FF/FG/Green Next Government

blanch152

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Things must be very bad internally in FF when not one but two party stalwarts go public with criticism just two days after MM is made Taoiseach.
Derek Mooney leaves the party and says why in his weekly column https://www.broadsheet.ie/2020/06/29/derek-mooney-you-cant-expel-me-ive-already-quit/?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=web&utm_content=latest_comments#comment-2210453

And Conor Linehan states he fears this is the end of FF https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/conor-lenihan-fianna-f%C3%A1il-faces-possibility-of-extinction-1.4290820?mode=amp

I would be of the same opinion as Linehan (there's a sentence I never thought I'd write) and said so on Sat in this thread. I think this could well be the end of FF unless they can pull off something spectacular - and I don't think they have the talent for it in their ranks. FG have out maneuvered then on the right(ish), SF have out maneuvered them on the left(ish) and FF are left without a clear identity. No one is quite sure what they actually stand for ...

Derek who?

Is that Conor Linehan of 98FM? The Minister for Science who wanted to launch an anti-evolutionary book?

FrancieBrady

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Things must be very bad internally in FF when not one but two party stalwarts go public with criticism just two days after MM is made Taoiseach.
Derek Mooney leaves the party and says why in his weekly column https://www.broadsheet.ie/2020/06/29/derek-mooney-you-cant-expel-me-ive-already-quit/?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=web&utm_content=latest_comments#comment-2210453

And Conor Linehan states he fears this is the end of FF https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/conor-lenihan-fianna-f%C3%A1il-faces-possibility-of-extinction-1.4290820?mode=amp

I would be of the same opinion as Linehan (there's a sentence I never thought I'd write) and said so on Sat in this thread. I think this could well be the end of FF unless they can pull off something spectacular - and I don't think they have the talent for it in their ranks. FG have out maneuvered then on the right(ish), SF have out maneuvered them on the left(ish) and FF are left without a clear identity. No one is quite sure what they actually stand for ...

Martin seems to be firefighting already within FF. Has his desperation to be Taoiseach forced him to take leave of his senses.

A series of gaffs or deliberate actions --- Calleary...ministerial spread...hard to fathom how he got it so wrong. I would have thought more serious thought would have gone into it.
First day and he had anger visible to journalists among the party at what should have been a triumphant event.

James Brown

markodaly wrote: »

I've have been reading some of the comments the past few days, and is it surprising that the same half dozen posters are still giving it yarns?

No, not at all.
They think politics is akin to Man United vs Liverpool.

For me, I wish the government well, as if they do a good job, they the nation as a whole will benefit.

It is the same people trying to make it about SF. Most of us are trying to discuss the new government.
You post this kind of thing ('Been reading the comments for days decided to chime in') when your next shift starts and Bishop made this analogy the other day.
G'wan and watch Netflix for some inspiration.

nc6000

Does anyone know when the junior ministers will be announced?

Professor Moriarty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Martin seems to be firefighting already within FF. Has his desperation to be Taoiseach forced him to take leave of his senses.

A series of gaffs or deliberate actions --- Calleary...ministerial spread...hard to fathom how he got it so wrong. I would have thought more serious thought would have gone into it.
First day and he had anger visible to journalists among the party at what should have been a triumphant event.

He'll be fine. He's at it a long time. There's a sh1tshow coming for Ireland but we could have a worse government and a worse taoiseach dealing with it.

namloc1980

nc6000 wrote: »

Does anyone know when the junior ministers will be announced?

Wednesday apparently.

FrancieBrady

nc6000 wrote: »

Does anyone know when the junior ministers will be announced?

I'd say they are being heavily re-edited atm. May be disruption to normal service.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Martin seems to be firefighting already within FF. Has his desperation to be Taoiseach forced him to take leave of his senses.

A series of gaffs or deliberate actions --- Calleary...ministerial spread...hard to fathom how he got it so wrong. I would have thought more serious thought would have gone into it.
First day and he had anger visible to journalists among the party at what should have been a triumphant event.

Are you saying that Ministers should be selected on the basis of regional spread rather than on ability?

That really gives me pause. If we had had a Sinn Fein government on that basis, we could have seen Violet-Anne Wynne as Minister for Social Protection and Reada Cronin as Minister for Science.

Wow.

tobefrank321

Virtually all the ministers are a stones throw from Leo or Micháel's constituencies.

Giving two fingers to large parts of the country is no way to form a government.

