FF/FG/Green Next Government

James Brown

Akesh wrote: »

Or perhaps spending over 20% of the entire country's income on social welfare is where the real problem lies.

Yeah, the sick, assistance for low paid workers, home help allowance, pensions, rent subsidies, paying for 25 year leases in private rentals etc.

Could be spent better in some areas.

McMurphy

Akesh wrote: »

Or perhaps spending over 20% of the entire country's income on social welfare is where the real problem lies.

Social welfare isn't just dole - you know that right?

markodaly

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we currently experiencing the ultimate failure of neoliberalism and neoclassical economics, but we ve decided its best to ignore this, and blame others instead, im sure it ll resolve these issues!

Ah, this old chestnut.

Yea, those things gave us the most peaceful, safest, prorperous, healthiest and educated population in history....

I am sure someone will come along now and say something about house prices, as if that negates the huge work done by man in many of the key human indicators over the last 100 years...

High house prices does not negate that huge success.

Wanderer78

markodaly wrote:

Yea, those things gave us the most peaceful, safest, prorperous, healthiest and educated population in history....

Would you say the world is stabalising or destabilising in terms of politically, socially, economically, environmentally, and obviously health care?

KyussB

The_Conductor wrote: »

I never said they were unwilling to work- I said they were unemployable in regular jobs with regular employers (for a variety of reasons, including, but not limited to mental health issues). I also said that Threshold and other organisations bleating on about homelessness (or unemployment) without acknowledging the underlying issues for a significant cohort of the longtermers- and advocating for better provision of mental health services and similar pertinent services (which could in many cases also include addiction treatments etc)- was completely pointless.

We have a hardcore of unemployed people (and homeless people) who are being shoehorned into schemes which do absolutely nothing to address their fundamental needs- by do-gooders who are preaching to them, and the media, that the issue is lack of opportunities, lack of accommodation, lack of jobs etc etc- when the core issue for many people- is getting off booze or drugs- or accessing mental health facilities.

Treating the symptoms- rather than the cause- is an exercise in futility. Of course the symptom also has to be treated- however, only treating the symptoms- and ignoring people's fundamental needs- is setting everyone- including organisations like Threshold, up for failure.

I'd throw a party if I heard that Threshold were putting a similar effort into advocating for mental health services that they are for short term beds in Dublin City Centre.

People have their priorities arseways.

The long term unemployed are made up of everyday normal people - who have no impediments which make them unemployable.

When an economic crisis hits, and people become unemployed long term - that doesn't make them unemployable.

The same way that some homeless people may have mental health or other issues - yet when e.g. a crisis like in Beirut happens, wrecking peoples homes and causing a huge number of people to become homeless (crudely analogous to what happens to jobs and unemployment levels in an economic crisis) - that doesn't mean they or a majority of them have mental health or other issues.

People are long-term unemployed because that's how we choose to run the economy - nothing more.

There isn't an exploision of 'unemployable' people when there's an economic crisis (like a wave of mental health issues afflicting huge numbers of people...) - who miraculously 'recover' and become employable again as the economy recovers - we choose to leave them unemployed.

The root causes of both homelessness and unemployed are in how we run the economy - to focus on putting responsibility onto individuals or individual causes, is precisely to have priorities arseways, and to make excuses for how we choose to run the economy.

Scoondal

In my local area, I want to start a gathering of "common sense" people.
County Cork has a population of 253,000 and 7 cases in 7 days. The new Irish government has destroyed the tourist income. Common sense no longer exists here.
Next year, tourists will have less places to stay and limited eating and no music pubs.

Wanderer78

Scoondal wrote:

In my local area, I want to start a gathering of "common sense" people. County Cork has a population of 253,000 and 7 cases in 7 days. The new Irish government has destroyed the tourist income. Common sense no longer exists here. Next year, tourists will have less places to stay and limited eating and no music pubs.

...and nothing to do with the virus?

markodaly

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Would you say the world is stabalising or destabilising in terms of politically, socially, economically, environmentally, and obviously health care?

All the major trends are still favourable.

Life expentancy is going up.
Less wars then ever before
More people accessing education then ever before.
Women are freer than ever before.
Poverty is decressing.

Anyone who looks at the major markets of human kind will see that in general the trend is up and up.

Forget Trumps tweeting, or all the anger and hate on social media. That stuff is brainwashing people that in general we never had it so good.

