FF/FG/Green Next Government

McGiver

KyussB wrote:

Maximizing GDP like that, even makes the Public Debt reduce faster. Keynesian deficit spending always pays for itself, by maximizing GDP.

Maximising GDP at the cost of higher debt servicing and higher inflation.

How does it reduce debt faster? Elaborate.

Keynesian cyclic and anti-cyclic measures assume generating surpluses and using them to repay deficits/debts during the boom phase of the cycle, but generating deficits and spending them as investments (primarily infrastructure and housing) during the recession phase of the cycle. Have you seen the former ever done?

Most governments forget about the surpluses...

Water John

In effect you are in an extreme, effectively a war situation. Since you can get access to capital at low interest over a long time period, that's what you do. This prevents a deep recession that would have be a much greater shock to the country and its people.

maccored

Bowie wrote: »

How many weeks into this government are we now?



Making it up as they go. Was a time people would argue FF/FG were a good choice based on experience. We don't need that kind of 'experience'.

they're doing precisely what every right minded person thought they would - making a tit of it.

Brendan Bendar

Bowie wrote: »

How many weeks into this government are we now?



Making it up as they go. Was a time people would argue FF/FG were a good choice based on experience. We don't need that kind of 'experience'.

We don’t need folk who want to ‘break the State’ either.

Bishop of hope

maccored wrote: »

they're doing precisely what every right minded person thought they would - making a tit of it.

The right minded dig is a bit disengenuous.

They're ahead of schedule really.
This was never going to be an easy partnership in the first place, but I thought they would at least try to show more cohesion for a while, but it's obvious there's little thought put into how simple policies, like the holiday for pups would be received.
Cowen was a car crash no one could predict, but apart from that they are showing themselves up on little nitpicks.
This has the chance of being a good govt, but unless they consider their policies more cohesively then they could be a major disaster when it comes to big policies that will be needed between brexit and covid.
Two papers telling different versions of how the reversal of the holiday issue was resolved today.
Independent says Heather went to Michael and Leo requesting that it be reversed.
Irish examiner claiming Michael and Leo went to her insisting she change it.
It seems they're even releasing different stories depending on who you listen too.

BonnieSituation

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It will be forgotten in a week....the election will be in 5 years and nobody will care :-) but keep telling yourself they will

Now where have we heard this astute political insight before?

blanch152

Snow Garden wrote: »

Yeah, so I never mentioned RTE as source, ever. I just deal in facts. Maybe you could respond to the post/headline?

Snow Garden wrote: »

The headline on the 9 o'clock news sums up this government...

"Another day, another U-turn"

So the 9 o'clock news is on a channel other than RTE? That is a new fact to me.

As for the headline, that is an opinion, not a fact.

KyussB

McGiver wrote: »

Maximising GDP at the cost of higher debt servicing and higher inflation.

How does it reduce debt faster? Elaborate.

Keynesian cyclic and anti-cyclic measures assume generating surpluses and using them to repay deficits/debts during the boom phase of the cycle, but generating deficits and spending them as investments (primarily infrastructure and housing) during the recession phase of the cycle. Have you seen the former ever done?

Most governments forget about the surpluses...

All spending now has a positive multiplier, well in excess of interest payments on debt - which are at one of their lowest levels ever - which inherently expands our tax base and pays down debt faster. We need inflation now, because we are in deflation.

Keynesian anti-cyclic measures do not mean a surplus - and they never have. Keyne's advocated two budgets: A capital budget (which a Job Guarantee would be a part of), and an operational budget (everyday recurring expenditures) - the operational budget he advocated being balanced in the long run (which can include being in surplus at certain points in the economic cycle) - he did not advocate that the capital budget be balanced, he advocated it be in deficit where needed to ensure Full Employment.

Keyne's would never advocate an overall surplus irrespective of Full Employment, and he would never advocate an overall surplus as a goal in itself - he advocated counter-cyclical policy, that if it ended up in an overall surplus, that would only be incidental to maintaining Full Employment and stable inflation.

Moreover, Keynes came from a time when the Gold Standard was still a thing - without which, there is never a justification for a surplus as a goal in itself, because the scarcity of money is never tied to a physical resource constraint - the only reason a surplus may incidentally happen, is dampening inflation.

Shefwedfan

blanch152 wrote: »

So the 9 o'clock news is on a channel other than RTE? That is a new fact to me.

As for the headline, that is an opinion, not a fact.

Seemingly we are now also supposed to have a response to everything that is said on RTE news because what they say is “fact”

Snow Garden wrote: »

Yeah, so I never mentioned RTE as source, ever. I just deal in facts. Maybe you could respond to the post/headline?

