School reopenings -current plan WAS McHugh's plan

deiseindublin

Joe Kane wrote: »

My child has a medical condition where if she contracts Covid it will be curtains. It'll be interesting to see if she and others in similar situations are going to be left behind and forgotten about on Monday or when ever the Government unveils their plans.

I'm sorry to read that Joe Kane. It must be a huge worry. I really would hope that DES puts in some support for children in this unfortunate position, although I know when we have kids getting one on one hours it's a pittance.

wirelessdude01

lulublue22 wrote: »

I would be expecting SET to row in here. I would liken any child not able to return to school due to serious health concerns as a child with an additional need. I would expect the principal to allocate such children to the SET timetable and an online learning platform - edmodo , seesaw, google teams set up. Now the SET team will not be able to be online supporting such children all day but I would expect that a set time be allocated for answering parental questions. Work needs to be set and corrected with a focus on a stream lined curriculum. Parents will need to accept that the level of intervention/ support will not be comparable to if the child is in school all day. It is I know a big ask but there is a difference between an immunocompromised child unable to attend and a parent not happy to send there otherwise healthy child to school. Unfortunately for those patents I don’t see a feasible alternative.

Interesting thoughts. I know SET is very much valued in our school and I would highly doubt the above would be allowed to happen unless directed to by a circular.

deiseindublin

Rosita wrote: »

The difficulty in opening I mean is the practical things like timetable and organising classes if there's any suggestion of social distancing. I'd imagine that will be a big challenge. After that presumably it's just keeping the show on the road. Hopefully anyway. Would hate to go back to the post March set-up.

I don't think there could be a second level P/DP in the country that has their timetable done, how could you, it'd be like throwing darts blindfolded.

r93kaey5p2izun

Surely a child unable to attend at all, longterm, on medical grounds should be entitled to Home Tuition? ie a dedicated 1:1 tutor, whether that happens face to face or online.

lulublue22

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Interesting thoughts. I know SET is very much valued in our school and I would highly doubt the above would be allowed to happen unless directed to by a circular.

I’d argue very strongly that such children in the current pandemic have as much right to SET as any other child who qualifies. I’m not talking about the slightly asthmatic child who is asthmatic for PE but belts around the yard at break no bother( I say that as the parent of an asthmatic child) or those children who are healthy but whose parents are too concerned / anxious about covid. There simply is not the resources there to accommodate such children. But for a genuine high risk / immunocompromised child most definitely. I would have no problem arguing the case with the principal either.

am_zarathustra

SET will not be that useful to a kid in 5th or 6th year, you need subject experts. In fact very little can be covered even by the end of 1st year by someone who isn't a subject expert. This might work at primary but won't work in secondary!

lulublue22

Simeon Mysterious Minibike wrote: »

Surely a child unable to attend at all, longterm, on medical grounds should be entitled to Home Tuition? ie a dedicated 1:1 tutor, whether that happens face to face or online.

I honestly don’t think that will happen. I may be wrong but I just can’t see it due to cost and shortage of teachers at primary. Unless cocooning teachers continue to teach online and groups of children are allocated to each teacher. That I think will take too much organising and forward planning to implement.

lulublue22

am_zarathustra wrote: »

SET will not be that useful to a kid in 5th or 6th year, you need subject experts. In fact very little can be covered even by the end of 1st year by someone who isn't a subject expert. This might work at primary but won't work in secondary!

Was answering a query specific to primary and which would work at primary level.

ETA I would expect different guidelines for primary and secondary given the differences between the two.

r93kaey5p2izun

lulublue22 wrote: »

I honestly don’t think that will happen. I may be wrong but I just can’t see it due to cost and shortage of teachers at primary. Unless cocooning teachers continue to teach online and groups of children are allocated to each teacher. That I think will take too much organising and forward planning to implement.

But Home Tuition already exists for children who cannot attend school on medical grounds. There are now more children who may fall in that category. Will criteria be changed to exclude them?

