Police Shooting USA. Rayshard Brooks.

weldoninhio

Overheal wrote: »

How? Statistical evidence shows blacks are 2.5x more likely to be killed by police than whites?

How many more times likely are blacks likely to be involved in violent crimes than whites?? If it’s more than 2.5% then whites are being killed by cops disproportionately.

Donald Trump

froog wrote: »

i lived in the US for 3 years.

and once again you and others keep showing statistics that show total deaths, taking no account of proportion of the population. i suspect most of you know that though.

"Once again".


I have made about 4 posts in this thread. All within the last hour and only one with stats.


You are free to twist the stats however you wish. "black" people are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than "white". That is conditioned only on colour. Not on socio-economic status or education or where they live. As I am sure you will know, given you lived there too (I lived there also, for longer than you), "black areas" tend to be poorer and "blacks" proportionally commit more crime (correlated to environment of course).

While there may be drug-dealers/shoplifters/burglars from Foxrock, most people would accept that there would statistically be higher proportions of population involved in those activities deprived areas such as Darndale or Crumlin or Westmeath.



If you want to "solve" the issues then you need to start by solving the social issues and imbalances first. Not trying to put a virtuous sticking plaster on the other end of the process.

weldoninhio

froog wrote: »

what the hell has that got to do with anything? we're talking about deaths of people by police. the guys who are entrusted with keeping people safe and given lethal weapons to perform that function.

“A new peer-reviewed study of fatal police shootings says that white officers are not more likely to shoot and kill minority suspects“

Rows Grower

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Did the taser injury or kill the cop?

They could shot to injury stop not kill

We'll leave it there so.

froog

weldoninhio wrote: »

How many more times likely are blacks likely to be involved in violent crimes than whites?? If it’s more than 2.5% then whites are being killed by cops disproportionately.

How much more likely are unarmed black people to be killed by police than whites?

ExMachina1000

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Black people are citizens and pay tax as well. They have the right to the protection of the police as they pay for it too.

They are out protesting against police. If you think individual officers wint remember that fact going forward and treat them differently then you are wrong.

Why put themselves at risk for a section of society who wants them defunded, calls the murderers and in some cases wants them abolished altogether.
Leave them to sort their own problems

froog

Donald Trump wrote: »

"Once again".


I have made about 4 posts in this thread. All within the last hour and only one with stats.


You are free to twist the stats however you wish. "black" people are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than "white". That is conditioned only on colour. Not on socio-economic status or education or where they live. As I am sure you will know, given you lived there too (I lived there also, for longer than you), "black areas" tend to be poorer and "blacks" proportionally commit more crime (correlated to environment of course).

While there may be drug-dealers/shoplifters/burglars from Foxrock, most people would accept that there would statistically be higher proportions of population involved in those activities deprived areas such as Darndale or Crumlin or Westmeath.



If you want to "solve" the issues then you need to start by solving the social issues and imbalances first. Not trying to put a virtuous sticking plaster on the other end of the process.

I've explained this a few times now and you and others either ignore what i'm saying or don't understand it.

If you want to know if there is systemic racism at play with police killings you need to look at just one metric. What is the probability of being shot dead when you are unarmed. If there is no racism then you would expect the probability for whites and blacks to be the same. It is not. You are far more likely to be killed as a black person.

I can't dumb it down any more than that I'm afraid.

patsman07

froog wrote: »

How much more likely are unarmed black people to be killed by police than whites?

They are more likely to be killed by the police because they are over represented in crime.



When you correct for this, they are actually less likely to be killed by a white officer than whites are. This is what the data shows.

jam_mac_jam

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

They are out protesting against police. If you think individual officers wint remember that fact going forward and treat them differently then you are wrong.

Why put themselves at risk for a section of society who wants them defunded, calls the murderers and in some cases wants them abolished altogether.
Leave them to sort their own problems

Them, as if they are one group who all think and act the same?

All citizens of the US have the same rights. Regardless of the fact they may question police budgets.

They are also not the only race protesting. And not the only race that suffer police brutality that would cause people to protest.

weldoninhio

froog wrote: »

How much more likely are unarmed black people to be killed by police than whites?

13% of the population making up 52% of all violent crimes. Of course a higher percentage will be killed. Yet more white people are killed every year. Maybe the US needs a #WLM movement?

froog

weldoninhio wrote: »

13% of the population making up 52% of all violent crimes. Of course a higher percentage will be killed. Yet more white people are killed every year. Maybe the US needs a #WLM movement?

Unarmed. Did you the miss the part where I've said unarmed in several posts? It's important if you want to understand what I'm saying.

Donald Trump

froog wrote: »

I've explained this a few times now and you and others either ignore what i'm saying or don't understand it.

If you want to know if there is systemic racism at play with police killings you need to look at just one metric. What is the probability of being shot dead when you are unarmed. If there is no racism then you would expect the probability for whites and blacks to be the same. It is not. You are far more likely to be killed as a black person.

I can't dumb it down any more than that I'm afraid.

No. You need to control for other factors.


