School reopenings -current plan WAS McHugh's plan

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

A lot of people seem to have very little faith in students and their ability to queue. They have to queue everywhere now. Why should they behave any differently coming into a school.

Kids do behave differently in school. And I have not seen 700 kids queuing outside Tesco or football training for that matter. In my school due to lack of space it will be extremely difficult. Not saying it cannot be done to to imply it's seamlessly easy is wrong I'd say.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

I think it's harder than you might imagine.

Take this for example: We are reopening schools on the basis that national cases do not go above 30 per day.

Is it tenable to close schools in Kerry and Waterford if the 30 cases are in Cavan and Monaghan? There are so many variables that no government is going to stand over a gun-to-the-head comment like that where a journalist is going apoplectic saying "but you said...................".

And socially distanced queues? Where? Is there space to queue 700 students like that? If it's outdoor what about when the weather is dire? And what about the latecomers wandering around the school? It's easy to pick holes in this.

Leaving aside specific details like that, essentially the government is going to have to square the circle where they are on the one hand advising that no more than 50 people can gather in a very large church, or 200 outdoor in a very large GAA ground with a scenario where they are expected to put 30 teenagers into a relatively tiny space. They have crashed the economy on the basis of social distancing and now have to organise their own house in contravention of all those decisions. I'd say that's difficult.

And PPE, visors etc.......................we know that this is readily available and sourceable, do we? Not so sure.

And all being organised at a time when it is anticipated that cases are likely to be rising, and the country has never threatened to get to zero cases.

I would think organising all of that in a situation where every single thing you do will be criticised to the hilt by somebody is actually quite difficult.

I am giving the Minister the benefit of the doubt and time will tell but at the moment I am glad that she is reticent about giving out details that she does not have. The alternative is Simon Harris's constant "we are going back to school any day now" updates.

At least let us acknowledge the difficulty of the challenge.

In my school if a student is late they have to get a stamp in their journal in the office before they can come to class. No stamp, they are sent back down to the office.

Same can apply here. Late student has temperature taken, and gets a stamp. No stamp, no entry.

I already said a few days ago that if there are clusters it’s more likely that individual schools would be closed for a couple of weeks rather than shut down the country.

You also make it sound like the government crashed the economy on purpose. They didn’t. Half the world went into lockdown. If you don’t put a number on outdoor gatherings then you will have thousands congregating. Schools are far from ideal places to reopen but our numbers are fixed, unlike the attendance at a gaa match or a funeral.

grind gremlin

I wonder if it might be useful to have two separate threads... one for primary and one for secondary. The challenges posed to both are vastly different in many ways....

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

In my school if a student is late they have to get a stamp in their journal in the office before they can come to class. No stamp, they are sent back down to the office.

Same can apply here. Late student has temperature taken, and gets a stamp. No stamp, no entry.

I already said a few days ago that if there are clusters it’s more likely that individual schools would be closed for a couple of weeks rather than shut down the country.

You also make it sound like the government crashed the economy on purpose. They didn’t. Half the world went into lockdown. If you don’t put a number on outdoor gatherings then you will have thousands congregating. Schools are far from ideal places to reopen but our numbers are fixed, unlike the attendance at a gaa match or a funeral.

Yeah, the late stamp thing works in my school too for about the first three weeks of September but then the hassle of facilitating the few habitually late people becomes too much and they end up wandering around, hiding in the toilet until the next class etc. while management are just too busy to man-mark such people to the detriment of everything else. You sound as if you think it'll be just school as normal.

I have no idea why you are explaining to me the need for restrictions on numbers at outdoor and indoor gatherings. I never challenged that. I simply said that it creates a context for gatherings and numbers which makes schools inoperable. And the government will have to grapple with that and explain to say McDonald's why they cannot have 100 kids in their restaurants simultaneously while schools can have bigger gatherings in the same space.

Now maybe a large hypocritical double-think fudge will be the answer. But maybe not.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

Yeah, the late stamp thing works in my school too for about the first three weeks of September but then the hassle of facilitating the few habitually late people becomes too much and they end up wandering around, hiding in the toilet until the next class etc. while management are just too busy to man-mark such people to the detriment of everything else. You sound as if you think it'll be just school as normal.

