Provided chargers at shops

Sheep Shagger

liamog wrote: »

Was at Kildare Village at the weekend, the carpark with the chargers is still open access.

Thanks, did you pre book a spot and was it that where you had to park? Might just have to tell them we want an EV spot (subject to availability).

ELM327

wait, you have to prebook a space at kildare village?
That's silly.

innrain

Car park A is right hand side.
You just tell the parking attendant you want to charge. If there is an available space they let you take left.

Sheep Shagger

ELM327 wrote: »

wait, you have to prebook a space at kildare village?
That's silly.

Yep and looking last night some slots are already fully booked tomorrow.

liamog

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Thanks, did you pre book a spot and was it that where you had to park? Might just have to tell them we want an EV spot (subject to availability).

No, I didn't. They are letting people who drive up use the car park on the left. To be honest I didn't know they had a pre book system. I was there on Saturday afternoon, there were plenty of spaces in the open car park.

Cyrus

does anyone know who operates the ev charging in the frascati shopping centre in blackrock?

doesnt appear to be e-cars, not sure how you get a charge from it.

MJohnston

Cyrus wrote: »

does anyone know who operates the ev charging in the frascati shopping centre in blackrock?

doesnt appear to be e-cars, not sure how you get a charge from it.

Last time I was in there it was just plug and charge

Cyrus

MJohnston wrote: »

Last time I was in there it was just plug and charge

didnt seem to work for me but who knows, it did say swipe card on the screen but perhaps it doesnt matter

AndyBoBandy

Rathfarnham shopping centre (spotted on Facebook)

Nice that it’s tethered too....

AndyBoBandy

Looks like Decathlon aren’t handing out the fobs anymore, and the security guy just comes out and starts the charge for you.... so cheers to all the folks who took a fob and kept it...

unkel

What's the story with the big announcement of ESB charge points at Tesco shops? One went in on the old Tesco shop in Lucan a few days ago.

Once the free slow charging finishes in a few weeks time, will these charge point be chargeable or will they be free for Tesco customers? A bit like parking is free in Dundrum if you shop in Tesco? Or you get a discount on Tesco petrol stations if you have a recent Tesco shop receipt? If not, then what's the whole point of getting them at all these stores?

Laviski

unkel wrote: »

What's the story with the big announcement of ESB charge points at Tesco shops? One went in on the old Tesco shop in Lucan a few days ago.

Once the free slow charging finishes in a few weeks time, will these charge point be chargeable or will they be free for Tesco customers? A bit like parking is free in Dundrum if you shop in Tesco? Or you get a discount on Tesco petrol stations if you have a recent Tesco shop receipt? If not, then what's the whole point of getting them at all these stores?

when we double the current EV numbers there isn't going to be enough charge points so more infra the better. Also would prefer if charge points had some cost, as i see the same reg plates parked all day in numerous spots.

liamog

unkel wrote: »

If not, then what's the whole point of getting them at all these stores?

It's just greenwashing, we install a charger that isn't really useful for people spending a normal time in a supermarket and appear to be doing something for the environment.

Gumbo

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Looks like Decathlon aren’t handing out the fobs anymore, and the security guy just comes out and starts the charge for you.... so cheers to all the folks who took a fob and kept it...

Been like that since the first weekend. They made the mistake over the first week to hand out fobs.

AndyBoBandy

unkel wrote: »

What's the story with the big announcement of ESB charge points at Tesco shops? One went in on the old Tesco shop in Lucan a few days ago.

Once the free slow charging finishes in a few weeks time, will these charge point be chargeable or will they be free for Tesco customers? A bit like parking is free in Dundrum if you shop in Tesco? Or you get a discount on Tesco petrol stations if you have a recent Tesco shop receipt? If not, then what's the whole point of getting them at all these stores?

I spoke to a guy working on the one in Tesco Rush the day after it was installed, and he told me it would be just regular eCars pricing from August 10th.
So little to no incentive to actually use them.

Incidentally the one in Rush now has a sign up and painted spaces so at least it looks the part.

ELM327

Well if it's paid for like all other ecars SCPs, theres no benefit to it

Kramer

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

it would be just regular eCars pricing from August 10th.
So little to no incentive to actually use them.

