest of the year off, to those that don't have a whole heap of interest in school and the majority of their work consists of what they do in the classroom. Had lots of these with some parents claiming 6 weeks in that their child had no access to Teams etc, yet their child in the year below was logging in everyday....

And then the kids, usually from the disadvantaged backgrounds, no access, no support, very little motivation. They will struggle next year, some (in fifth year) may drop out.

rainbowtrout

Bobtheman wrote: »

One of my pet projects is getting discipline back on the agenda. Too many difficult children- who know damn well what they are doing and are old enough to know so -are allowed wreck the education of others .
To tackle the issue we need withdrawal rooms where instead of suspension these kids can go and tick away at work.
They also need psychological support.
We also need constant training in discipline and class planning.
However it would have to be given by real teachers who have not been captured by the education doublespeak. ie all behavior is correct etc

Ya I agree, the idea that the individual's right to education trumps the right of the other 29 in the room who want to be educated when that one individual chooses to be persistently disruptive is a farce.

rainbowtrout

Mardy Bum wrote: »

If social distancing is to be adhered to, I think it is obvious that suspensions will skyrocket. Realistically, the vast majority of principals will not be inclined to do this.

Hard to know, it's not purely an education issue anymore, it's a health one, and if there are students who won't comply and are willing to put at risk the health of staff or students whose health is compromised, it might paint a very different case.

r93kaey5p2izun

DDLETB have quite extensive documents and checklists prepared now for reopening. They are very detailed, but actually say little to nothing about the practicalities of safely teaching in a full classroom. Essentially they seem like a cover-your-arse to avoid a claim exercise with no really useful proposals. I will say that there are some expensive commitments on their behalf included, such as:

"hand washing, including hot water and soap, and sanitisation facilities will be provided at locations adjacent to the entry and exit points from the location."

Have other ETBs got similar? One would assume there should be some level of coordination and cooperation from ETBI.

Alex86Eire

Mardy Bum wrote: »

If social distancing is to be adhered to, I think it is obvious that suspensions will skyrocket. Realistically, the vast majority of principals will not be inclined to do this.

Surely social distancing will be gotten rid of before we go back? We'd be down to less than half capacity then.

rainbowtrout

Alex86Eire wrote: »

Surely social distancing will be gotten rid of before we go back? We'd be down to less than half capacity then.

We can social distance all we want at second level, but once the students go down town at lunch they are just going to hang out in groups anyway. I can't imagine how they would social distance on the corridors at breaktime either.

Mrsmum

rainbowtrout wrote: »

From what I could see kids largely fell into four groups.

Those who had access, support at home and have the drive to work, and logged in every day and did what was asked of them. They'll largely be fine, even if online learning isn't their preferred method of learning.

Those who had poor/no access, but wanted to work and had support at home. They tried to find ways to keep up, often with help from school. I posted USB keys to one of my students who lives in the back of beyonds because their internet is non existent. His mother emailed back his work from her workplace. They will fall behind a little but the drive is there and they will catch up, but might need a little help.

Those who had access, but didn't bother logging in and didn't have parents on to them to do the work. Wide variety of kids in here from those who work normally but took the gamble that the JC/LC wouldn't happen and effectively took the rest of the year off, to those that don't have a whole heap of interest in school and the majority of their work consists of what they do in the classroom. Had lots of these with some parents claiming 6 weeks in that their child had no access to Teams etc, yet their child in the year below was logging in everyday....

And then the kids, usually from the disadvantaged backgrounds, no access, no support, very little motivation. They will struggle next year, some (in fifth year) may drop out.

You forgot another group, the kids who have every advantage but who have their parents hearts broken because they just will not engage properly online no matter what rewards offered/punishments given. No kid admits to each other they are working really hard so you have them supporting each other to do the minimum. These are the children my friends talk about and there has been unholy war in homes trying to get them to take online learning seriously. You can lead a horse to water and all that. One parent told me her relationship with her child had gotten so bad she had to choose whether to keep fighting or just accept the situation and love him anyway. Not easy. And she would have no lack of company in that situation. Small children you can control, teenagers not so much.

Alex86Eire

rainbowtrout wrote: »

We can social distance all we want at second level

If its 2m I can have 8/30 students in front of me, 1m I can have 12. We have fixed benches so cannot move desks. Social distancing won't work for me anyway.

Rosita

Alex86Eire wrote: »

Surely social distancing will be gotten rid of before we go back? We'd be down to less than half capacity then.

Do you mean that the need to social distance might be gone in five or six weeks because Covid-19 is gone. Or are you saying that schools won't go back at all until social distancing is gone which might be years down the road?

Alex86Eire

Rosita wrote: »

Do you mean that the need to social distance might be gone in five or six weeks because Covid-19 is gone. Or are you saying that schools won't go back at all until social distancing is gone which might be years down the road?

Eh neither...