I have no idea why you are explaining to me the need for restrictions on numbers at outdoor and indoor gatherings. I never challenged that. I simply said that it creates a context for gatherings and numbers which makes schools inoperable. And the government will have to grapple with that and explain to say McDonald's why they cannot have 100 kids in their restaurants simultaneously while schools can have bigger gatherings in the same space.

Now maybe a large hypocritical double-think fudge will be the answer. But maybe not.

I'm not saying it will be perfect, but you seem to only see problems rather than trying to look for solutions. Some things can be mandated at national level such as the provision of hand wash stations, PPE, cleaners etc, but some will have to be done at local level to suit the needs of a particular school, and often on an ad-hoc basis as a situation arises.

Rosita

I'm laughing to myself at the thought of kids' temperatures being taken. It'll be gas chasing the usual suspects for the signed permission slips especially if they realise that they cannot be allowed into school without it but cannot really be sent home either!!

It'll be interesting to see if we actually get any teaching time in the autumn after all the red tape which will envelop us.

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'm not saying it will be perfect, but you seem to only see problems rather than trying to look for solutions. .

That's probably fair comment but I don't really see solutions to be honest. I think the gap between social distancing policy in other areas and what will be required in schools, for normal service, is unbridgeable.

Rosita

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I’m so torn on this. On the one hand I’m a parent and I want my child back at school and like every other parent my childcare is planned around the school. I’m sick of teaching online. I want to be back in school with my students teaching and learning properly and not some farce of blended learning

However I also cannot agree with the ridiculous scenario that would mean we would be the only work place in the country where the rules don’t apply? What makes us immune that we don’t need PPE or social distancing? I can’t go to the hairdressers without social distancing and PPE but I can get up close and personal with 30 students at a time....

This was posted on 13th June and is still very valid.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

I'm laughing to myself at the thought of kids' temperatures being taken. It'll be gas chasing the usual suspects for the signed permission slips especially if they realise that they cannot be allowed into school without it but cannot really be sent home either!!

It'll be interesting to see if we actually get any teaching time in the autumn after all the red tape which will envelop us.

Of course they can be sent home; health and safety. In the same way that you have to wear a mask on public transport and in shops. I haven't seen anyone walking around the shops in my local town without a mask this week. I'm sure there are people out there who aren't compliant, but it would seem that the vast majority are.

The student I spoke to this morning didn't have a problem with her temperature being taken, she just accepted it as something that has to be done for her to enter the dancing class.

You're the one laughing at what are becoming standard procedures in some places and as I said, looking for problems rather than solutions.

wirelessdude01

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Of course they can be sent home; health and safety. In the same way that you have to wear a mask on public transport and in shops. I haven't seen anyone walking around the shops in my local town without a mask this week. I'm sure there are people out there who aren't compliant, but it would seem that the vast majority are.

The student I spoke to this morning didn't have a problem with her temperature being taken, she just accepted it as something that has to be done for her to enter the dancing class.

You're the one laughing at what are becoming standard procedures in some places and as I said, looking for problems rather than solutions.

Unless it is contained in law then the school is pretty much pi$$ing in the wind.

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Of course they can be sent home; health and safety. In the same way that you have to wear a mask on public transport and in shops. I haven't seen anyone walking around the shops in my local town without a mask this week. I'm sure there are people out there who aren't compliant, but it would seem that the vast majority are.

The student I spoke to this morning didn't have a problem with her temperature being taken, she just accepted it as something that has to be done for her to enter the dancing class.

You're the one laughing at what are becoming standard procedures in some places and as I said, looking for problems rather than solutions.

I have no idea what people wearing masks or an individual not having an issue with her temperature being taken has got to do with the experiences I have had in my school. It was an observation based on my experience of a number of students not another front in an argument.

grind gremlin

Unfortunately in primary school it frequently happens that a parent does not pick up the phone when the school calls. I’ve had obviously unwell children dropped to school in the past.

It might appear that we are looking for problems but I think it’s important that the ‘what if’s’ are considered too. We need to be prepped for every eventuality.

My day in school is already spent risk assessing on a constant basis...... that was before we threw a pandemic into the mix. The nature of children’s behaviour is often unpredictable. Every parent knows that from watching their own children. When we are dealing with up to and above 500 young children and twice as many adults (between parents and staff) the possibilities are endless for things to not go as planned.