Snow Garden

blanch152 wrote: »

So the 9 o'clock news is on a channel other than RTE? That is a new fact to me.

As for the headline, that is an opinion, not a fact.

Ah yes, deliberately getting it wrong. Lets try again.

I said the RTE 9 News headline statement was 'Another Day Another U-Turn'.

ShefWed said something about me giving out before that RTE was evil or some such waffle. I have never said that. I like RTE and get most of my new from RTE.

It is a fact that the newsreader said 'Another Day Another U-Turn'

I asked ShefWed to address the headline. It was concerning another U-turn in relation to the PUP.

Another Day Another U-Turn

Are you now suggesting they did not say it or there wasn't another U-Turn?

Snow Garden

Snow Garden wrote: »

Yeah, so I never mentioned RTE as an unreliable source, ever. I just deal in facts. Maybe you could respond to the post/headline?

I fixed the post so it is clearer. I like RTE.

Please show me where I ever denounced them. Ever.

All day long clowns!

Snow Garden

Shefwedfan wrote: »

One minute RTE is the root of all evil, are we saying now RTE are great and a reliable source? :P

For the record. I do not think RTE are the root of all evil.

Infantile stuff.

Snow Garden

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/pup-u-turn-government-announcement-fails-to-curb-opposition-criticism-1.4316876

PUP U-turn: Government announcement fails to curb Opposition criticism

Snow Garden

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40024091.html

Daniel McConnell: Another day, another u-turn for government

Another day, another u-turn - and you know things are bad when even your u-turns are not stopping political landmines.

Oh look...

Snow Garden

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/government-u-turn-people-on-pandemic-unemployment-payment-to-be-allowed-travel-abroad-for-holidays-39407412.html

The Government has been forced into another embarrassing u-turn on the pandemic unemployment payment (PUP) and those in receipt of welfare benefit will now be able to travel to Green List countries without having their pay docked.

3 new sources for your FFG U-turns...I'll be your huckleberry

Muahahaha

blanch152 wrote: »

As regards public servants, there was never an issue with public servants travelling to green-list countries, because they won't have to quarantine!!!!!

Michael Martin and his civil servants went to Belgium which isnt on the green list and I didnt see him quartantine for 14 days when he arrived back to Ireland

Government has agreed that the following locations be included as 'normal precautions' on the Department of Foreign Affairs' Travel Advice:

• Malta
• Finland
• Norway
• Italy
• Hungary
• Estonia
• Latvia
• Lithuania
• Cyprus
• Slovak Republic (Slovakia)
• Greece
• Greenland
• Monaco
• San Marino
• Gibraltar

Anyone arriving into Ireland from these locations will not have to restrict their movements.


Passengers from any other location not on this list are asked to restrict their movements for 14 days.

Maybe he had a 9 euro pub meal in Brussels and that means he can go straight back to mingling with the public having come from a Covid hotspot

blanch152

Muahahaha wrote: »

Michael Martin and his civil servants went to Belgium which isnt on the green list and I didnt see him quartantine for 14 days when he arrived back to Ireland





Maybe he had a 9 euro pub meal in Brussels and that means he can go straight back to mingling with the public having come from a Covid hotspot

Yes, and I know someone who travelled for a family bereavement and didn't quarantine for 14 days.

Difference is, that was essential travel in both cases.

Risk management is different from risk elimination.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, and I know someone who travelled for a family bereavement and didn't quarantine for 14 days.

Difference is, that was essential travel in both cases.

Risk management is different from risk elimination.

So they shouldn't self isolate for 14 days upon return? Did Covid number 19 say this was okay?

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

So they shouldn't self isolate for 14 days upon return? Did Covid number 19 say this was okay?

Well, yes, I have explained the difference between essential and non-essential travel in the main thread on this.

If you have been following the issue carefully (away from the let's just criticise FG bubble) you will be aware of all of the nuances.

I'm not black and white on public policy issues in the way that you are.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, yes, I have explained the difference between essential and non-essential travel in the main thread on this.

If you have been following the issue carefully (away from the let's just criticise FG bubble) you will be aware of all of the nuances.

I'm not black and white on public policy issues in the way that you are.

They should either self isolate for 14 days or not. There are zero exceptions. The covid number 19 won't distinguish between business or pleasure.
Seems to me you're giving a yes/no. Doesn't work like that with health, it's not politics.

Limpy

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, yes, I have explained the difference between essential and non-essential travel in the main thread on this.