RandomViewer

hoodie6029 wrote: »

He led the campaign in his party to retain the 8th Amendment when his leader wanted to repeal it. He got the public mood badly wrong on that one. Mayo voted 57% in favour of repealing it.

After going against his leader, he expected a full Ministeral role? Michael McGrath backtracked and said he got it wrong and look where he is. Not getting a portfolio is the consequence of his campaign

Boo boo is surgically attached to Mehole, you don't get one without the other

tobefrank321

blanch152 wrote: »

Are you saying that Ministers should be selected on the basis of regional spread rather than on ability?

That really gives me pause. If we had had a Sinn Fein government on that basis, we could have seen Violet-Anne Wynne as Minister for Social Protection and Reada Cronin as Minister for Science.

Wow.

They should be based on ability and hard work and Dara Calleary fits that bill.

As for geographic spread, who knows, but at least one minister should come from an area of one third of the country.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Are you saying that Ministers should be selected on the basis of regional spread rather than on ability?

That really gives me pause. If we had had a Sinn Fein government on that basis, we could have seen Violet-Anne Wynne as Minister for Social Protection and Reada Cronin as Minister for Science.

Wow.

Rather than accept the real-politik of the situation and comment on actual and apparent problems the lack of a regional spread is causing for Martin, blanch on a thread about the government wants to make it about SF.

Wow.*


*why am I not surprised.

LawBoy2018

mariaalice wrote: »

Labour will make a bit of resurgence, I would not be so quick to say SF is the only real opposition.

Very unlikely with Alan Kelly at the reins. Which voters do you think they'd attract? They're basically centre-right, maybe slightly more left than FG but without FG's talent. SF have devoured them.

tobefrank321

Floppybits wrote: »

I know once someone is appointed Leader of a party that the knives will be out for that person but has Martin some sort of death wish with the decisions he has made?

Already he had O'Cuiv and McGuiness against him and now he has managed to make the deputy leader, the party faithful along the Western Seaboard unhappy and also has probably turned a couple of more people against him like O'Callaghan and Byrne.

Plus the way the departments were divded, I am sure FG are laughing now that they have managed to the dump Health and Housing onto the FF. I think if I was a FF party member I wouldn't be a happy camper.

It does feel like Varadkar outplayed Martin with the ministerial picks and probably also with the rotating Taoiseach thing.

There is no way Harris deserves to be retained as a minister, he was awful in the Dept of Health and Covid 19 didn't change that. We have the highest death rate in care homes in the world, one of the highest infection rates among healthcare workers and one of the highest death rates in Europe.

One of the Cork ministers could have been made Chief Whip. Two senior ministers and a Taoiseach from Cork, nothing from the North West, Connacht or Mid West. Madness.

James Brown

Elmo wrote: »

Labour are going to spend the next few years battling SF, SF will ignore them, while SD will (if smart) ignore both Labour and SF.

Look at Labour's resurgence V The Greens, while The Greens have a general worldwide global appeal helping them go from 2 seats to 12, Labour just held 6, SDs up 4 to 6.

Labour are in a very bad place and so far in this Dail they have yet to prove themselves, except to their Die Hard's. Both speaches were more of an attack on SF then the government.

Labour we will work with you when we agree with you, but will oppose Sinn Fein, no hand out to SF (In other words even if we agree with SF we will never agree with SF).

Labour really messed up taking on Alan Kelly. I would love more strong opposition parties. I've hopes for the SD's but they really need up their game from being an afterthought.
If FF cook up a patented FF national disaster both FF and FG will not fare well as they are forever more joined at the hip. That's the best thing about this PFG. The Greens are for the compost heap. Their own fault. SF will remain with high seats, more likely to up.
I hope FF push for social and affordable housing. If we are going to waste tax payer money on cronyism at least get some houses to alleviate the FG crises.
Would love if the PFG was a roaring success but I can't see it considering the last set of policies from a FG/FF government.

For Forks Sake

RandomViewer wrote: »

Boo boo is surgically attached to Mehole, you don't get one without the other

FrancieBrady

tobefrank321 wrote: »

It does feel like Varadkar outplayed Martin with the ministerial picks and probably also with the rotating Taoiseach thing.

There is no way Harris deserves to be retained as a minister, he was awful in the Dept of Health and Covid 19 didn't change that.