Yes, there will surely be a struggle for parents to get tutors. But that's a separate issue.

am_zarathustra

Home tuition is a good solution but really struggles to recruit, same issues as sub work. Subject specificity is usually sacrificed too unfortunately. We've had a couple of students who have used it, it's certainly better than nothing but it's generally one qualified tutor as opposed to the 8-10 subject experts they would get in school.

I really hope, for parents sake, that students who have to stay at home have some sort of centralised online learning. Again, immumocompromised staff or even older staff recently retired might have been given a timetable of students to engage with online. It would give order to both the teacher and students day. With time, this could have been organised but I can't see the department taking on anything that requires this level of planning unfortunately.

It's a pity, it's such a worry for parents in a situation that they are generally in because fate has already been unkind

lulublue22

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Home tuition is a good solution but really struggles to recruit, same issues as sub work. Subject specificity is usually sacrificed too unfortunately. We've had a couple of students who have used it, it's certainly better than nothing but it's generally one qualified tutor as opposed to the 8-10 subject experts they would get in school.

I really hope, for parents sake, that students who have to stay at home have some sort of centralised online learning. Again, immumocompromised staff or even older staff recently retired might have been given a timetable of students to engage with online. It would give order to both the teacher and students day. With time, this could have been organised but I can't see the department taking on anything that requires this level of planning unfortunately.

It's a pity, it's such a worry for parents in a situation that they are generally in because fate has already been unkind

I think immunocompromised / recently retired staff continuing on with online learning fir those who are unable to attend school due to serious health concerns would have been a great idea but I think at this stage it is far too late to start organising.

wirelessdude01

lulublue22 wrote: »

I think immunocompromised / recently retired staff continuing on with online learning fir those who are unable to attend school due to serious health concerns would have been a great idea but I think at this stage it is far too late to start organising.

So who does it then?

lulublue22

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So who does it then?

At this stage as Ive already said I think it will need to be picked up by the SET team in primary. For secondary no idea. Any road it’s all academic till Mon when all will be revealed.

am_zarathustra

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So who does it then?

I honestly don't know. There are so many issues like this at both primary and secondary! The president of the INTO was on Primetime last night and he said the recommendation was 120 pages long, maybe there is this level of detail but I'm not confident. Some of the things that could have been organised over the summer have been left far too late

History Queen

just posted this in Coronavirus thread but probably more suitable here;

Forsa trade union have issued a statement regarding the opening of schools... sounds positive. I don't know a huge amount about them as a union, any SNAs on here offer any insight? Can we take this as a positive indication that the Dept actually listened to legitimate concerns?

According to this social distancing will exist in schools

https://www.forsa.ie/n...n-schools-reopening/

eagle eye

What do parents with underlying conditions do? Are they expected to risk their own lives to send their kids to school? Has this even been considered? It all seems to have been put together in a rush.
How can you trace quickly if something happens in a primary school?
I can just imagine Billy going to school the day after meeting his uncle Jimmy who lives in England and has decided to come home for a break.
We don't know what every kids parents are like.
Would you be able to forgive yourself if your kid ended up with PIMS?

brookers

lulublue22 wrote: »

I think normal procedures will apply - marked absent and notification to ewb when 20 days accrued. Though realistically I’ve never seen them do anything and I’ve often had children fall into that bracket.
You do realise that there will be no educational provision if you vol opt out of a school return ? It’s simply not feasible to have parents pick and chose. Unless your child is in some way immunocompromised.

Yes gets very bad chest infections, heart surgery, asthma, a couple of the other children in the class are even worse.

am_zarathustra

I hope temperatures are being checked on the way into school. It's a simple check, time-consuming but simple and a fever is the most common symptom of Covid nothing we do will be 100% but 5 things that are 70% effective is the way to go.

I've already priced scan thermometers for the school!

The Forsa statement looks good if it's all true, they were at all the meetings so they would know hopefully!!

brookers

eagle eye wrote: »

What do parents with underlying conditions do? Are they expected to risk their own lives to send their kids to school? Has this even been considered? It all seems to have been put together in a rush.
How can you trace quickly if something happens in a primary school?
I can just imagine Billy going to school the day after meeting his uncle Jimmy who lives in England and has decided to come home for a break.
We don't know what every kids parents are like.
Would you be able to forgive yourself if your kid ended up with PIMS?