I mean *you* don't *have* to if you don't want to, and in case it doesn't fit your own narrative/idea, but scientifically speaking, if you want to look at numbers and use them for formulate an argument, then you need to control for those factors to determine if any differences are statistically significant or not.


"dumbing it down" will lead you to false conclusions which may be where your own angle is coming from.

ExMachina1000

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Them, as if they are one group who all think and act the same?

All citizens of the US have the same rights. Regardless of the fact they may question police budgets.

They are also not the only race protesting. And not the only race that suffer police brutality that would cause people to protest.

Individual officers will remember and wont forget . Why put your life on the line going into dangerous ghettos where a percentage of the population hate you. It's not safe.

jam_mac_jam

weldoninhio wrote: »

13% of the population making up 52% of all violent crimes. Of course a higher percentage will be killed. Yet more white people are killed every year. Maybe the US needs a #WLM movement?

Maybe they do. Maybe white people and Hispanic people should be protesting brutality and militarism of the police too. Doesn't make it right just because it's happening to white people as well.

It's probably heavily weighted towards poverty. There was a white homeless man beaten to death crying for his mother. That's not right either.

froog

Donald Trump wrote: »

No. You need to control for other factors.


I mean *you* don't *have* to if you don't want to, and in case it doesn't fit your own narrative/idea, but scientifically speaking, if you want to look at numbers and use them for formulate an argument, then you need to control for those factors to determine if any differences are statistically significant or not.


"dumbing it down" will lead you to false conclusions which may be where your own angle is coming from.

I'm dumbing it down so you can understand it.

Jesus wept.

patsman07

froog wrote: »

Unarmed. Did you the miss the part where I've said unarmed in several posts? It's important if you want to understand what I'm saying.

In the last 5 years, 352 unarmed people have been killed by police in the USA. Of these 145 were white and 123 were black. As others have pointed out, African-Americans commit over 50% of crime. The figures disprove the current narrative.



Furthermore, there is a study, which I'm trying to find, that found that white officers are less likely to shoot at a black suspect than at a white suspect. For fear of being accused of racism.

Donald Trump

froog wrote: »

I'm dumbing it down so you can understand it.

Jesus wept.

No, you are dumbing it down because you can't understand the reality yourself.


It is probably much easier for yourself to understand "evil racists killing poor blacks" than actually look at the systemic problems that are leading blacks to grow up in environments where they are more likely to encounter those issues and become victims.

Millionaire only not

Go to u tube saw plenty videos today what the cops are up against.
plenty hate crimes of blacks giving unprovoked attacks on white people looked like just because they were white .
I always regretted not taking my green card now I’m not so sure little old Ireland hills are beginning to look greener to me .

Rodin

froog wrote: »

How much more likely are unarmed black people to be killed by police than whites?

Unarmed doesn't necessarily mean they're not a threat.

Michael Brown was unarmed. His 6ft 5, 250lbs was definitely a threat.

joe40

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Maybe they do. Maybe white people and Hispanic people should be protesting brutality and militarism of the police too. Doesn't make it right just because it's happening to white people as well.

It's probably heavily weighted towards poverty. There was a white homeless man beaten to death crying for his mother. That's not right either.

I agree I think there is a disparity in the number of unarmed black men that are killed, but there are also too many examples across the board.

If BLM results in better policing procedures, better training, better oversight then this will be a benefit for everyone.

I get that American police are on edge due to the prevalence of guns but just looking at this incident the man did not deserve to die.

I'm not sure it was racist, when it was going well cops seemed fine when it kicked off they panicked.

The PSNI in the north are all armed. Every officer.

If this incident had happened in Derry or Belfast, the guy would have got away. Simple as that.
The police would not justify killing someone resisting arrest for drink driving offence.
They would have impounded the car and arrested the guy later

The guy was running away and shot in the back. If he wouldn't be shot dead here why should he be shot dead in the US.
The US cops just wanted to stop him, they were not in danger, he was running away not confronting them.
There were 2cops after all.

patsman07

Anyone interested in this topic should read this:

https://www.city-journal.org/reflections-on-race-riots-and-police?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Organic_Social

riffmongous

riffmongous wrote: »

I doubt in most other countries it would get to that point

Even then, why not deescalate? Back off, call in back up, convince him to put it down from a safe distance? I hope to god you never apply to join the Guards if you can't think beyond shoot first

How was it 'shoot first'?

They spoke to him, then tried to arrest him using handcuffs, then fought the cop and took the cops taser and then pointed it at the cop!

How far do you want this to go? Gun removed? Couple of people shot?

He was drink driving and in Ireland the Gardai use force when someone resists arrest. The use of force escalates as each option is tried or the situation is escalated by the suspect.

He wasn't shot because the cop was wrong, got excited or doesn't know how to do his job. He was white because he resisted arrest and resorted to violence first

Sam Quentin

Looters, Arsonists etc should be shot...any who surrender quickly and are arrested should spend a minimum 10yrs in prison.

joe40

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

How was it 'shoot first'?

They spoke to him, then tried to arrest him using handcuffs, then fought the cop and took the cops taser and then pointed it at the cop!

How far do you want this to go? Gun removed? Couple of people shot?