One of the Cork ministers could have been made Chief Whip. Two senior ministers and a Taoiseach from Cork, nothing from the North West, Connacht or Mid West. Madness.

I dunno...could Martin be that naive and stupid ultimately? Was there nobody in FF who could have taken a look at the map and seen the issue?

Unless FG threatened to walk over it.

LawBoy2018

Things will calm down in FF soon. I'm actually rooting for this government tbh! Climate change is something that's important to me so I'm praying that the greens don't buckle under the pressure and lose their integrity/values.

Does anyone else think that Eamon Ryan may have given Martin her ridiculous portfolio in an attempt to deliberately overwhelm her and to make it seem as if she simply wouldn't have the time to lead the party? I'd imagine we'll be hearing this particular sound bite repeatedly during the run-up to the leadership contest. Maybe I'm giving some of the TDs more credit than they deserve when it comes to their strategies? lol

christy c

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Very unlikely with Alan Kelly at the reins. Which voters do you think they'd attract? They're basically centre-right, maybe slightly more left than FG but without FG's talent. SF have devoured them.

I'm not sure it would happen but they could attract some of the disgruntled FF/FG/green next time out. No matter how well they do there likely will be some who won't vote for them again.

Could also pick up some of the SF vote as the recession
will make it clear how bad some of their policies were/are.

James Brown

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I dunno...could Martin be that naive and stupid ultimately? Was there nobody in FF who could have taken a look at the map and seen the issue?

Unless FG threatened to walk over it.

No point being the top dog if you give all the key ministries to the junior partner.
Just because FG made matters worse is doesn't mean Housing is to be avoided. Its usually were FF blossom for better or worse. It's also their bread and butter.
Both are responsible for health, but a big part of the problem is we've been getting governments afraid or unwilling to do anything because they worry about votes.
As I've said before I think the public are long ready for some party to be brave enough to tackle it. Kenny had the best opportunity but decided to do nothing but business as usual.

tobefrank321

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I dunno...could Martin be that naive and stupid ultimately? Was there nobody in FF who could have taken a look at the map and seen the issue?

Unless FG threatened to walk over it.

The ministerial picks have Varadkar's "progressive", liberal, urban-centric fingerprints all over them. He thinks anyone west of the Shannon is living in something akin to the stone age. Its FF who will suffer though at the next election. So Varadkar won that round.

LawBoy2018

christy c wrote: »

I'm not sure it would happen but they could attract some of the disgruntled FF/FG/green next time out. No matter how well they do there likely will be some who won't vote for them again.

Could also pick up some of the SF vote as the recession
will make it clear how bad some of their policies were/are.

Wishful thinking from the SF bashers I'd imagine haha. I thought many of their policies were innovative and would have served the country well if implemented correctly, and I have an economics degree. David McWilliams even backed up several of them on his podcasts and admired Pearse Doherty's forward-thinking in terms of the economy. That being said, while I find David McW interesting to listen to, his opinions are more economic theory-based and would be perceived as very radical if actually implemented.

I don't think labour would be the obvious choice for the disgruntled FFers or Greens, but maybe FGers.

Disclaimer: I don't claim to think that my opinion is more valid because I have an economics degree, I only mentioned it to show that I have 'some' knowledge as to how the policies SF proposed may play out if implemented.

Elmo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I dunno...could Martin be that naive and stupid ultimately? Was there nobody in FF who could have taken a look at the map and seen the issue?

Unless FG threatened to walk over it.

The Greens should have said no to Harris as a Minister. It seems strange to me that a person without any 3rd level qualifications could be minister for Higher Education.

I also think that both The Greens and FG should have said no to Micheal Martin become Taoiseach and that FF would have to provide another name (as had happened to FG in the first interparty government).

Though The Green's took easy roles, while I think Climate action is good for them to get, they should have asked for Health, Justice or Reform rather then the wishy departments,

Children, Disability, Equality and Integration
Media, Tourism, Arts, Culture, Sport and The Gealteach!

The could have asked for

Justice, Equality and Integration (Justice)
Health, Disability and Children (Health)
Climate Action, Housing and Transport (Environment)

But then I think they should reduce the cabinet down to 10, 4 from FF, 4 from FG and 2 from the Greens with Junior Ministers with no extra pay.

Bannasidhe

blanch152 wrote: »

Derek who?

Is that Conor Linehan of 98FM? The Minister for Science who wanted to launch an anti-evolutionary book?

A member of FF for over 40 years.
And a member of one of the FF families.