This has to be the most ridiculous idea yet, for ECars SCPs.
The vast majority of cars can only charge at 7kW on these.
Most larger Tescos are out of town/city centres, with little amenities nearby.
Most people spend, at most I would guess, an hour shopping in a Tesco.

So rock up for your shopping, drag out your own charging cable, quite likely in the pouring rain, scan RFID/app, connect up, reverse one hour later.

To gain 7kWhs, or likely 30-40kms range, at a cost of €2.50, for €0.50 worth of electricity (home, night rate).
They will be covered in moss & algae before too long .

Who comes up with this stuff .

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

It's just greenwashing, we install a charger that isn't really useful for people spending a normal time in a supermarket and appear to be doing something for the environment.

Average time spent in a supermarket in the UK in 2013 was 47 minutes.
Enough for 60km in an i3, and any other 11kW types.

Seems pretty useful to me.

(you specifically focused on time, not cost, so I'm not factoring cost in here)

Silent Running

Tesco in Wexford is supposed to get these installed, which would be great... if the car park didn't have a 2 hour maximum stay.

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

Average time spent in a supermarket in the UK in 2013 was 47 minutes.
Enough for 60km in an i3, and any other 11kW types.

An excellent example of just how useless these chargers are, who in their right mind needs to add 60km of range whilst doing their weekly shop. Assuming you've bought a car with around 300km of range (i.e. a modern EV), the 60km is only going to be useful on days where you need between 300km and 360km, I suspect for most people, they don't do that kind of mileage on days that they are also doing their weekly grocery shopping.

ELM327

If it were free it would be a good value add but I wont be paying for it.

liamog

They're good for PHEV drivers, they can fill their battery, and have that warm fuzzy feeling knowing that they can make it back home without murdering any polar bears

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

They're good for PHEV drivers, they can fill their battery, and have that warm fuzzy feeling knowing that they can make it back home without murdering any polar bears

.... even though they are charging during the day which is using the dirtiest part of the grid!

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

An excellent example of just how useless these chargers are, who in their right mind needs to add 60km of range whilst doing their weekly shop. Assuming you've bought a car with around 300km of range (i.e. a modern EV), the 60km is only going to be useful on days where you need between 300km and 360km, I suspect for most people, they don't do that kind of mileage on days that they are also doing their weekly grocery shopping.

Useless for you! I'm truly amazed you can't understand that it may be useful for other people though.

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

Useless for you! I'm truly amazed you can't understand that it may be useful for other people though.

Did you follow the example I gave? Modern EVs start at between 250km and 300km of range. Not many are going to use over 50% of their range on a trip to do their weekly grocery shopping. AC charging at supermarkets is a waste of resources. Either you charge at home and don't need it, or you can't charge at home and it's simply not fast enough.

AndyBoBandy

Now if the likes of Tesco installed 50kWh DC chargers, and priced them at rates competitive to eCars.......

liamog

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Now if the likes of Tesco installed 50kWh DC chargers, and priced them at rates competitive to eCars.......

That's it AndyBoBandy, charging is something you can do whilst doing something else. Charging a 64kWh battery at a 50kW charger whilst spending that same 47 mins in the local supermarket is exactly the scenario Tesco should be enabling. The chargers eCars are installing for Tesco now, are more suited to shopping centers like Blanch or Dundrum, where the average stay is over 2 hours.

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

Did you follow the example I gave? Modern EVs start at between 250km and 300km of range. Not many are going to use over 50% of their range on a trip to do their weekly grocery shopping. AC charging at supermarkets is a waste of resources. Either you charge at home and don't need it, or you can't charge at home and it's simply not fast enough.

Your example doesn't matter! There are a multitude of different EVs out there, and this will be useful for someone. It's so weird to me how cliquey and insular some of you lads can be!

MJohnston

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Now if the likes of Tesco installed 50kWh DC chargers, and priced them at rates competitive to eCars.......

Nah, if they just made the AC chargers free, like has been suggested, the value trade would be well worth it.

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

Your example doesn't matter! There are a multitude of different EVs out there, and this will be useful for someone. It's so weird to me how cliquey and insular some of you lads can be!

Then expand on it, because I can't think of the use case where it makes sense and your not elaborating the one that you think does.