He was drink driving and in Ireland the Gardai use force when someone resists arrest. The use of force escalates as each option is tried or the situation is escalated by the suspect.

He wasn't shot because the cop was wrong, got excited or doesn't know how to do his job. He was white because he resisted arrest and resorted to violence first

The guards would not shoot in that situation even if it was armed detectives. The guy was actively trying to get away and he wasn't armed.

joe40

joe40 wrote: »

I agree I think there is a disparity in the number of unarmed black men that are killed, but there are also too many examples across the board.

If BLM results in better policing procedures, better training, better oversight then this will be a benefit for everyone.

I get that American police are on edge due to the prevalence of guns but just looking at this incident the man did not deserve to die.

I'm not sure it was racist, when it was going well cops seemed fine when it kicked off they panicked.

The PSNI in the north are all armed. Every officer.

If this incident had happened in Derry or Belfast, the guy would have got away. Simple as that.
The police would not justify killing someone resisting arrest for drink driving offence.
They would have impounded the car and arrested the guy later

The guy was running away and shot in the back. If he wouldn't be shot dead here why should he be shot dead in the US.
The US cops just wanted to stop him, they were not in danger, he was running away not confronting them.
There were 2cops after all.

No, the psni would not just allow a suspect who is now armed with a police issue taser to simple escape.

Police do not simple shrug their shoulders when a suspect flees. They weigh up the situation and make a judgement call.

joe40

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

No, the psni would not just allow a suspect who is now armed with a police issue taser to simple escape.

Police do not simple shrug their shoulders when a suspect flees. They weigh up the situation and make a judgement call.

He would not be shot dead for that offence here or the north, whether he got away at a taser or not.

joe40

joe40 wrote: »

The guards would not shoot in that situation even if it was armed detectives. The guy was actively trying to get away and he wasn't armed.

joe40 wrote: »

He would not be shot dead for that offence here or the north, whether he got away at a taser or not.

The guards don't have the legal right to shoot a fleeing suspect unless they pose an immediate danger to life.

Our rules of engagement are vastly different to the USA where people are allowed own carbines that fire 5.56 ammunition and use them to shoot other people that are stealing your property.

The USA has not historically considered life that important and their policing mirrors societies views as does ours where we have a different opinion on firearms and again, that's shared by the police

It's possible that a suspect who had just stolen a weapon could be shot by police both here and in the north. It depends on the situation and the person. The simple reality is that person is intoxicated, violent and now armed. If the police believed that person posed an immediate danger to the public then yes, they may shoot.

Taser by the way, something that the civil rights groups here don't even want the police to have because they are so dangerous.

jam_mac_jam

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Imagine having to work as a policeman after a few weeks. How would you know anything about the law. Never mind how to deal with someone with mental health issues or high or how to overpower someone stronger then you without your gun.

In my opinion: a large part of the issue in the US is that at any point in time if you have to struggle with someone, you're better off shooting them dead straight away. You're just one missed-punch or grapple away from the other person shooting you.

It's easy to sit here and say 'they should do this, or that' but at the end of the day, when any random Joe Soap can have a gun in his pocket, you have to be extremely, overly, cautious. George Floyd's death was different, because he had no weapon, was cuffed and out-numbered. But yer man Rayshard Brooks deserved to be shot, as he could just as easily have killed one (or both) of the Police. He managed to get a tazer from one of the officers, so I'm sure a gun would be entirely possible, too (especially if he successfully tazered the police officer at the time).

Police in the US are very heavy handed because they have to be. Get rid of the gun issue and they'd be less likely to be so on edge all the time, but we know that the gun problem isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

You can't swap out the current Police service for a new one that treats everyone like babies, as they'll be getting killed, left, right and centre.

joe40

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

The guards don't have the legal right to shoot a fleeing suspect unless they pose an immediate danger to life.

Our rules of engagement are vastly different to the USA where people are allowed own carbines that fire 5.56 ammunition and use them to shoot other people that are stealing your property.

The USA has not historically considered life that important and their policing mirrors societies views as does ours where we have a different opinion on firearms and again, that's shared by the police

I agree with that, and that is what must change in the US. I certainly don't have answers but America is a powerful country, and societies can change. The love affair with guns is a good place to start.

It won't be easy and it won't be quick and all of society needs to play it's part. If these protests get the conversation going maybe that is a start.

I don't think this cycle of police killings and protests can continue.

joe40

joe40 wrote: »

I agree with that, and that is what must change in the US. I certainly don't have answers but America is a powerful country, and societies can change. The love affair with guns is a good place to start.

It won't be easy and it won't be quick and all of society needs to play it's part. If these protests get the conversation going maybe that is a start.

I don't think this cycle of police killings and protests can continue.

The problem is for the most part there doesn't appear to be a conversation. Just sides shouting loudly and ignoring the parts of reality that don't suit themselves. Sure there's some police and protesters capable of talking but it seems to be very rare.

Even this cop, why did the chief resign? Why force him out before the facts are known? This isn't Justice, it's pandering to mob rule. It's reverse lynching but again, it's the us Justice system and society as a whole.

Then, what else can you expect when your choices are fox or CNN? Both horrible biased and in no way impartial news reporters.