KyussB

markodaly wrote: »

Ah, this old chestnut.

Yea, those things gave us the most peaceful, safest, prorperous, healthiest and educated population in history....

I am sure someone will come along now and say something about house prices, as if that negates the huge work done by man in many of the key human indicators over the last 100 years...

High house prices does not negate that huge success.

NeoLiberalism came to the fore in the 70's/80's - from the 1940's until then economics was dominated by Keynesianism, and that was the 'golden age' of capitalism.

Neoclassical economics has existed through all that time (it's inherent in NeoLiberalism, and what is known as 'Keynesianism' is the 'Neoclasical Synthesis' which mixed Keyne's views with Neoclassical economics, despite Keyne's being against neoclassical views) - it is the reason for the failure of 'Keynesianism' in the 70's stagflation (which did not invalidate Keyne's views, it invalidated the Neoclassical Synthesis), and the rise of NeoLiberalism.

Capitalism in the form of Keyne's views, brought the golden age - Neoclassical economics undermined that golden age, and also brought us NeoLiberalism - which has spent the last 40 years gradually reversing all the gains that Keyne's-style economics brought everyday people - and is accelerating inequality and the instability of capitalism.

Stable capitalism that works for everybody, is based on Keyne's.

Brendan Bendar

Scoondal wrote: »

In my local area, I want to start a gathering of "common sense" people.
County Cork has a population of 253,000 and 7 cases in 7 days. The new Irish government has destroyed the tourist income. Common sense no longer exists here.
Next year, tourists will have less places to stay and limited eating and no music pubs.

You got the title wrong,dude, you need to re-brand it to ‘vested interest’ people.

Much more accurate descriptor

Wanderer78

markodaly wrote:

Life expentancy is going up. Less wars then ever before More people accessing education then ever before. Women are freer than ever before. Poverty is decressing.

Life expectancy is actually falling in parts of the states, tensions are actually rising geopolitically, educational related debts are actually on the rise, many women not only have to maintain their traditional roles of caretaking and house work etc, but also have to work, some full-time, and some in low paid jobs with increasing precariousness. A new type of poverty is occurring in the form of 'dept peonage'......

Brendan Bendar

Spinning rapidly........

Wanderer78

Brendan Bendar wrote:

Spinning rapidly........

That will only make you sick, leave it to the kids, it's not worth it

Brendan Bendar

Yep... referring to the plight of the thread .......

Wanderer78

Brendan Bendar wrote:

Yep... referring to the plight of the thread .......

Thread is fine, maybe do what I do when I get fed up with a thread, unsubcribe

James Brown

markodaly wrote: »

Ah, this old chestnut.

Yea, those things gave us the most peaceful, safest, prorperous, healthiest and educated population in history....

I am sure someone will come along now and say something about house prices, as if that negates the huge work done by man in many of the key human indicators over the last 100 years...

High house prices does not negate that huge success.

'Here's my view of why everything is great and theres no issues. I'm sure people will come along with facts to dispute that' :rolleyes:

efanton

Akesh wrote: »

Or perhaps spending over 20% of the entire country's income on social welfare is where the real problem lies.

So you dont want a pension when you retire?

You dont want sick pay when you are sick?

You dont want a statutory redundancy payment if the company you work for collapses and are unable to pay it?

You dont want home help, disability aids, or any other form of state assistance if you unfortunately get crippled in a car accident, have a stroke or heart attack or suffer some other life changing and traumatic experience?

Aren't you the great martyr, willing to sacrifice the very things you might yet need yourself.

The one thing I can be fairly certain about is the very people that bemoan social welfare in all its forms are the very ones who complain loudest when its them that require it.

Be careful what you wish for, none of us has a crystal ball. I personally know a man that was once a multi millionaire, had three separate businesses and is now a paraplegic confined to a wheelchair after a light aircraft crash. The businesses and money are long gone, and now still only in his early fifties he is grateful for the assistance he gets.

You are probably going to argue that this is the rare case, but the truth is that it is those that decide not to work ever are the rare cases. The vast majority of those that get any form of social welfare deserve those supports, and we should ensure they continue to get them.

The_Conductor

efanton - I don't think anyone can seriously argue with the points you're making- however, the manner in which workers in Ireland are taxed in an undue manner- with a marginal deduction rate of 52% on all pay over 34.5k- is very much a concern. Even for those in gainful employment- there is limited appeal in working longer hours or taking on more responsibility- when you're going to loose an abnormal chunk of it- at relatively low pay rates.

