Provided chargers at shops

zg3409

cruisey1987 wrote: »

What??? That was the only 50kW in the whole town! Who's bright idea was that I wonder?

I think charger was broken and could not be fixed. There is an ESB 44kW DC charger in Drogheda in Bolton square

50kW DC at all lidl and tesco would really be transformative , but looks like they are only commiting to AC for now. A few tescos have DC units for a long time and they are busy, but maybe not busy enough to justify install cost.

ELM327

zg3409 wrote: »

I think charger was broken and could not be fixed. There is an ESB 44kW DC charger in Drogheda in Bolton square

50kW DC at all lidl and tesco would really be transformative , but looks like they are only commiting to AC for now. A few tescos have DC units for a long time and they are busy, but maybe not busy enough to justify install cost.

These were ecars units installed in 2012-2014 for the most part, where the DC chargers literally went anywhere the landowner would allow.
Like Tesco Naas, a terrible location.

AndyBoBandy

zg3409 wrote: »

50kW DC at all lidl and tesco would really be transformative , but looks like they are only commiting to AC for now. A few tescos have DC units for a long time and they are busy, but maybe not busy enough to justify install cost.

EasyGo announced a partnership with SuperValu, installing 50kW units in their carparks. The 1st one is live in Clonakilty. And if they get enough of them out there and installed in SuperValu's they'll clean up!!

Tesco made its bed with eCars, and delivered the completely wrong type of chargers to the completely wrong location!! - EasyGo will be doing the same of course at Lidl's, but at least it's free..

The SuperValu 50kW DC units could be a game changer for EV adoption here.
Go to SuperValu 1-2 times a week, and get your entire week's charging done while your in getting queuing for your groceries etc...


Tesco really missed a trick.

403 Forbidden

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

EasyGo announced a partnership with SuperValu, installing 50kW units in their carparks. The 1st one is live in Clonakilty. And if they get enough of them out there and installed in SuperValu's they'll clean up!!

Tesco made its bed with eCars, and delivered the completely wrong type of chargers to the completely wrong location!! - EasyGo will be doing the same of course at Lidl's, but at least it's free..

The SuperValu 50kW DC units could be a game changer for EV adoption here.
Go to SuperValu 1-2 times a week, and get your entire week's charging done while your in getting queuing for your groceries etc...


Tesco really missed a trick.

Oh, that's great! Don't know if there is any room at my local SuperValu tho! Thanks for the good news!

liamog

Finally a shop based network I can support. I've been having a weird case of imposter syndrome thinking I've been using Supermarkets wrong because I don't spend 2 hours dithering around.

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

Finally a shop based network I can support. I've been having a weird case of imposter syndrome thinking I've been using Supermarkets wrong because I don't spend 2 hours dithering around.

I think 2 hours in Tesco would be enough to make me scream

KCross

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

EasyGo announced a partnership with SuperValu, installing 50kW units in their carparks.

Was that actually announced across the board?

I know the Clonakilty one went live but that, to my knowledge, wasnt a Musgrave Group decision but an individual Supervalu owner decision?

AndyBoBandy

KCross wrote: »

Was that actually announced across the board?

I know the Clonakilty one went live but that, to my knowledge, wasnt a Musgrave Group decision but an individual Supervalu owner decision?

Not an official announcement, but they said on Twitter it would be the first of many. I'd say the plan is to go to each SuperValu individually as that's how they are owned, and work with them. Hopefully as they do more and more of them, it will snowball.

KCross

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Not an official announcement, but they said on Twitter it would be the first of many. I'd say the plan is to go to each SuperValu individually as that's how they are owned, and work with them. Hopefully as they do more and more of them, it will snowball.

I’ve been hitting my local SuperValu for a few years now to do something around chargers. All I get is a diversion to Musgraves sustainability team who don’t seem that interested and cite costs and local owners having to pay.

So it will be down to each store owners openness and forward thinking. I’d say a lot of them will see the DC charge cost and decide they’ll never make that back and go the AC route. EasyGo’s business plan will hopefully help.

Time to fire off another email again I think.

Jofspring

What is the cost to install these chargers at shops/centres?

The crescent in Limerick is a very big shopping centre that charges huge rent. From what I can see they don't have any chargers. The only one is at the county council building next to it.

liamog

Jofspring wrote: »

What is the cost to install these chargers at shops/centres?