Parents will be incredibly anxious when they leave their children in our care. We need to have examined every eventuality thoroughly to ensure things run smoothly and safely in Sept.
My gut instinct is that the sheer numbers involved will make it incredibly difficult.

I remember a few months ago that we were all praised when close contact numbers fell into single digits and then under 5...... what will happen when September comes and Secondary Teachers have been in close contact with upwards of 150 students a day.

Rosita

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Unless it is contained in law then the school is pretty much pi$$ing in the wind.

And schools are official Ireland writ large. The fear of the phone call governs all. My Principal cannot break wind unless he has a written policy or a permission slip on it.

Rosita

grind gremlin wrote: »

Unfortunately in primary school it frequently happens that a parent does not pick up the phone when the school calls.

Yeah, in my school it'd be a fairly well recognised phenomenon for parents to very deliberately not answer. It can be part of an on-going war with school's attempts to get their kid to toe the line. But can also be "I'm not going to drop everything when you in the school are obliged to supervise them anyway".

pandoraj09

In my school the "sick" card is played regularly to avoid a class test, avail of half price highlights in the local salon or get in the queue for the new Fortnite game. They show me a text on their phone allegedly from a parent saying to tell the school they have permission to go home. Normally I send them back to class to see if they "recover". What happens now?? Guidelines very much needed for us both on a national scale from the Government and also at a local level from our own schools. At the moment in my school we've no senior management for next year. Tricky times ahead for sure.

byhookorbycrook

On the taking of temperatures, what staff member supervises this ?I’ve heard of parents giving children Calpol on the way to school in the car .

Staggered drop offs will mean more staff - In primary , you will need someone to collect from the drop off line and bring the child to their teacher . If we are doing “ pods” of children and staff , that’s going to be problematic.

Shared SNAs are going to find things to exceptionally difficult as well.

Staggered home times in theory should be easier as the infant day is shorter - but what happens to older siblings at that stage ?

Yard supervision will require extra adults as well - and again this is going to be difficult in “ pods .”

Summer works scheme funding should have been made available in May , most schools need to upgrade bathrooms at the very least .

If you don’t allow a child who hasn’t been temperature checked in and that child decides to head down town etc. a school would be in serious bother .

Schools will certainly open, but hard to see how they can reopen with anything like full capacity .

Much of the above comes down to funding and resources . It’s been obvious to most of those working in schools what is needed , but the DES are going for the cheapest and easiest option.

People who aren’t working in the sector don’t seem to realize there aren’t spare staff stacked in a store room somewhere to do all of this .

Polka_Dot

Had to laugh at this quote from Leo Varadkar:

He said:“We want to get all the details right before we share them widely” because what would undermine confidence is to come out with a set of details and plans today and then change them in a week’s time or ten days’ time”.

“Mixed messages and changing messages isn’t a good strategy,” he said.

Not that I disagree, but something called the "Leaving Cert" comes to mind...

Icyseanfitz

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

On the taking of temperatures, what staff member supervises this ?I’ve heard of parents giving children Calpol on the way to school in the car .

Staggered drop offs will mean more staff - In primary , you will need someone to collect from the drop off line and bring the child to their teacher . If we are doing “ pods” of children and staff , that’s going to be problematic.

Shared SNAs are going to find things to exceptionally difficult as well.

Staggered home times in theory should be easier as the infant day is shorter - but what happens to older siblings at that stage ?

Yard supervision will require extra adults as well - and again this is going to be difficult in “ pods .”

Summer works scheme funding should have been made available in May , most schools need to upgrade bathrooms at the very least .

If you don’t allow a child who hasn’t been temperature checked in and that child decides to head down town etc. a school would be in serious bother .

Schools will certainly open, but hard to see how they can reopen with anything like full capacity .

Much of the above comes down to funding and resources . It’s been obvious to most of those working in schools what is needed , but the DES are going for the cheapest and easiest option.

People who aren’t working in the sector don’t seem to realize there aren’t spare staff stacked in a store room somewhere to do all of this .

As a post primary SNA that works with students in every year I have absolutely no idea how I am going to get back to doing my job with social distancing etc involved. 1st and 2nd year (hell even some 5th years) students often need you to be right next to them sharing their book and helping. We also do first aid duties so get called when any kid is feeling unwell, how is that going to work.