I honestly can't think of a valid use case for charging an EV at 11kW for 45 mins whilst doing a grocery shop. It's the perfect balance of a location that you don't spend enough time at for AC charging to make sense, and a destination that you tend not to travel too far too.

My charging manifesto is pretty straightforward. Fast Chargers (~50kW) at Supermarkets, Ultra Chargers (~150kW to 350kW) on motorways and interurbans, and AC chargers at major shopping centers with entertainment and dining facilities, a pretty straightforward process of aligning charging times with visit times, or doing it quickly because you are in the middle of a journey.

Black_Knight

I certainly won't be casually charging at the esb AC points once fees come in, which is great for those who need them, but I only see these ac points as a destination charger now. When needs must. The locations don't seem to have much foresight, as mentioned. Time will tell, but I can only imagine them being very quiet

AndyBoBandy

MJohnston wrote: »

Nah, if they just made the AC chargers free, like has been suggested, the value trade would be well worth it.

Or offer a premium service, and earn money from it.

Every Tesco carpark would be a forecourt, and a source of revenue.

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

Then expand on it, because I can't think of the use case where it makes sense and your not elaborating the one that you think does.

I honestly can't think of a valid use case for charging an EV at 11kW for 45 mins whilst doing a grocery shop. It's the perfect balance of a location that you don't spend enough time at for AC charging to make sense, and a destination that you tend not to travel too far too.

1. Some Tescos being supplied with these chargers are on major intercity routes, so it provides an added backup to intercity travel (eg. Kinnegad, Naas, Mitchelstown, etc).
2. Some people will prefer to use their EVs without any range anxiety, which means being able to charge anywhere you can go, no matter the cost.
3. Provides more options for people without the ability to charge at home (vital as we proceed towards deeper EV adoption).
4. Increases the overall network in less-served locations.
5. Vital for purchasers of second/third-hand EVs with much lower ranges.

If Tesco were to work in some incentive, for example like the €3 discount they give you for using the Dundrum car park, then it'd open up the utility significantly. Let's see!

liamog

Sorry, perhaps I should of been clearer I was asking you to expand on why an AC charger at a supermarket is a good idea. The list you've given looks more suited as to why a 50kW DC chargers is ideal for them.

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

I was asking you to expand on why an AC charger at a supermarket is a good idea.

As someone possibly mentioned already, they're not :P.
Greenwashing.

I'm all for Lidl or whoever, privately paying for these "green" charge points, especially if offering the facility to customers, as a benefit or reward for shopping with them, but ECars?

Just how much of my tax is going to subsidise these installs, on Tesco property?
I'll be paying, not only to supply, install & use them, but have to park at & frequent Tesco now too?

That's it - I'm instructing Mrs. Kramer to cease immediately, her weekly shop at Dunnes & switch all future grocery shopping to Tesco, for the free paid for, charging :pac:.

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

Sorry, perhaps I should of been clearer I was asking you to expand on why an AC charger at a supermarket is a good idea. The list you've given looks more suited as to why a 50kW DC chargers is ideal for them.

That’s a troll response, and you know it. The cost of a DC charger is a magnitude greater than AC chargers.

As a mod, I thought you’d want to go by the number one rule of boards—don’t be a dick.

Sheep Shagger

Gumbo wrote: »

Been like that since the first weekend. They made the mistake over the first week to hand out fobs.

Security gave me a fob last week to start the charger (I handed it in as I entered the store.

What's the bet they don't have this issue in other countries 🙄

Kramer

MJohnston wrote: »

The cost of a DC charger is a magnitude greater than AC chargers.

I think some BEVs come with their own on-board chargers .

Just because others have contrary opinions to you, doesn't mean they're trolls. Most see ECars using public funding to install SCPs at Tesco as........well, not a great idea.

I'm in that camp too .

Decathlon, great!
Lidl - fantastic!
Tesla destination charge points at hotels - yesss! More please!

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

That’s a troll response, and you know it. The cost of a DC charger is a magnitude greater than AC chargers.

I'm actually trying to get to the bottom of why you think AC charging for 45 mins and gaining 30 to 50km of range is in anyway useful. The reasons you provided do not address my question.

45 mins of AC charging at 11kW doesn't help with any of the reasons you listed. I wasn't sure if you'd misunderstood my question.