If you have been following the issue carefully (away from the let's just criticise FG bubble) you will be aware of all of the nuances.

I'm not black and white on public policy issues in the way that you are.

Its not about what you or someone says is essential. That's just your opinion. What matters is what the science says. Is MM or someone attending a funeral abroad at less risk then a regular passenger?

Answer me that blanc with facts.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

They should either self isolate for 14 days or not. There are zero exceptions. The covid number 19 won't distinguish between business or pleasure.
Seems to me you're giving a yes/no. Doesn't work like that with health, it's not politics.

Limpy wrote: »

Its not about what you or someone says is essential. That's just your opinion. What matters is what the science says. Is MM or someone attending a funeral abroad at less risk then a regular passenger?

Answer me that blanc with facts.

Well, no the public health advice is against non-essential travel.

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/travel.html

"Why we don't have a blanket ban on travel?
Ireland depends on ports and airports for supply chains. We need to keep airports and travel routes open.

Some people need to travel for essential reasons.

This might be:

for essential work
to care for family members abroad
to return home"

So Micheal Martin can travel for work to Brussels.

So it is not true to state that there are zero exceptions, it is a false statement. You are entitled to hold the opinion that there should be no exceptions, but the fact is that there are exceptions.

Apologies about the funeral reference, I think we all agree it is wrong to leave the jurisdiction for a funeral, particularly a non-family funeral.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, no the public health advice is against non-essential travel.

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/travel.html

"Why we don't have a blanket ban on travel?
Ireland depends on ports and airports for supply chains. We need to keep airports and travel routes open.

Some people need to travel for essential reasons.

This might be:

for essential work
to care for family members abroad
to return home"

So Micheal Martin can travel for work to Brussels.

So it is not true to state that there are zero exceptions, it is a false statement. You are entitled to hold the opinion that there should be no exceptions, but the fact is that there are exceptions.

Apologies about the funeral reference, I think we all agree it is wrong to leave the jurisdiction for a funeral, particularly a non-family funeral.

Do you think people coming from abroad should self isolate for 14 days? Covid doesn't treat people differently based on whether you support them of not.

hotmail.com

Neasa Hourigan has resigned as Green Party whip after she voted against the government.

James Brown

And now this...

The Dáil's Business Committee is to discuss a request for time to be set aside in the Dáil to put questions to Minister for Social Protection Heather Humphreys, following a statement from the Data Protection Commission which raises doubts about whether welfare inspectors acted lawfully at airports.

Social Democrats TD Gary Gannon has written to the committee as well as to Ceann Comhairle Seán Ó Fearghaíl saying this is a matter of "utmost concern and one that deserves to be dealt with in the Dáil immediately".
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2020/0730/1156514-pup-dpc/

In the rush to scapregoat people they really seemed to have fupped up.
HH still has the passing of the animal cruelty letter on the horizon too.

hotmail.com

Bowie wrote: »

And now this...



In the rush to scapregoat people they really seemed to have fupped up.
HH still has the passing of the animal cruelty letter on the horizon too.

No wonder Humphries looked she had been crying or something the last couple of days. Looks like the government have been acting illegally.

Muahahaha

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, and I know someone who travelled for a family bereavement and didn't quarantine for 14 days.

Difference is, that was essential travel in both cases.

Risk management is different from risk elimination.

The virus doesnt distinguish from people who are attempting to practice risk elinimation over those attempting to practice risk elimination

blanch152 wrote: »

So Micheal Martin can travel for work to Brussels.

Thats not under dispute, he went for essential business even if it did mean going looking for Covid bailout and coming back actually owing money. Our civil servants in the EU clearly didnt do too good a job there, Spains civil servants did a fantastic job.

Martin goes to Belgium, essential travel, fine. But where does the travel advice say that if you come back from a non-greenlist country you do not have to quarantine for 14 days? Because all I can see is the following

Anyone arriving into Ireland from these locations will not have to restrict their movements.

Passengers from any other location not on this list are asked to restrict their movements for 14 days.

It is not saying that if you went to a non greenlist country for essential travel that you then have permission to forgo the 14 days quarantine.

Is there somewhere it does say that? Because if there isnt then Martin is breaking the very same rules set down by the FFG government.

hotmail.com

Surely Hourigan should be expelled now for breaking the whip?

LawBoy2018

I smell a new party brewing! Delighted for Hourigan. The Greens would never give her the boot, without her, Martin is their only female TD.

Limpy

Will HH snake out the back door, will she say I'l get back to you, or will she answer the questions honestly and out the matter to bed. Either way is it on YouTube id like to see it.