The crescent in Limerick is a very big shopping centre that charges huge rent. From what I can see they don't have any chargers. The only one is at the county council building next to it.

Roughly speaking a 2x22kW AC charge point costs around €8,000 a 50kW DC charger costs around €25,000. Network costs are broadly similar. The DC charger will have a higher maintenance cost over time, as the for AC charge points the complicated bits are in the car, whereas the DC charger does the conversion in the unit.

Jofspring

Wow, saucey enough alright. In the grander scheme of things it would be worth it but from looking around Limerick there is an extreme lack of EVs in general. So can see what the uptake here is so small/slow. The last few days that I had to do my shopping I made it my business to keep an eye out for EVs. Didn't see a single car in three trips in the city.

Doesn't help when dealerships are pushing other cars too. My father looked at the Niro and the sales man was doing everything to get him to go for the PHEV instead of the EV.

Be great if the day came when you went into a shopping centre and there was an entire section for EVs.

markpb

liamog wrote: »

Roughly speaking a 2x22kW AC charge point costs around €8,000 a 50kW DC charger costs around €25,000. Network costs are broadly similar. The DC charger will have a higher maintenance cost over time, as the for AC charge points the complicated bits are in the car, whereas the DC charger does the conversion in the unit.

Do those costs include getting power to the charge point? Car parks probably aren't typically spec'd with 50kW power supplies even if the shopping centre itself has plenty of power.

the_amazing_raisin

markpb wrote: »

Do those costs include getting power to the charge point? Car parks probably aren't typically
spec'd with 50kW power supplies even if the shopping centre itself has plenty of power.

Most shops I've seen have a substation out in the car park, easy enough to put a few chargers beside it

liamog

markpb wrote: »

Do those costs include getting power to the charge point? Car parks probably aren't typically
spec'd with 50kW power supplies even if the shopping centre itself has plenty of power.

The supply to a dual 22kW AC and a 50kW DC (like EasyGo install at Lidl, and eCars at Tesco) is basically the same. So the choice between the two is pretty much only down to hardware and maintenance costs.

Kramer

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

EasyGo announced a partnership with SuperValu, installing 50kW units in their carparks.

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Not an official announcement, but they said on Twitter it would be the first of many.

Wasn't it they who recently said they were looking at up to 180, DC chargers at former Eir telephone boxes too?

There must be some amount of capital investment behind them, to be rolling out these hundreds of DC chargers.
Did I miss them on Shark Tank? Is Mark Cuban involved?

.

In fairness, they, apparently, are Ireland's best/largest/fastest/greenest EV charging network!!

Not knocking it and these odd 50kW DC chargers are welcome, but it's ridiculous at this stage, the glacial speed of infrastructure improvement .

ELM327

I disagree. One off installs of 50kW in the middle of towns are frankly useless.

We need banks of multi speed (eg 3*50kW and 2 150kW) chargers on main roads in and out of towns and transit routes. No good having a SPOF 50kW unit in some random town when the motorway is 10km from it!

My car maxes out the 50kW charger for 1.25 hours before I hit 80%.

AndyBoBandy

EasyGo are going to put 180 of these 50kW DC units in, replacing unused Eir phone boxes. Thats probably a reasonably big order, and I'd only imagine they would be getting a lot more units in than just the 180 for Eir.. There's got to be some bulk buying discount to be had in a deal like that?

Surely they'd simply approach a SuperValu and ask for 2 parking spaces in their carpark, and a power supply. Pay for the power used and a nominal rental fee. SuperValu can green wash it, and EasyGo have a network.

Payback might still be a bit longer for them, but they are putting in a usable fast charging network, where it needs to be for mass EV adoption when it comes, particularly rural. It's expansion where expansion needs to be, and you'd guess support would expand too.

meanwhile at ecars, 3 cars can charge simultaneously on 3-4 intercity routes, just as long as one of them is a Leaf...

AndyBoBandy

Kramer wrote: »

Wasn't it they who recently said they were looking at up to 180, DC chargers at former Eir telephone boxes too?

Yep;

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/machines/eir-easygo-convert-phone-boxes-ev-charging-points

Small rural towns will end up with 2 50kW DC chargers if they get a phone box one, and their SuperValu get one in..
Even the DC phone box ones alone will probably kill off the eCars AC22's dotted around. People will want quick 20-30 minute top ups while their doing other stuff, not at a petrol station.