In addition- combined social welfare disbursements (under one or more headings- but including accommodation and a free medical card) can make it difficult to financially incentivise someone to join the workforce- sure you'd be mad to, if it cost you more in entitlements than you brought in (to say nothing of childcare costs).

The social welfare system- does need to be reformed- as does the tax system, childcare, and the sheer cost of living in Ireland. These are all political hot potatoes that our politicians have perennially booted into the long grass. We're now at yet another impasse - where we're running out of long grass- and look likely to borrow between 24 and 30 billion this year- with Brexit ready to boot us in the gonads come next January.

Whether we like it or not- we have been living far beyond our means- and money doesn't grow on trees.

We have some exceptionally hard choices we're going to have to make in the not so distant future.

KyussB

What are you on about? High unemployment means we are living well below our means - because we have gigantic numbers of people ready to do useful work, and the necessary resources available (e.g. to build huge number of houses) - and we are failing to live up to our means by not doing that...

Money isn't a scarce resource that you dig up out of the ground - we're not in the gold standard anymore, private banks and central banks create gigantic amounts of money out of nowhere all the time - ready to fund anything which can be financially sustained.

Presently bonds are at their easiest-to-sustain terms ever - and spending on anything which maximizes GDP (i.e. which maintains Full Employment), automatically maximises the financial sustainability of such funding, as it grows the GDP portion of Public Debt vs GDP faster, and increases revenue from our tax base faster.

Scoondal

My mother is in a nursing home in Co. Kildare I have had enough of being treated like a diseased person.
I want to take her out of this situation and bring her to my house.
I cannot believe how cruel Ireland has become.

Wanderer78

Scoondal wrote: »

My mother is in a nursing home in Co. Kildare I have had enough of being treated like a diseased person.
I want to take her out of this situation and bring her to my house.
I cannot believe how cruel Ireland has become.

how?

The_Conductor

KyussB wrote: »

What are you on about? High unemployment means we are living well below our means - because we have gigantic numbers of people ready to do useful work, and the necessary resources available (e.g. to build huge number of houses) - and we are failing to live up to our means by not doing that...

Money isn't a scarce resource that you dig up out of the ground - we're not in the gold standard anymore, private banks and central banks create gigantic amounts of money out of nowhere all the time - ready to fund anything which can be financially sustained.

Presently bonds are at their easiest-to-sustain terms ever - and spending on anything which maximizes GDP (i.e. which maintains Full Employment), automatically maximises the financial sustainability of such funding, as it grows the GDP portion of Public Debt vs GDP faster, and increases revenue from our tax base faster.

Sigh- so you do believe that money grows on trees? I wish I believed in fairy tales too- however, this particular fairy tale does not have a pleasant ending.

All I can do is say- I wish you the very best of good luck- seeing as your and my opinions are so diametrically opposed- there really is no point in discussing/debating this with you.

RandomViewer

The_Conductor wrote: »

efanton - I don't think anyone can seriously argue with the points you're making- however, the manner in which workers in Ireland are taxed in an undue manner- with a marginal deduction rate of 52% on all pay over 34.5k- is very much a concern. Even for those in gainful employment- there is limited appeal in working longer hours or taking on more responsibility- when you're going to loose an abnormal chunk of it- at relatively low pay rates.

In addition- combined social welfare disbursements (under one or more headings- but including accommodation and a free medical card) can make it difficult to financially incentivise someone to join the workforce- sure you'd be mad to, if it cost you more in entitlements than you brought in (to say nothing of childcare costs).

The social welfare system- does need to be reformed- as does the tax system, childcare, and the sheer cost of living in Ireland. These are all political hot potatoes that our politicians have perennially booted into the long grass. We're now at yet another impasse - where we're running out of long grass- and look likely to borrow between 24 and 30 billion this year- with Brexit ready to boot us in the gonads come next January.

Whether we like it or not- we have been living far beyond our means- and money doesn't grow on trees.