Some of the parents in our class would do a lot of travelling with their jobs, they are the ones who tend to send in their children sick too. Although in fairness the principal has really cracked down on that. But you just dont know, there are also people out there who still think this is just a bit of a cold and rant and rave on twitter obout get the kids back to school. I really not looking forward to this autumn/winter....

lulublue22

brookers wrote: »

Yes gets very bad chest infections, heart surgery, asthma, a couple of the other children in the class are even worse.

I’m sorry to hear that. It’s a very difficult time for parents of children with health concerns. Hopefully Mon’s announcement will bring some clarity to the situation.

SligoBrewer

am_zarathustra wrote: »

The Forsa statement looks good if it's all true, they were at all the meetings so they would know hopefully!!

There were no meetings or deals to be agreed, just submissions from unions.
There's no way that social distancing can align with what was said today by the DES and Govt,

mirrorwall14

This looks better. But I still don’t see how it translates to full opening at second level

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/government-plan-to-reopen-schools-set-to-cost-hundreds-of-millions-of-euro-1.4313072?mode=amp&localLinksEnabled=false&utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Government+plan+to+reopen+schools+set+to+cost+hundreds+of+millions+of+euro&utm_campaign=morning_briefing_digest


Hundreds of additional teachers, funding for enhanced cleaning regimes and curriculum changes form the centrepiece of a school reopening package worth hundreds of millions of euro to be unveiled on Monday.


...

The package of measures is understood to include:

* Extra funding for hundreds of additional substitute teachers and support staff due to an anticipated increase in sick leave. Surplus primary school teachers may also be allowed work at second level in key subjects on a temporary basis;

* Curriculum changes to take account of lost learning, including greater choice of questions for students in State exams;

* Enhancing cleaning and hygiene routines, with hand sanitiser and personal protective equipment to be centrally procured and distributed to schools;

* Administrative supports for school principals to help plan for school reopening;

* A major emphasis on student wellbeing and enhanced access to guidance and other supports;

* A €75 million fund to allow schools to reconfigure their classrooms and toilet facilities over the coming weeks to allow for physical distancing of students.

Rosita

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

This looks better. But I still don’t see how it translates to full opening at second level

.

I would assume that "full opening" is an elastic term. The government has to claim it's full opening despite what others might infer from the term. Social distancing, roughly speaking, would probably mean double the space and double the staff required in schools overnight.

School is a unique environment given the necessity for bodies on the ground to ensure kids are not unsupervised so it's hugely personnel intensive. And the more people the more space required. Many schools don't have space for even a sudden surge of prefab building. And even if they had all that takes time.

So I would be surprised if full opening as we would understand it, that is to say all students in school all of the time under the current school hours, is feasible. I would take the use of the term by officials and government as one which is politically necessary rather than one which squares with our traditional understanding of the phrase.

mirrorwall14

Rosita wrote: »

I would assume that "full opening" is an elastic term. The government has to claim it's full opening despite what others might infer from the term. Social distancing, roughly speaking, would probably mean double the space and double the staff required in schools overnight.

School is a unique environment given the necessity for bodies on the ground to ensure kids are not unsupervised so it's hugely personnel intensive. And the more people the more space required. Many schools don't have space for even a sudden surge of prefab building. And even if they had all that takes time.

So I would be surprised if full opening as we would understand it, that is to say all students in school all of the time under the current school hours, is feasible. I would take the use of the term by officials and government as one which is politically necessary rather than one which squares with our traditional understanding of the phrase.

That was what I figured until the Times yesterday quoted Michael Martin as saying ‘fully reopen schools to all pupils on a full-time basis’

Rosita

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

That was what I figured until the Times yesterday quoted Michael Martin as saying ‘fully reopen schools to all pupils on a full-time basis’

Again I would still assume that it's a phrase that the government will stick to while pointing to the x billions which they have made available. But in reality at local level schools will have to cut their cloth to measure. At least that's my assumption.

Obviously some people would see that as hugely negative outlook and "tut, tut" about the kids needing to be back at school. But of course that's a different discussion and attempts to muddle the two completely miss the point. Practical reality and what can actually happen is another matter.