Beginning to get very anxious again at the thought of it to be honest, family members are high risk, and the stories of prolonged side effects of covid-19 also have me quite worried for my own health.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

I have no idea what people wearing masks or an individual not having an issue with her temperature being taken has got to do with the experiences I have had in my school. It was an observation based on my experience of a number of students not another front in an argument.

Things have changed a lot in society since we left school in March. Protection from corona virus overrides a lot of other things. I never thought I’d see the day that the leaving cert would be cancelled and students would be given a predicted grade but it happened.

I never thought I’d see people queuing outside shops without a fuss but it’s happened.

I never once considered living in a world where I couldn’t sit in my local having a drink without concern about how many people were in there but it’s happened.

Students who don’t typically play by the rules in school are returning to a very different set of circumstances this year where health protection overrides most other things. Don’t see why you can’t see that.

Rosita

Polka_Dot wrote: »

Had to laugh at this quote from Leo Varadkar:

He said:“We want to get all the details right before we share them widely” because what would undermine confidence is to come out with a set of details and plans today and then change them in a week’s time or ten days’ time”.

“Mixed messages and changing messages isn’t a good strategy,” he said.

Not that I disagree, but something called the "Leaving Cert" comes to mind...

I am concerned that there is pressure coming for an early decision which would be made at a very delicate time in terms of emergence from lockdown and the associated threats. But could there be a less credible commentator than Mr By Hook or by Crook himself?

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Students who don’t typically play by the rules in school are returning to a very different set of circumstances this year where health protection overrides most other things. Don’t see why you can’t see that.

This isn't about me though. One student I can think of has been in school on time just a handful of times in his four years. I will be surprised if Covid-19 encourages better time-keeping with him. Or makes him more inclined to not lose forms or to come in with them filled out. In my experience such students don't change. But time will tell I suppose. Maybe Covid-19 is the silver bullet to change him. But I've a feeling someone like him will welcome the uncertainty, the chaos and disruption to routine, and excuse to absent himself for the flimsiest reason.

SligoBrewer

33 days till school reopens.
Nothing from that debate strikes any confidence in me that children will be in buildings.

Rosita

Virgin Media news reporting that the announcement will be a one-metre social distancing regime in schools. Not sure what the precise impact of that would be but presumably it will halve class sizes.

wirelessdude01

Rosita wrote: »

Virgin Media news reporting that the announcement will be a one-metre social distancing regime in schools. Not sure what the precise impact of that would be but presumably it will halve class sizes.

Would you happen to have a link? Had a quick look and can't find one.

Rosita

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Would you happen to have a link? Had a quick look and can't find one.

It was said by a reporter on the 5.30 news on TV.

But I notice Varadker doing his usual double speak (RTÉ website) where schools must reopen (which is fine) but "it won't be business as usual" (now WTF does that mean? Why speak in riddles and half-speak? )

Can they not just stop talking and say when they'll publish guidelines rather than peddling different stories every time they open their mouths? I have a certain qualified regard for the Minister for Education who actually seems to be awaiting actual information before commenting.

wirelessdude01

Rosita wrote: »

It was said by a reporter on the 5.30 news on TV.

Not mentioned on RTE news or so far on primetime.

Rosita

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Not mentioned on RTE news or so far on primetime.

The reporter mentioned it very much as an aside. Education was not discussed at length. But it was an interesting and quite likely well informed aside.

theblackstuff

loads of talk about schools, but what about school transport, plenty of secondary and primary school kids get buses to and from school, what plans for these buses. Social distance in school is one thing but the buses to and from school??

Mardy Bum

theblackstuff wrote: »

loads of talk about schools, but what about school transport, plenty of secondary and primary school kids get buses to and from school, what plans for these buses. Social distance in school is one thing but the buses to and from school??

It will either be a free for all or one year group a day at this stage by the looks of things. FG will push for a free for all.

rainbowtrout

theblackstuff wrote: »

loads of talk about schools, but what about school transport, plenty of secondary and primary school kids get buses to and from school, what plans for these buses. Social distance in school is one thing but the buses to and from school??

Are there limits on how many people can use public transport at the moment? As in a max number that can be on a bus? Or is it just your must wear a mask’? Can imagine that they’ll just apply that rule to school buses.