I would guess that the guidelines would say that schools should implement social distancing if/where possible. I don't think we'll be told that students have to be 1 m away from each other and their teacher.
We won't be able to go back fully if we have to social distance.

Rosita

Alex86Eire wrote: »

Eh neither...

I would guess that the guidelines would say that schools should implement social distancing if/where possible. I don't think we'll be told that students have to be 1 m away from each other and their teacher.
We won't be able to go back fully if we have to social distance.

But in effect that would be no social distancing. Once you put 30+ in a classroom social distancing cannot happen. Not saying it’s good or bad, right or wrong, but if there are not specific guidelines regarding what gap constitutes social distancing then there is no social distancing. You might as well say don’t drink and drive if/where possible.

shesty

rainbowtrout wrote: »

We can social distance all we want at second level, but once the students go down town at lunch they are just going to hang out in groups anyway. I can't imagine how they would social distance on the corridors at breaktime either.

To be fair that would probably have to be one of the mitigation measures in schools - no town at lunchtime.

My old secondary school, you weren't allowed out at lunch unless you were physically resident in the town and walking home to your house for lunch and that was easily monitored.

rainbowtrout

shesty wrote: »

To be fair that would probably have to be one of the mitigation measures in schools - no town at lunchtime.

My old secondary school, you weren't allowed out at lunch unless you were physically resident in the town and walking home to your house for lunch and that was easily monitored.

Mightn't really be a choice. Nowhere to allow them to socially distance in the school. Irish schools aren't set up for the most part with canteen style facilities. Only new builds in the last 10-15 years have that.

History Queen

shesty wrote: »

To be fair that would probably have to be one of the mitigation measures in schools - no town at lunchtime.

My old secondary school, you weren't allowed out at lunch unless you were physically resident in the town and walking home to your house for lunch and that was easily monitored.

Our secondary school is dependent on senior students going down town at lunchtime to help alleviate the overcrowding in our corridors. Morning breaktime is painful with all students in corridors and limited social spaces, not too bad on a fine day but when it's raining it is genuinely uncomfortable trying to make your way around the school.

Obviously covid restrictions will take precedence this year but it will raise another set of issues for us (and I'msure we aren't alone) , we are looking at staggered breaktimes but haven't found the right solution yet.

Mardy Bum

shesty wrote: »

To be fair that would probably have to be one of the mitigation measures in schools - no town at lunchtime.

My old secondary school, you weren't allowed out at lunch unless you were physically resident in the town and walking home to your house for lunch and that was easily monitored.

The reason kids are let out is because schools are not big enough. Some schools don't even have canteens.

shesty

Yep, all fair enough points.My secondary school had no canteen facility at all - still doesn't.They just wouldn't allow you out of the grounds at lunch.School hall, only a couple of classrooms and outside, basically, were used for lunch.They staggered lunches, half the school were on "early", half on "late" and only specified areas were used for eating in to contain the noise.It wasn't a small school in numbers, or a new building either, that was back in the mid 90s and it had about 800 pupils + at the time.

It's very tricky, I won't deny that, I am just suggesting it will probably have to be a measure that is considered for some schools to contain lunchtime movement.That's all.

r93kaey5p2izun

My school had no canteen facilities. You just had to stay in your classroom and eat there. Not allowed out on the corridors either. No going out of the school either. No outside space either. Not ideal but it can be done.

Alex86Eire

Rosita wrote: »

But in effect that would be no social distancing. Once you put 30+ in a classroom social distancing cannot happen. Not saying it’s good or bad, right or wrong, but if there are not specific guidelines regarding what gap constitutes social distancing then there is no social distancing. You might as well say don’t drink and drive if/where possible.

Yes. I said originally they'd have to do away with social distancing.

Rosita

Alex86Eire wrote: »

Yes. I said originally they'd have to do away with social distancing.

I'd imagine we might be years not weeks away from social distancing being deemed unnecessary.

deiseindublin

Fellow educators - this is a Teaching and Lecturing thread, to my mind, for teachers and lecturers.

Please stop engaging with fools that have no idea what they're talking about. They have ZERO clue of stuff that happened two months ago, much less anything else about our education system.

Ignore them and hopefully they'll rock off to After Hours where they'll be welcomed with open arms.

bren2001

I disagreed with a lot of people in here around the hysteria relating to the LC going/not going ahead. I wouldn't agree with everything being said now but it's absolute madness that the Department have not issued some guidelines with schools set to reopen in 5 weeks. While it is an ever changing environment, it seems relatively obvious that they have to assume worst case scenario and outline how they would tackle 2m distancing. If it's reduced, great!

The Universities have done it but it's taken weeks/months to arrive at our conclusions. There are still plenty of hurdles to overcome but we've 2 full months to iron out those issues. We've put contingencies in place for a wide variety of possibilities.

Fintain O'Toole had a decent piece in the IT today on it:
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-lack-of-preparation-for-reopening-schools-is-terrifying-1.4309042#.XxZ92LtG010.twitter

or just this post:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114091320&postcount=6365