I'm thinking of my own school which has 700+ students and 50 teachers. The staffroom, meeting rooms, classrooms - either in size or number, toilets, corridors, are not adequate at the moment not to mind with any element - however weasel-worded it might be - of social distancing. I think if the Taoiseach was asked to explain the term "fully opening" with specific reference to a school such as mine he would struggle. Or at least I would struggle anyway.

But, as I have said here recently, people say things like "kids need an education" (as if the rest if us don't think so!), but we just might need to adjust the thinking that this can be delivered only through 28 hours a week face to face contact.

Ironically it probably will be the people who have the killer answer to the "tell me about a change you made" question in an interview who might struggle most with the new normal because many are administrators rather than innovators in reality.

km79

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40021358.html

This article made me angry and sad in equal measure
The insulation at the start is fairly obvious too . Many others stepped during the crisis but teachers didn’t
Depressing

Rosita

km79 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40021358.html

This article made me angry and sad in equal measure
The insulation at the start is fairly obvious too . Many others stepped during the crisis but teachers didn’t
Depressing

Some of that is laughable. So the Examiner is "locked out of its office"........why? Apart from the fact that journalists can work quite well from home, why can't they go back to the office when he wants schools to go back?

And the one about health care workers dying is farcically cheap in this context, as if it's somehow a measure of commitment rather than a personal tragedy. Separate issues anyway. Gardaí get shot by scumbags but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be masks worn on public transport.

Mardy Bum

Rosita wrote: »

Some of that is laughable. So the Examiner is "locked out of its office"........why? Apart from the fact that journalists can work quite well from home, why can't they go back to the office when he wants schools to go back?

And the one about health care workers dying is farcically cheap in this context, as if it's somehow a measure of commitment rather than a personal tragedy. Separate issues anyway. Gardaí get shot by scumbags but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be masks worn on public transport.

Some Irish journalists would not look out of place on Fox News. Propagandists are best ignored.

Bobtheman

Rosita wrote: »

Some of that is laughable. So the Examiner is "locked out of its office"........why? Apart from the fact that journalists can work quite well from home, why can't they go back to the office when he wants schools to go back?

And the one about health care workers dying is farcically cheap in this context, as if it's somehow a measure of commitment rather than a personal tragedy. Separate issues anyway. Gardaí get shot by scumbags but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be masks worn on public transport.

It was simplistic drivel. I think you are best off avoiding him or his ilk.

km79

* Extra funding for hundreds of additional substitute teachers and support staff due to an anticipated increase in sick leave.
This is good and absolutely essential

Surplus primary school teachers may also be allowed work at second level in key subjects on a temporary basis;
This is nonsense . Firstly will primary level not require extra teachers ? Secondly and most importantly they are completely different curricula. If it was purely in a supervisory capacity on short notice for a day etc then that’s fine . But for anything beyond that no way . Primary teachers are not qualified to teach secondary level and vice versa . Speaking as a parent I would be very worried if my son had a teacher in this situation for any period of time .

* Curriculum changes to take account of lost learning, including greater choice of questions for students in State exams;
That’s fair

* Enhancing cleaning and hygiene routines, with hand sanitiser and personal protective equipment to be centrally procured and distributed to schools;
Essential

* Administrative supports for school principals to help plan for school reopening;
Fair and probably essential

* A major emphasis on student wellbeing and enhanced access to guidance and other supports;

Wellbeing hours at Junior Cycle are at 400 hours from September. This has already impacted greatly on hours available to all other subjects. The same subjects that teachers and students are stressing over due to lack of time to complete. More time needs to be given back to teaching and learning next year imo to ease this stress . If they mean putting more guidance counselors back into schools though that is good . But I doubt it . Sounds like lip service with “student wellbeing “ just been thrown in there for the sake of it as usual .
* A €75 million fund to allow schools to reconfigure their classrooms and toilet facilities over the coming weeks to allow for physical distancing of students.[/quote]
Good but probably won’t be enough for some larger/older schools

No mention of remotes teaching/communication guidelines.
Hopefully that will be dealt with too