Then let eCars Finally sort out the intercity routes with actual 8+ car hubs....

Kramer

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

EasyGo are going to put 180 of these 50kW DC units in, replacing unused Eir phone boxes.

No they won't. Not in a million years.

AndyBoBandy

Kramer wrote: »

No they won't. Not in a million years.

What makes you say that? They made a big announcement about it...

Calahonda52

One of the things missing from this discussion are the ESB network costs, which are significant.
I am looking at a bill here for 70kVA connection, [10k kWh at 8 cents , 5k at 5 cents costing 1,100 euro], the one month bill is 3,000 euro when all the fixed and other costs are added.
The monthly fixed costs are 800 euro so the economics are just not there for shops.

liamog

Calahonda52 wrote: »

One of the things missing from this discussion are the ESB network costs, which are significant.
I am looking at a bill here for 70kVA connection, [10k kWh at 8 cents , 5k at 5 cents costing 1,100 euro], the one month bill is 3,000 euro when all the fixed and other costs are added.
The monthly fixed costs are 800 euro so the economics are just not there for shops.

How are the economics workable for a 2x22kW AC connection but suddenly aren't for a 44kW DC connection, the grid connection is the same. A 50kW DC connection is not an order of magnitude over the dual AC pillars.

Kramer

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

What makes you say that? They made a big announcement about it...

It wouldn't be the first time a company spouted pure BS for some free column inches. Michael O'Leary perfected it.

Previous thread here.
From that:

Kramer wrote: »

If the headline/text from that article is from the voice interview, it is very misleading. It's a 3 minute odd interview - listen back.

He said "up to", purposely, each & every time. The interviewer even quoted him back with "up to". Up to 180 could mean 10 or 50 or 100.

Free advertising as mentioned, for Eir & EasyGo.

A nothing burger, in modern parlance .

I see they've confirmed a €10 million private equity investment so they'll have some bank, but it's still just free advertising, IMO.

markpb

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

What makes you say that? They made a big announcement about it...

They won’t do it because the entire premise is ridiculous.

Phone boxes require almost zero power. Certainly nothing like a DC charge point. It’s like saying they’re going to build zinc mines on old stop signs.

Phone boxes are on footpaths. They’re not parking spaces and they don’t come with parking spaces So even if the phone boxes had all the power needed, they still need to work with all the councils to re-assign public roadspace to parking for a private company. Not of all them will be suitable for parking.

So if there’s no space and there’s no power, why start off with phone boxes in the first place? You wouldn’t. You would work with landowners who already have the parking spaces, who have a good power supply, who benefit from the passing trade that a charge point brings and who have the capital to invest in a profit sharing arrangement.

Phone boxes is better PR though because everyone knows a phone box near them that is never used.

Jofspring

Also a lot phone boxes have been replaced long ago. I know in Limerick city a good few phone boxes have been rolling advertising signs for about 3 or 4 years now.

Calahonda52

liamog wrote: »

How are the economics workable for a 2x22kW AC connection but suddenly aren't for a 44kW DC connection, the grid connection is the same. A 50kW DC connection is not an order of magnitude over the dual AC pillars.

I am not making any 'comics judgment here.

I trust by grid connection you mean setting up the infrastructure which is CapEx up front and can be grant aided.

My focus here is on the OpEx, which is recurring and not grant aided

I know the last 2 by 22 in a paid car park we did we kept the MIC at 29.

The current PSO levy rates for businesses from 1st of October 2020 to 30th September 2021 are:

PSO where MIC < 30kVA = €21.41 per month (Excl. VAT)
PSO where MIC => 30kVA = €2.78 per kVA per month (Excl. VAT)

850 kW used in Dec 2021 across all four: 121 euro +Vat
MD peak 7.4 A

liamog

No I'm talking about the ongoing grid connection. Circontrol Raption 50 (as used by eCars) requires 53kVA supply to operate at it's full 50kW potential.
The eVolve Smart T (2x22kW AC chargers installed by eCars) requires a 44kVA supply.

We also know that operators can restrict the available output of the Circontrol Raption 50 so it can operate via the same supply previously used for the dual AC pillar.
So where is the extra coming from?

Calahonda52

liamog wrote: »

No I'm talking about the ongoing grid connection. Circontrol Raption 50 (as used by eCars) requires 53kVA supply to operate at it's full 50kW potential.
The eVolve Smart T (2x22kW AC chargers installed by eCars) requires a 44kVA supply.