We have some exceptionally hard choices we're going to have to make in the not so distant future.

international demand has dried up ,lots of people are going to lose their jobs, the thing is this time the job losses will be hitting the FG voters ,the tech jobs the money handlers, they need the shop workers and the nurses this time, question is will they abandon their brethren or bail them out

RandomViewer

KyussB wrote: »

What are you on about? High unemployment means we are living well below our means - because we have gigantic numbers of people ready to do useful work, and the necessary resources available (e.g. to build huge number of houses) - and we are failing to live up to our means by not doing that...

Money isn't a scarce resource that you dig up out of the ground - we're not in the gold standard anymore, private banks and central banks create gigantic amounts of money out of nowhere all the time - ready to fund anything which can be financially sustained.

Presently bonds are at their easiest-to-sustain terms ever - and spending on anything which maximizes GDP (i.e. which maintains Full Employment), automatically maximises the financial sustainability of such funding, as it grows the GDP portion of Public Debt vs GDP faster, and increases revenue from our tax base faster.

I get where you are coming from but I can't see anyone in the current political system going for it, the idea of state employment as a guarantee if you can't find alternative is a noble idea but the way this country works there has to be a backhander for someone, so costs would make your proposal too costly.

Wanderer78

The_Conductor wrote: »

Sigh- so you do believe that money grows on trees? I wish I believed in fairy tales too- however, this particular fairy tale does not have a pleasant ending.

All I can do is say- I wish you the very best of good luck- seeing as your and my opinions are so diametrically opposed- there really is no point in discussing/debating this with you.

yup, effectively money does indeed grow on trees, in financial institutions in both the public and private sectors, the most common being private sector created money, otherwise known as credit, noting all money created, whether its done via the public or private sectors, becomes debt.

RandomViewer

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yup, effectively money does indeed grow on trees, in financial institutions in both the public and private sectors, the most common being private sector created money, otherwise known as credit, noting all money created, whether its done via the public or private sectors, becomes debt.

FG still uses nineteenth century ideas around most subjects, money, sex ,employment rights

Wanderer78

RandomViewer wrote: »

FG still uses nineteenth century ideas around most subjects, money, sex ,employment rights

to be fair, they re starting to change from their conservative traditions, including money matters, current covid payments could be considered a method of 'helicopter money'

The_Conductor

RandomViewer wrote: »

international demand has dried up ,lots of people are going to lose their jobs, the thing is this time the job losses will be hitting the FG voters ,the tech jobs the money handlers, they need the shop workers and the nurses this time, question is will they abandon their brethren or bail them out

Statistically- the people who have lost their jobs (thus far) are more likely to be ye aforementioned shop workers- than anyone else (reflecting the move away from historically normal shopping patterns).

Certainly there will be some job losses in other sectors (look at the 1,400 jobs that BOI are cutting in Ireland and the UK, the job losses in the airline industry, the 238k people involved in the tourism sector in Ireland etc etc)

I am not sure what you mean by 'abandoning their brethern or bail them out'- are you suggesting hiking taxes further on those who haven't lost their jobs to make disbursements to those who have had the misfortune to loose theirs? Keep in mind- the first money that was spent to pay for the covid payments to workers who lost their jobs because of the covid pandemic- was the social welfare fund for pensions- that is- the money that every worker has been paying in PRSI and USC- towards their retirement- has gone- gone completely- its been spent- its not going to be there for them when they retire.

Our dependency ratio in Ireland- was roughly 56% in 2019 - broadly similar to Italy's- however, even before Covid hit- it was on an upward trajectory.

Magic money trees do not exist (regardless of what some posters on this thread may imagine). Someone has to pay for largess when money is doled out to people- and those 'someones' are having to support an increasingly large number of dependents (younger and more elderly people). We can't borrow money ad nauseum- despite what some people imagine. This is not an option.

Brendan Bendar

RandomViewer wrote: »

FG still uses nineteenth century ideas around most subjects, money, sex ,employment rights

Give us a synopsis of the 21st century ideas you have in mind.

And a full explanation of the consequential occurrence path.

Per favor amigo

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yup, effectively money does indeed grow on trees, in financial institutions in both the public and private sectors, the most common being private sector created money, otherwise known as credit, noting all money created, whether its done via the public or private sectors, becomes debt.

The_Conductor wrote: »

Magic money trees do not exist (regardless of what some posters on this thread may imagine). Someone has to pay for largess when money is doled out to people- and those 'someones' are having to support an increasingly large number of dependents (younger and more elderly people). We can't borrow money ad nauseum- despite what some people imagine. This is not an option.

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