Dismiss it if you want, no skin off my nose.

All the FF voters in my family abandoned them long ago - not that I was ever one of them. Even my 86 year old Mam who has known MM all his life and is still a neighbour of his ditched them. She went SF last time, LP the time before.

christy c

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Wishful thinking from the SF bashers I'd imagine haha. I thought many of their policies were innovative and would have served the country well if implemented correctly, and I have an economics degree. David McWilliams even backed up several of them on his podcasts and admired Pearse Doherty's forward-thinking in terms of the economy. That being said, while I find David McW interesting to listen to, his opinions are more economic theory-based and would be perceived as very radical if actually implemented.

I don't think labour would be the obvious choice for the disgruntled FFers or Greens, but maybe FGers.

Possibly some wishful thinking, but some of the policies were downright stupid. The pension plan for example was but Labour were on that stupid train as well so maybe I'm contradicting myself.

Look I don't know whats going to happen them, but I wouldnt write them off given the standard we see in the Dail.

Bannasidhe

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Rather than accept the real-politik of the situation and comment on actual and apparent problems the lack of a regional spread is causing for Martin, blanch on a thread about the government wants to make it about SF.

Wow.*


*why am I not surprised.

It's almost like they are frit to discuss the actual govt or the records of the coalition parties while in govt.

Having said that, I find myself defending SF who I don't vote for, quite possibly will never vote for, and really think they aren't that different from where FF were 60 years ago - who I also wouldn't have voted for... :P

Criticise SF by all means but do so on policy and their record in RoI and when they become a govt party by all means go for it but this constant whatabout the opposition is tiresome.

intellectual dosser

blanch152 wrote: »

Are you saying that Ministers should be selected on the basis of regional spread rather than on ability?

That really gives me pause. If we had had a Sinn Fein government on that basis, we could have seen Violet-Anne Wynne as Minister for Social Protection and Reada Cronin as Minister for Science.

Wow.

To be fair politics must be played. If the West of Ireland feel they are being short changed by the current government they will cite the lack of representation at cabinet and savage the three parties in the next election. Out of 16 positions could one not have been chucked at the west?

I think Martin has given too much away in order for he himself to be Taoiseach. Its not going to be easy winning admirers over the next two years, FF are likely to come out even worse than where they are now.

FrancieBrady

Bannasidhe wrote: »

A member of FF for over 40 years.
And a member of one of the FF families.

Dismiss it if you want, no skin off my nose.

All the FF voters in my family abandoned them long ago - not that I was ever one of them. Even my 86 year old Mam who has known MM all his life and is still a neighbour of his ditched them. She went SF last time, LP the time before.

Core support base's are being chipped away at all the time.

You can see how (when FG went to 35% as a result of Covid handling) Irish politics is evolving. There is now a sizeable 'vote up for grabs', that belongs to nobody, where once it belonged because daddy voted for x or y etc.. It will migrate to whatever party convinces that they have answers or who have performed well.
That 35% could evaporate just as quickly as it materialised.

Edit, before the SF obsessives get irate- it could just as easily evaporate from SF too.

FrancieBrady

intellectual dosser wrote: »

To be fair politics must be played. If the West of Ireland feel they are being short changed by the current government they will cite the lack of representation at cabinet and savage the three parties in the next election. Out of 16 positions could one not have been chucked at the west?

I think Martin has given too much away in order for he himself to be Taoiseach. Its not going to be easy winning admirers over the next two years, FF are likely to come out even worse than where they are now.

Getting it hard to believe but it is the only rational answer. I knew he was desperate, but if it becomes really obvious who is calling the shots in that coalition FF will take some whack next time out.

CrankyHaus

intellectual dosser wrote: »

To be fair politics must be played. If the West of Ireland feel they are being short changed by the current government they will cite the lack of representation at cabinet and savage the three parties in the next election. Out of 16 positions could one not have been chucked at the west?

I think Martin has given too much away in order for he himself to be Taoiseach. Its not going to be easy winning admirers over the next two years, FF are likely to come out even worse than where they are now.

Who's going to challenge FF and FG in those rural west constituencies?
Independents, sure but there'll always be people who'll only vote for a party.
SF, I saw Pearse raising this issue yesterday and laughed out loud. If they want to reorient SF policy from Urban working-class to rural issues best of luck to them, but it hasn't been their focus up to now and I believe there is a ceiling on their support.