We also know that operators can restrict the available output of the Circontrol Raption 50 so it can operate via the same supply previously used for the dual AC pillar.
So where is the extra coming from?

Don't quite follow, so have attached bill for 90kVA, if you can paste it in great.

IIRC , for AC, the only one that can use the full 22 is the Zoe so if you stay below 29 kVA then the PSO levy is much smaller and pay the excess charges if you happen to breach the 29.

I will ask the OGP fro the rates behind the makeup of the rest of the bill as they set the prices for the suppliers who win the contract.
Throttling back is fine, however the MIC is key and until there is increased usage we will stay at 29 for the 22's, there is no charge for increasing the MIC, but there is to reduce.
Keep well

liamog

Taking the capacity charge from that illustration, looks like €3.15/kVA for the capacity charge and €2.78/kVA for the PSO Levy.

So to fully connect a Circontrol Raption 50 in DC only mode = 53kVA * (€3.15 + €2.78) = €314.29.
Whereas the eVolve Smart T = 44kVA * (€3.15 + €2.78) = €260.92

If it's the extra €55 making the DC charge uneconimical, then the operator could restrict the charger to 44kW at which point both units will cost 44kVA * (€3.15 + €2.78) = €260.92

I can't see how a capacity charge, makes the 50kW (44kW) DC charger uneconomical over a 2x22kW AC charger, unless the operator actually restricts the unit so it isn't really a 2x22kW AC charge, it's really a 1x22kW+1x7kW to stay under the 29kVA ceiling.
In which case, I'd then argue they should restrict the DC charger to the same 29kVA ceiling.

Busman Paddy Lasty

Cost of €314.29 over €21.41 (€292.88) is a large sum if you have 10 sites for example. Monthly PSO and Distribution Levies of €2,928.80 just for having DC 50kW vs AC 44kW* on 10 sites is a significant overhead for any business.

* really 53kVA vs. 29kVa MIC for clarity. The hedge here with AC 44kW install (on a 29kVA MIC) is the operator betting that 29kVA won't be breached in any given month, saving €292.88 of these levies per site per month.

Mimon

Local Tesco has recently put two points in what was family parking spots. They haven't changed the markings and people are still using it as a parking spot.

liamog

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

Cost of €314.29 over €21.41 (€292.88) is a large sum if you have 10 sites for example. Monthly PSO and Distribution Levies of €2,928.80 just for having DC 50kW vs AC 44kW* on 10 sites is a significant overhead for any business.

How much are you penalised for busting through the cap, we need a pair of Zoe drivers to constantly double connect and bust through what appears to be a very fragile business model.

AndyBoBandy

Mimon wrote: »

Local Tesco has recently put two points in what was family parking spots. They haven't changed the markings and people are still using it as a parking spot.

The spots usually get painted a week or so after the charger goes live.

Busman Paddy Lasty

liamog wrote: »

How much are you penalised for busting through the cap, we need a pair of Zoe drivers to constantly double connect and bust through what appears to be a very fragile business model.

I can check in the morning for a similar MIC connection but it won't be as precise as an actual 29kVA site. It may not be that bad for small MIC sites. If one of your sites is consistently breached you just raise that one and not the rest.

Now that 11kW AC is more common on new cars that model is at risk in future but one connector has to be a Zoe or Model S dual charger and have the other charging. PHEV use is a Godsend for that business model

eCars with 900 AC locations could save €263,592 per month using this strategy.

liamog

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm still not seeing where this comes from. As far as I can find the 29kVA MIC is a limit for domestic customers. The relevant limit for the a business customer would be 49kVA to ensure you remain in DUoS group 5, so again we're back to why is a downrated DC charger more expensive than a similar rated dual AC.

liamog

OK I see it now, its the PSO levy, so a customer with a 49kVA MIC could choose the lower rate for standing charge but would still be in the higher bracket for PSO levy.

How does this work in practice, is each individual charger seen as a separate account, or is it something that's rolled up per company?

Calahonda52

liamog wrote: »

OK I see it now, its the PSO levy, so a customer with a 49kVA MIC could choose the lower rate for standing charge but would still be in the higher bracket for PSO levy.

How does this work in practice, is each individual charger seen as a separate account, or is it something that's rolled up per company?