1. Major Intercity Routes
- If your on an intercity journey you need to fill the battery and move on, not add 20% whilst buying groceries.

2. Range Anxiety
- not really sure how a charger that doesn't help you charge, helps with range anxiety.

3. Options for people who can't charge at home
- if you can't charge at home, adding 30km to 50km whilst doing your weekly shop isn't going to make a difference

4. Increase the network
- it increases the part of the network that isn't useful, hence my point that its a waste and is greenwashing by Tesco.

5. Vital for 2nd hand EVs with low range
- these are going to gain even less range during a weekly shop, as someone who drives a 2014 EV with a 16kWh usable battery, the availability of a slow charger has zero impact on my plans. I travel extensively around the Dublin area, knowing that there are plenty of DC chargers that I can do a 20 min top up on, I wouldn't expect to go to Rathmines and be stuck for 4 hours as that's the best Tesco could provide.

Your only argument that makes any sense for Tesco funding these is that they are cheaper than a DC charger, so back to my greenwashing accusation.

liamog

If Tesco were funding the installation of the 44kW DC Lite chargers that eCars have been rolling out in assorted locations, then it would actually help the reasons you listed, and be far more useful to the majority of EV drivers.

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

I'm actually trying to get to the bottom of why you think AC charging for 45 mins and gaining 30 to 50km of range is in anyway useful. The reasons you provided do not address my question.

I’m sorry but this is just moving the goalposts stuff. Now this is suddenly what it’s about? Now it’s only 30-50km range? Where did that come from?

Let’s go back to the original question—are these chargers useful? 47 minutes may be an average time spent in a supermarket, but that doesn’t prevent people from staying longer, which of course increases the utility value of the chargers.

45 mins of AC charging at 11kW doesn't help with any of the reasons you listed. I wasn't sure if you'd misunderstood my question.

Come on, don’t gaslight it here, you made a cheeky comment about me instead ‘describing why DC chargers would be suitable’. Unconstructive, but grand.

1. Major Intercity Routes
- If your on an intercity journey you need to fill the battery and move on, not add 20% whilst buying groceries.

Why are you focusing on groceries? Can’t these chargers be useful for people just stopping for a charge? Have you been in the bigger Tesco Extras recently? They’re not just a Tesco, there’s usually at least a full Costa cafe, there’s toilets, and places like the Naas Extra have a bunch of other shops and restaurants nearby. Tesco stores are rarely standalone things, so there’s no reason you’d need to spend your entire time at the Tesco while charging.

2. Range Anxiety
- not really sure how a charger that doesn't help you charge, helps with range anxiety.

I’ve no idea what this means, unless you’re just being snarky again?

3. Options for people who can't charge at home
- if you can't charge at home, adding 30km to 50km whilst doing your weekly shop isn't going to make a difference

Again, you’re putting the 30-50km limit on this. I’d note that what I originally mentioned was approx 60km in 47 mins at 11kW but you seem to want to minimise that for whatever reason.

If someone has to rely on the public charging network, they’ll have more options to do so, that’s my point.

4. Increase the network
- it increases the part of the network that isn't useful, hence my point that its a waste and is greenwashing by Tesco.

Now perhaps you can explain—wasteful how exactly?

Your only argument that makes any sense for Tesco funding these is that they are cheaper than a DC charger, so back to my greenwashing accusation.

It’s only this so-called “greenwashing” (whatever that is, exactly) when you limit the conditions of utility like you have done above.

Or you could accept that there’s an increasing diversity of EV owners, and they’re going to be using the public network *very* differently from early adopters.

These chargers will be useful for some people. Not you, I get it. But some people.

Kramer

MJohnston wrote: »

These chargers will be useful for some people. Not you, I get it. But some people.

No they won't. They'll be completely unused after the initial novelty for new EV owners wears off.
They will be, in effect, the chocolate teapots of chargers charge points.

I know, I know, my opinion & Liam's, unkel's etc. are wrong, we're trolling/gaslighting etc.
Do you work for Tesco?

It was thought Liam & another lad here worked for the ESB, unkel for Hyundai (he since moved to Tesla, apparently) & Mad_Lad was with BMW, but maybe we have some Tesco staff here now too?