I dont know if that is correct, I need to find out

In 99.9% of cases, each charging location has its own MPRN as they need a new ESB-N connection.
I know one LA which has hung Christmas lights and a 50 kW from the same , new MPRN, and the charger meter is used for splitting the bill.

We have one 4 plug location (2 by 2 by 22 KW) with its own MPRN
Another 2 plug location with its own MPRN and so one.

On the bill provided, the headline day rate is 8c/kWh but the all in is closer to 13 when u add in all the different kWH charges.

ps just looking at a 60 kVa bill now.
simpler, Low voltage Max Demand, tariff structure but the headline rate is 18.2 incl. VAT, so not much margin if you are charging 28

innrain

I feel we're going a bit in circle but wouldn't you say would be better to install a 25kW DC instead of 22kW AC? At least with DC you have a better control of the output. At the AC if a PHEV is there for 4 hours you deliver 13 kWh while at the DC it only 50% occupancy you could deliver 50kWh. In a year time there is a lot of kWh

Calahonda52

innrain wrote: »

I feel we're going a bit in circle but wouldn't you say would be better to install a 25kW DC instead of 22kW AC? At least with DC you have a better control of the output. At the AC if a PHEV is there for 4 hours you deliver 13 kWh while at the DC it only 50% occupancy you could deliver 50kWh. In a year time there is a lot of kWh

I am just providing real cost intel from the coal face, I will leave the ifs and buts to others.

Its all very well to ask why this and why that. EV charge points are a massive loss leader, the CapEx is grant aided some what but for a CP costing 4K, and annual OpEx of maybe 6,000 at very low utilisation rates..........

Busman Paddy Lasty

innrain wrote: »

I feel we're going a bit in circle but wouldn't you say would be better to install a 25kW DC instead of 22kW AC? At least with DC you have a better control of the output. At the AC if a PHEV is there for 4 hours you deliver 13 kWh while at the DC it only 50% occupancy you could deliver 50kWh. In a year time there is a lot of kWh

Depends how busy the location is versus the capital and maintenance cost of a DC charger. Efacec QC20 is 22kW nominal with a peak of 25kW. This will be more expensive to install and maintain which may explain the absence of them over here.

With the 2x22kW AC your customer supplies and maintains their own cable and inverter for free.

unkel

Back from the lofty hypothetical world of the last few posts on this thread, back down to the real world

Thank you Lidl, I got another 25kWh from you while shopping / parking at your site today for a bit over an hour. I've done pretty much all my grocery shopping with Lidl for many years and I will continue to do so

MJohnston

The best thing about charging at Lidl is it makes the four hours you spend in the checkout queues worth it.

the_amazing_raisin

unkel wrote: »

Back from the lofty hypothetical world of the last few posts on this thread, back down to the real world

Thank you Lidl, I got another 25kWh from you while shopping / parking at your site today for a bit over an hour. I've done pretty much all my grocery shopping with Lidl for many years and I will continue to do so

You've the dual chargers, don't you? Really wish more cars charged at 22kW

Black_Knight

cruisey1987 wrote: »

You've the dual chargers, don't you? Really wish more cars charged at 22kW

ESV ecars must think we all have 22kW onboard charging.

the_amazing_raisin

Black_Knight wrote: »

ESV ecars must think we all have 22kW onboard charging.

Or more likely they don't care that the charge points are only useful to a subset of cars, it's installation numbers for them

DermoMIO

1 EasyGO 07kw charger @ IKEA. 2 spots available both painted green

zg3409

DermoMIO wrote: »

1 EasyGO 22kw charger @ IKEA. 2 spots available both painted green

7kW Max I believe, not 22kW. There since December last year. See plugshare app. Pay to use

DermoMIO

zg3409 wrote: »

7kW Max I believe, not 22kW. There since December last year. See plugshare app. Pay to use

Sorry your correct. Thought I seen on the EasyGO app they were 22

Black_Knight

DermoMIO wrote: »

Sorry your correct. Thought I seen on the EasyGO app they were 22

Are you ****ting me! Pay to use, 7kW only and a bloody overstay fee after 2 hours! So IKEA are trying to incentivise you to get in and out in less than 2 hours, but at the same time providing shag all power to get you back on the road.

Hit the overstay and it's a rip off and you still need to fast charge on a round trip from Cork. 22kW wouldn't eliminate a fast charge on the way home, but at least my car would be the limiting factor (11kW), not the unit.