.

liamog

I think you came up with the use case of an 11kW car charging for 47 mins as that was the length of stay at the superstore, I've rounded to 45 minutes.
A I3 with the 11kW upgrade will gain 57km/h at an 22kW charger, an Ioniq with it's 7.2 on board charger will gain 38km/h. I've taken the numbers from ev-database.org as an independent source. So that put's a 45 minute charge (time to do your shop) as somewhere between 43km and 28km of range. My estimate of adding in the ballpark of 30km to 50km during the weekly shop is based on that data.

Greenwashing is when a company spends money on a measure that appears to be a green move, but isn't really useful but appears to look green.

I'm not actively monitoring the AC chargers, but I've been to the Tesco's in Roselawn and Swords in the past week, both times the chargers have had a single PHEV plugged in, whilst there are plenty of BEVs in the car park. I'm sure there is some obscure use case where AC charging during your grocery shopping (which is what we're talking about when discussing Tesco funding chargers) makes sense.

This all started because you were amazed that I couldn't see how they were useful for some people, I still don't see it.
If more cars came with 22kW onboard chargers, then they would make more sense, but the numbers just aren't there. Zoe's and dual charger Tesla's are about the only cars that really benefit from these installations. I'm a huge proponent of supermarket car park charging, but it needs to be scaled properly to be useful. Other wise it's just a waste (and by that, I mean money spent for very low overall benefit).

liamog

Kramer wrote: »

I know, I know, my opinion & Liam's, unkel's etc. are wrong, we're trolling/gaslighting etc.

No, you've got it wrong, I secretly work for the EU, my goal is to push socialised companies and make sure the Irish lot stop looking at the English for inspiration :cool:!

Black_Knight

I've yet to hear a compelling reason for the tesco chargers. I can only agree with Liam on this one.

There are 4 charge points I'd use:
Fast ones (when I'm on the move and need to charge)
Slow ones (when I get to my destination and require charge to make it home/continue my return leg to a fcp)
Home
Free ones

I get some free juice when I do my Lidl shop, but if that was at 25c/kWh there's no hope I'd use it. Nor would it e330 who's there every Sunday morning before they open.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

Then expand on it, because I can't think of the use case where it makes sense and your not elaborating the one that you think does.

I honestly can't think of a valid use case for charging an EV at 11kW for 45 mins whilst doing a grocery shop. It's the perfect balance of a location that you don't spend enough time at for AC charging to make sense, and a destination that you tend not to travel too far too.

My charging manifesto is pretty straightforward. Fast Chargers (~50kW) at Supermarkets, Ultra Chargers (~150kW to 350kW) on motorways and interurbans, and AC chargers at major shopping centers with entertainment and dining facilities, a pretty straightforward process of aligning charging times with visit times, or doing it quickly because you are in the middle of a journey.

Nothing needed to be added to the above, I'm 100% on board with your manifesto! Now we need to get you a job in ecars or easygo!!

MJohnston

Kramer wrote: »

No they won't. They'll be completely unused after the initial novelty for new EV owners wears off.
They will be, in effect, the chocolate teapots of chargers charge points.

I know, I know, my opinion & Liam's, unkel's etc. are wrong, we're trolling/gaslighting etc.
Do you work for Tesco?

It was thought Liam & another lad here worked for the ESB, unkel for Hyundai (he since moved to Tesla, apparently) & Mad_Lad was with BMW, but maybe we have some Tesco staff here now too?

.

I don’t work for Tesco, and am unlikely to ever use these chargers (although I’m lucky that my local Tesco, Park Pointe, has a FCP at it) except perhaps on a trip to the west where charging options are much more limited.

But I’m also cognisant that we’re moving into a very different phase of EV ownership, and we may even see more 22kW AC capable EVs, and that requires a broader attitude towards charging point placement. So I can’t get on board with the insular attitude that they’re useless for everyone. That’s just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

Gumbo

Decathlon was short lived.

Went there today. Staff can’t find the fob and security has no idea where it’s gone.

Should have just stuck with the Easy Go registration.

ELM327

Yeah that was one of the silliest things yet.

unkel

Pretty pathetic situation. The idiots who decided on the system of handing out the fobs should be reprimanded by higher management.